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Made in us
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch






Posted By mauleed on 03/23/2006 9:07 AM

That isn't one of my premises.


I used 'your' in an incorrect manner, let me rephrase:

So, if someone states a premise and a single person disagrees then the premise is invalidated?

Or alternately:

P1: Everyone in a discussion must agree with a presmise.

P2: mauleed disagreed with one of relic's premises.

C: Since mauleed disagreed with relic's premesis the conclusion is automatically invalidated.

I don't see what you are disagreeing with his argument since your basic RAW standard is that the rules are permissive, that newer rules supercede older rules, and that a more specific codex rule trumps a general rules. Simply repeating that you don't agree and the argument is invalidated automatiucally is just silly.


   
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Posted By mauleed on 03/23/2006 9:51 AM

"I know you love to live and die by the rules, but the "I don't agree, therefore you're wrong." as an arguement doesn't really fly. "

I'm not saying he's wrong because I don't agree. I'm saying one of his premises is false and therefore his argument is false. That's basic logic.

Simply listing a premise doesn't make it true. You have to either support it, prove it, or get the other party to agree that it is correct. He's done none of those.


In all honesty, shouldn't you be required to prove that Terminators do have terminator armor since the rule set is permissive?

   
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Master of the Hunt





Angmar

@GreenMonkey
He did. Its the "only" that throws the monkey in the wrench.

"Conclusion: The unit entries in the Codex are permissive, which means that you can only do what they say you can do."

Should read:

"Conclusion: The unit entries in the Codex are permissive, which means that you can do what they say you can do."

...which does not prevent other rules from elsewhere in the BGB or Codex from adding to or subtracting from a unit's abilities and/or equipment.

Specifically, there is no rule that limits a unit's abilities to those specifically listed within its unit entry. Other rules contained elsewhere within the codex or BGB, which specifically reference the unit in question, may augment the unit entry itself.

"It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the seed of Arabica that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion."
 
   
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Augh if only I had a codex in front of me! Most of them have a blurb at the beginning of the lists that say something to the effect of "the codex entries list what options the unit may take" which would restrict them to only what the codex lists in that entry. only errata or optional lists would allow you to take something else, not the main rulebook.

   
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Angmar

Ah Ha! And that would be a good quote-premise to help support the argument.

I still don't think it bars the addition of outside special rules, but we'll see.

"It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the seed of Arabica that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion."
 
   
Made in es
Fresh-Faced New User




Spain

I remember to all of you that the main point of this post isn´t to prove that Terminator are equipped with Terminator armour.
The point is that all the people who claim they only follow the RAW to play must recognize that, because of poorly written or unclear rules, sometimes they use accepted conventions or make up rules to be able to play the game.
Thus, for all those people (Mauleed includes) here comes an easy question:
¿Do you always play only by RAW and did never use conventions on any kind to cover some rule loophole?.


Might makes right. 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





<div class="NTForums_Quote">
¿Do you always play only by RAW and did never use conventions on any kind to cover some rule loophole?.

</div><br><br>
Do you mean like the one where I have a line of sigth to unit inside a falcon because the rule say that skimmer do not block line of sigth

We don't have the choice to use some conventions because there is too much things not covered by the rules.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut






Posted By mauleed on 03/23/2006 9:51 AM


In all honesty, shouldn't you be required to prove that Terminators do have terminator armor since the rule set is permissive?


I did, last page.

"I've still got a job, so the rules must be good enough" - Design team motto.  
   
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Posted By mauleed on 03/22/2006 8:54 PM

I would have posted this sooner, but it's fun to see Relic post so much and be proven wrong with so small an argument: (and dakka's been painfully slow)

P1. Models in terminator armor have a 5+ invulnerable save. -SM Codex, page 25 "A model wearing terminator armor have a 2+ armor save and a 5+ invulnerable save."
P2. Models in terminator armor can move and shoot heavy weapons. -SM Codex, page 25 "Space marines in terminator armor are capable of moving and firing with heavy weapons."
P3. Terminators are equipped with terminator armor - Main Rulebook, page 3 - "Terminator Squad - Elite space marines equipped with the virtually impregnable terminator armor...."
Conclusion: Terminators have a 5+ invulnerable save and can move and shoot their heavy weapons.

Bookmark it people.

Relic, I'll patiently await your statement of defeat.


This is the only proof I have seen that you posted andit was on page two. A rebuttal to relic's proof would not prove your own point

The problem with this is premise 3. As the codex is more recent than the main rulebook, and that line is taken from fluff, it does not support your view that Terminators have terminator armor. The proof itself doesn't really address that the terminators have terminator armor, this has that conclusion as a premise.

Since I don't agree with premise three of your proof has failed because it is a conclusion, try again.

   
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Spain

Posted By scramasax on 03/23/2006 11:54 AM
We don't have the choice to use some conventions because there is too much things not covered by the rules.

Well, i did an easy question, and i need only an easy answer: yes/no

Might makes right. 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut






Snoogums, you aren't disagreeing with me. You're disagreeing with the rulesbook.

Good luck convincing the rulebook he's wrong.

"I've still got a job, so the rules must be good enough" - Design team motto.  
   
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Posted By mauleed on 03/23/2006 12:34 PM<br>Snoogums, you aren't disagreeing with me. You're disagreeing with the rulesbook.

Good luck convincing the rulebook he's wrong.


In 3rd edition did the unit lists from the rulebook supercede the codex? No, the codex spcifics (unit options) trump anything in the rulebook. You are contradicting the codex and saying that it is wrong.

If scouts don't get to 'scout' because they don't have the scout rule why would terminators get terminator armor? You can't use a piece of fluff to justify your rules point.

   
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Angmar

Shock Commando:

Due to the pure genious of the BGB, there are always times when one must make an assumption, like when you want to remove casulaties due to ordnance, because if you do not then the game comes to an impass and cannot continue.

Furthermore, if you read the carefully prepared stickey at the top of the YMTC board, you will see that this board is not necessarily about how people actually play the game, but rather about how it is strictly supposed to be played.

No one ever plays uber-strict-RAW 100% of the time. "Always" does not exist. Therefore the answer to your question, for everyone, should be no, due to the lack of a better choice.


Now, if you want to run a poll on how "well-done" everyone likes their rules, post it in Dakka Discussions. Personally, I'm a sushi fan, but I like my steaks good and burnt.

"It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the seed of Arabica that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion."
 
   
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Master of the Hunt





Angmar

Snoog, what you need to do is say why you disagree with the quote in the Main Rulebook, page 3 - "Terminator Squad - Elite space marines equipped with the virtually impregnable terminator armor...."

It literally says that Elite space marines are equipped with terminator armour. Terminators are Elite Space Marines, hence they are equipped with terminator armour.

To disprove this, you need to show how this rule is supeceeded by the codex, or how it is not a rule at all. Simply saying that you don't argee doesn't cut it. Prove that the quote does not mean what it says.

"It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the seed of Arabica that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion."
 
   
Made in us
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blue loki said:
Snoog, what you need to do is say why you disagree with the quote in the Main Rulebook, page 3 - "Terminator Squad - Elite space marines equipped with the virtually impregnable terminator armor...."

It literally says that Elite space marines are equipped with terminator armour. Terminators are Elite Space Marines, hence they are equipped with terminator armour.


I have to agree that it is rather foolhardy to apply fluff to rules. After all, Space Marines are meant to be able to shrug off lascannon shots to the eye (okay, slight exaggeration) but you don't see that happening in the game, do you?

And if you're really going to apply this new 'fluff=rule' philosophy does this mean any Space Marine who is a, or part of a, selection from the Elites category on the FOC automatically has Terminator Armour? So Dreadnoughts have Terminator Armour now? Space Marine Veterans?

See what I mean? Doesn't this strike anyone as silly?

Okay, so the response will probably be something along the lines of: "it says Terminator Squad". Fair enough. But to continue along this 'fluff=rule' philosophy, you have to accept only Terminator Squads get Terminator Armour - not Command Squads, not retinues, not Terminator Assault Squads, etc. etc.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Arseholes need to be kept in check. They do exist and play 40k.

Ironically, they do. So do cheats. 
   
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I don't think that it at all states that elite Space Marines have TA. It says that a Terminator squad is a kind of elite Space Marines, and that these ESMs have TA. However, I'd argue that the codex definition of Terminator squad overrides the main rulebook - just as if a codex offered another version of the movement rules, or vehicle move-and-fire rules.

That said, it is a fluff piece - Land Raiders are hardly the mainstay of a tabletop army, and LSTs aren't flyers. If we're taking background as rules, how does one deal with the line in the Eldar 'dex: 'Eldar also have the most powerful battlefield psykers in the Warhammer 40k game, and in greater ratios when compared to other races'. Are we obliged to assume that Farseers and Warlocks have other powers not explicitly given - powers that they'd need to have in order to be more powerful than a Librarian or Chaos Sorcerer? Do we need to assume that the FO limitations on their numbers are relaxed when playing against Daemonhunters, as every GK is a psyker, and since the Eldar have more?
   
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Blue Loki

It literally says that Elite space marines are equipped with terminator armour. Terminators are Elite Space Marines, hence they are equipped with terminator armour.


Don't forget that trait that allows dev squads to be elite with tank hunter, I guess they get terminator armor too!

mauleed's fluff justification just doesn't fly.

   
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Gotchaye said:
I don't think that it at all states that elite Space Marines have TA. It says that a Terminator squad is a kind of elite Space Marines, and that these ESMs have TA. However, I'd argue that the codex definition of Terminator squad overrides the main rulebook - just as if a codex offered another version of the movement rules, or vehicle move-and-fire rules.

Is it me or is Dakka getting predictable? At 2:30 I predicted that someone will say that "it only says that a Terminator Squad gets Terminator Armour, not any other Elite" and and 2:41 someone says exactly that.

The problem with the 'fluff=rules' argument here is that if only 'Terminator Squads' get Terminator Armour, then any other 'terminator squads' - such as Assault Terminators and command retinues - do not.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Arseholes need to be kept in check. They do exist and play 40k.

Ironically, they do. So do cheats. 
   
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Angmar



snooggums
mauleed's fluff justification just doesn't fly.



I never said it was valid, all I said was that no one has yet prove that it isn't. Gotcha!

"It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the seed of Arabica that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion."
 
   
Made in us
World-Weary Pathfinder




The world is quiet here.

Relic, you are my hero.

Seriously, I love watching Mauleed's exercises in circular logic. He'll never admit he's wrong. He'll just continue to state why you're wrong, no matter how many times you show him that he is talking out of his ass. But it's fun to watch him get smacked around, even as he's denying the smackdown. It's like the Black Knight scene in Holy Grail. Pretty soon, he'll exclaim that he'll bite your kneecaps off...

FWIW, there is NO SUCH THING as playing by the RAW. None. Because the RAW are chock full of holes, and you can't finish an entire game without filling those holes, either with common sense or bullsht, depending on who your opponent is.

"If someone brings 9 oblits and four pies to the table he is pretty much ruining my game. One way I could not let him ruin it would involve a large lump hammer rapidly and repeatly contacting his army/face/groin, but that would probably be frowned upon." - Jessica Dejong on TWF  
   
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Assuming Mauleed?s argument that fluff=rules:

P1. Models in terminator armor have a 5+ invulnerable save. -SM Codex, page 25 "A model wearing terminator armor have a 2+ armor save and a 5+ invulnerable save."
True.

P2. Models in terminator armor can move and shoot heavy weapons. -SM Codex, page 25 "Space marines in terminator armor are capable of moving and firing with heavy weapons."
True.

P3. Terminators are equipped with terminator armor - Main Rulebook, page 3 - "Terminator Squad - Elite space marines equipped with the virtually impregnable terminator armor...."
False. Only Terminators that are either or both Elites and members of a Terminator Squad have Terminator Armour.

Conclusion: Terminators have a 5+ invulnerable save and can move and shoot their heavy weapons.
False. Members of a Terminator Squad that are chosen from the Elites section of the FOC have a 5+ invulnerable save and can move and shoot their heavy weapons. Any other Space Marine, even if they are called Terminators, do not and cannot.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Arseholes need to be kept in check. They do exist and play 40k.

Ironically, they do. So do cheats. 
   
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Rules As Written.

In the Daemonhunters Codex it actually refers to "Terminator Armor" as "Tactical Dreadnought Armor."

I figured I would mention this just to really be a pain and try to derail the arguement some more.


   
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It matters because terminator armor has special rules like deepstrikeing that a simple armor save on a model entry does not have.

I agree with relic on the RAW, codex army list supercedes the older rulebook on what a unit is equipped with. I think mauleed is only denying his argument because he doesn't want to admit that in this case the terminators that fluffily obviously wear terminator armor are not equipped with them according to RAW. I am doubltful that anyone would actually counter this in a game, but hey, this is a RAW discussion right?


Bull....

SM Codex Pages 30 and 31 under each of the three Terminator squad entries. Last line under "Teleport"

A Terminator -_________- squad may teleport onto the battlefield... blahblah teleport deepstrike even if mission doesn't allow it


So that part is also covered, so now we have nekkid marines teleporting around nekkid with all sorts of goodies as I described above.

Second point I will add is that in the "Terminator Armor" section on page 25 it refers to SPACE MARINE TERMINATORS, SPACE MARINES IN TERMINATOR ARMOR and TERMINATORS. The unit entries for page 30 and 31 state in some aspect each of the above three aforementioned titles. They are referred to as Space Marines and as Terminators.Therefore the SM dex does actually refer to Terminator Armor and Space Marine Terminators in the same ruling tying the two together.


Like I said this entire argument has no merit whatsoever. Now take a pill and let this disgustingly ridiculous dead horse DIE.

Check it out, pages 25, 30 and 31

Can you D.I.G. it? 
   
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hemet ca

you guys have no life....

personally i am enjoying thus totally stupid argument and can't wait to read more

Diplomacy is the act of saying good doggie until you can find a big enough rock! 
   
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SM: Codex Pg 12 Second Column last paragraph.

It requires rigorous trainging to fight in Terminator armour and, once trained, a warrior is expected to perform above and beyond his brethren, acting as an example to the rest of the Chapter. Squads of Terminators can also be equipped with a varied selection of weaponry that allow them to fight at longer ranges, but it is for brutal assaults that they are primarily designed.


I think that this PROVES (according to current AMA writing standards) that Terminator are 'models in Terminator Armour'. The problem isn't the RAW, the problem is that you are trying to take each sentence individually and make it its own paragraph.


Please note - terms like 'always/never' are carried with the basic understanding that there are exceptions to the rule, and therefore are used to mean generally...




"I do not play people who blatently exploit the rules to their own benefit, in any game. It is disrespectful to the game designers and other players." 
   
 
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