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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






"P4: When a rule allows two ways of list-building, the player who makes an armylist, may chose the way that is more beneficial to him."

I don't know if I'd agree with that either. Just as you can't be sure it's illegal, he can't be sure it's legal.

No one's going to win this debate. (except me, who says it's clearly ambiguous)


"I've still got a job, so the rules must be good enough" - Design team motto.  
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Sometimes I like to to have ice cream with my cake. The downside would be I no longer have room to eat pie as well.

I think the Heed the Wisdom of the Ancients trait advantage on pg 43 of the SM Codex is pretty clear in what it says. It did not place a limit on how many dreds can be taken, or how many can be venerable. If there was a limit other than the maximum of six (three Elite + three heavy) it should have included that.

Heed the Wisdom of the Ancients is a trait advantage that would be balanced by a Minor Drawback on page 45. Is it really a balance to have a minor disadvantage such as not being able to use drop pods? That is a different arguement, but the codex allows it.

Six venerable dreds cost 120 points for just the venerable upgrade portion. That is how much an eight man tac squad costs, sixteen rapidfire shots and 3+ saves. 120 points in exchange for re-rolls on the vehicle damage tables that may wind up being vehicle destroyed results anyhow.
   
Made in us
Horrific Horror






I know that this won't mean much, but I found an interesting tidbit that may help with the "does 'or' mean 'and/or' or just plain 'or'" problem. On page 43 under the "Blessed be the Warriors" Advantage, it says "...may take Assault squads as Elites and/or as Fast Attack."

Interesting

If that upsets your fluff stomach, buy a case of "it's just a game"-bizmo and get over it.
-Mahu

Men are like steel. When they lose their temper, they lose their worth.
-Chuck Norris  
   
Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine




Murfreesboro, TN

Yeah, sorry to break it to you, but that bit has been beaten to death. Old news.

As a rule of thumb, the designers do not hide "easter eggs" in the rules. If clever reading is required to unlock some sort of hidden option, then it is most likely the result of wishful thinking.

But there's no sense crying over every mistake;
You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

Member of the "No Retreat for Calgar" Club 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





- as Ghaz points out, you pick for each one - there's nothing in the trait rule that says "you may pick up to three dreadnoughts as HS or up to three as elites, not both."

I played 6 venerable dreadnoughts at Adepticon, my list was checked, it was found legal.  One of my opponents was a bit surprised, but after reading the trait agreed.  (Pretty simple, all done before the game).

It's legal.

FYI.

   
Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine




Murfreesboro, TN

Damn, wish I'd gone to Adepticon... LOL

As a rule of thumb, the designers do not hide "easter eggs" in the rules. If clever reading is required to unlock some sort of hidden option, then it is most likely the result of wishful thinking.

But there's no sense crying over every mistake;
You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

Member of the "No Retreat for Calgar" Club 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Posted By Augustus on 03/27/2006 9:52 PM

- as Ghaz points out, you pick for each one - there's nothing in the trait rule that says "you may pick up to three dreadnoughts as HS or up to three as elites, not both."

I played 6 venerable dreadnoughts at Adepticon, my list was checked, it was found legal.  One of my opponents was a bit surprised, but after reading the trait agreed.  (Pretty simple, all done before the game).

It's legal.

FYI.



Again, I don't see how you can claim it to definitively be legal. Clearly the meaning of "or" is ambiguous as it applies here.

So while no one can tell you it's illegal, claiming it's legal seems just as dicy.


"I've still got a job, so the rules must be good enough" - Design team motto.  
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




This is slightly as an aside, but has anyone actually parsed out the language of the traits that use the and/or language? Those lead to an absurd result.

Swift as the wind, for example: a bike unit may be selected as "troops and/or fast attack." Fine and good, except and/or signifies either "and" or "or", or both. If it's "and", then the bike unit counts as fast attack and troops - thereby using up two FOC choices. If it's "both," then the sentence is somewhat meaningless, but basically results in using up two FOC choices.

Same as what happens with droppods where you have taken the flesh over steel trait (I think that's the name...).

Manfred on Dwarfs: "it's like fighting a mountain, except the mountain stabs back."

For Hearth and Home! 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Orlando, FL

Sorry to bring this up, but I was bored and read to far back and I came across this thread.  Some things I don't understand...

1) I can understand if the text read, "A dreadnought may be..." then I could pick a dreadnought and say ok this guy is elite or heavy.  The major problem I have with this argument is the text reads, "Dreadnoughts may be taken...".  That means my dreadnoughts may be elites or heavies.  The or statement is for Dreadnoughts.  That does not mean the or statement is for each dreadnought.

2) When we are looking at the Venerable statement it states,"...must be Venerable and the 0-1 limit ...".  That is one sentence.  Although unclear, the sentence says if the Dreadnoughts are slected as elites and the 0-1 restriction is lifted.  I am not sure the sentence allows the restriction to be lifted when the Dreanoughts are selected as Heavies.  It is an and statement and triggered on dreadnoughts selected as elites.  Sorry to bore you guys but I am a programmer and if I write a statment that says:

if(dogs == cats && the sky color == blue)

{

   //do stuff here

}

That means lets check to see if a dog is the same thing as a cat and if that is true also check to see if the sky color is blue.  If both those statements are correct then the code would get to the "//do stuff here" section.  When running this in real time, after the first statement proved to be false the second statement is not even run.  I would contend that the sentence in question should do the same, meaning Drednoughts, when selected as a heavy selection, will not negate the 0-1 Ven restriction.

3) It would be a lot easier to read the elite or heavy selection as a per Dreadnought basis if it was not for the very next trait, "Honor your wargear".  It reads, "....as elites and/or as ...".  I can see if we are flipping between different codexes (is it writen codii instead?) or between the rulebook and a codex.  The sentences are are on the same page maybe a line or two lower.  If there was no differences intended why the different language?  If the or written in "Head the wisdom of the ancients" is the same as the and/or written directly below under "Honour your wargear" why in the world would they write different words?  The only way a 6 dread argument holds water is when or and and/or mean the same exact thing.

4)If 6 dreads are legal, then when I take normal space marines I can read the SM troop options like this....well since I have 10 marines I can go over each and every marine and say this marine "..may be equipted with frag grenades..." then go onto the next marine and ask the same question.

5) Normal SM armies can only have 1 Ven dred.  The player can get that trait advantage with only a minor drawback.  Wouldn't the advantage be large enough when you use 3 Ven dreds...but 6 dreds seems a little out of wack.  Hey that's just me and by no means solid logic.  I just try to play games where both me and my opposition have fun.  Not to mention having 6 dreads seems a little out of wack alone.  It is not the same thing as a 'nid flex, becuase a flex puts limits on the max points if they were elite or heavy.  To me, I think there has to be some difference between elite and heavy choices.

The way I think is most fair is

a) max 3 dreads

b)if they are elite they all may be a ven dred.

c)if they are heavies they are just dread with the 0-1 restriction and you can put other elite choices in those empty elite slots.

Just those three statemts are a huge advantages by themselves and I'm not sure anyone should get any more then that.  We are trying to play a fun game for both sides.  SM's are strong on their own, with the advantage I stated is a pretty darn nice advantage is it really fair to go for a 6 ven dred army?  Honestly

   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





Posted By Augustus on 03/27/2006 9:52 PM

- as Ghaz points out, you pick for each one - there's nothing in the trait rule that says "you may pick up to three dreadnoughts as HS or up to three as elites, not both."

I played 6 venerable dreadnoughts at Adepticon, my list was checked, it was found legal.  One of my opponents was a bit surprised, but after reading the trait agreed.  (Pretty simple, all done before the game).

It's legal.

FYI.


Adepticon is different because there was a FAQ that was covering it
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




The threads purpose was mainly to clear up what the rules exactly say. Now that its still not finally solved after a lot of thought, the topic is obviously hard to solve with RaW.

In actual gaming a 6 Ven Dread army is rediculous. First for beeing against any background (even for me, who normally can make up a good explanation.).

And second for being an obvious failed attempt at sacreficing fun for wins - gaining neither.

If someone comes up with 6 individual, highly converted and very well painted Dreads I wouldnt mind though, since it would mainly be an army for display then.

   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





nevermind


The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance -- it is the illusion of knowledge 
   
Made in jp
Regular Dakkanaut




Slightly OT- apologies...

Raider:
i think thats the points of a trait system. It allows us to make our own background without having to be hammered into a little pigeon hole -> "Blue Marines HERE", "Red Marines HERE". I do agree that for 6 Ven dreads to be played the opponent should put some heavy work into it.

But, since you added an opinion, i felt it necessary to give a conflicting one. Personally i'd thouroghly enjoy going up against a 6 ven dread list. And I dont believe it sacrifices fun for wins. I dont believe its a particularly strong list as a lascannon and at the very least two consecutive threes, will ensure 1 of those dreads spend their next turn looking pretty.
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

In actual gaming a 6 Ven Dread army is rediculous. First for beeing against any background (even for me, who normally can make up a good explanation.).

How much further do you really need to look than the description of the trait?


Heed the Wisdom is a trait associated with Chapters who paricularly revere their Dreadnoughts. They are most likely those Chapters with more Dreads than usual, with Techs who spend a little more time than usual pimping them.

We've never really been told how many Dreadnoughts a 'normal' Chapter has, let alone one that reveres tham above all else...


And second for being an obvious failed attempt at sacreficing fun for wins - gaining neither.

Not seeing that, either. I'd love to have a run against such an army, for the same reason I enjoyed going up against an Armoured Company with my mainly Infantry Chaos army... It's something different, that you don't encounter very often. That, to me, makes it a fun game.


 
   
 
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