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 Peregrine wrote:

 Madcat87 wrote:
But what price do shooting units pay to be able to premeasure?

There's already enough randomness in BS/saves/etc making the outcome of shooting unpredictable. Assault, on the other hand, often has very little randomness (assault terminators always destroy fire warriors and the only variable is whether they charge successfully or not) so if you can measure at any time and have fixed charge distance you will often know exactly what is going to happen and have no real chance of failure.

And then of course there's the problem of making a random weapon range system that works well for everything from half-range melta pistols (3") to earthshaker cannons (240"). A random range system that had a proper impact on pistol range would be meaningless for the artillery (a modifier that sets the pistol to zero range would still give the artillery more range than a 6x4 table can fit), while a system that had any meaningful impact on the artillery would give a pistol anywhere from zero range to several times its standard range. You'd have to make a special-case rule for every single weapon, and that's a pain to keep track of. Assault, on the other hand, is simple: 2D6" normally, or 3D6" pick highest/lowest in certain situations.

Assault isn't dead but I fail to see any reason this edition to build a list based entirely around assault when you are fighting an uphill battle from the begining.

Good. Battles in a far-future wargame should involve guns, and if you bring nothing but swords to an artillery fight you should get tabled with no chance of victory.

Angron devastated 70 sectors with naught but 50000 bezerkers, khornate daemons (who are all stabby), and stabby heretic cannon fodder. It took a colossal imperial counterattack to dislodge him.

 Kain wrote:
Angron devastated 70 sectors with naught but 50000 bezerkers, khornate daemons (who are all stabby), and stabby heretic cannon fodder. It took a colossal imperial counterattack to dislodge him.

Because in 40k, despite the entire universe being grimdark hell, nobody bothers to use orbital bombardment or tactical nuclear weapons. And TBH I don't see why the game should represent the worst stupidity of the fluff instead of making at least some attempt at realism.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Angron devastated 70 sectors with naught but 50000 bezerkers, khornate daemons (who are all stabby), and stabby heretic cannon fodder. It took a colossal imperial counterattack to dislodge him.

Because in 40k, despite the entire universe being grimdark hell, nobody bothers to use orbital bombardment or tactical nuclear weapons. And TBH I don't see why the game should represent the worst stupidity of the fluff instead of making at least some attempt at realism.

Or you know, a daemonic incursion on the scale of vomiting out half the world eaters legion from the eye of terror is likely to carry so much Khornate mojo that the very laws of physics would become polite suggestions to the Bloodthirsty horde.

Not to mention that some greater daemons can wreck planets or plunge entire sectors into the warp singlehandedly.

"Realism" Does not apply to an army that can quite casually alter the very laws of reality to their liking, as Daemons like to do. Not to mention that the biggest and baddest of Khorne's servants get quite literally divine protection from cowardly methods of war, an incursion that would involve a huge fraction of the World Eaters, countless daemons, and a metric crap ton of traitor guard and heretics and cultists, would almost certainly see just about every reality breaking trick in the Khornate handbook to force bloody melee.

Plus, if fifty thousand world eater marines are being deployed, the hangers on of daemons, chaos aligned xenos, mutants, heretics, and traitors is likely to number in the billions at the least. All of them bloodthirsty maniacs high on Khorne's favor in the presence of the greatest servants of Khorne. The defenders likely simply didn't have enough munitions to repel an attack on this scale. Not to mention that despite them loving melee, the wiser Khornates have enough sense of tactics to come up with pretty clever ways to make sure they *get* there.

Coming down from Dreadclaws, Jump jets, coming from beneath the earth, teleporting, ripping open holes to the warp and popping out from there, or just crashing the entire damn ship into the planet in the middle of your formation and then charging out screaming "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!" And you can bet that the World Eaters brought a hefty chaos fleet around that probably contained not only regular ships and traitor naval vessels, but militarized space hulks and warp monsters to ensure they have orbital superiority.

Of course said ships probably engaged in an unhealthy amount of ramming and boarding to appease the blood god.

Perhaps I'm just burnt out on trying to get in to CC because I've been playing against Tau lists almost exclusively lately. If I try to drive up to them, squeezing into as much cover as possible, my transports get destroyed and my models are torn to pieces trying to hoof it, also hugging cover. If I try to drop pod or jump pack in, also aiming for as much cover as possible, all the Tau interceptor/velocity tracker shots tear up my units before they even hit the ground. When anything actually makes it into CC range, I have to pray to the Emprah and Sanguinius that I don't roll to short for my charge, because they aren't going to survive overwatch and another round of shooting. Even when they do make the charge range, they suffer overwatch (enter Early Warning overwatch shots) and maybe 2-3 models get into CC. Even Tau warriors are going to beat 2-3 models easily in CC.

Maybe. Try a few games against armies with a stronger CC element. You might both enjoy the change of pace.

 Shandara wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I've had more fun with Repentia and Penitent Engines in 6th than I ever had in 5th.

On the flipside, I've also had some good times with Scarabs and Wraiths and Obyron. If assault is dead, why does everyone complain so much about Mindshackle Scarabs?

Because the overlord with scarabs is very quickly in your face assaulting YOU, not the other way around.

A unit with an assault upgrade is assaulting someone?! The sky is falling!

If assault was truly dead, nobody would care that a shooty army suddenly has a viable assault tactic.

 Phiasco II wrote:
By the way, I'm not looking for a discussion on whether or not 6th edition should continue to focus on shooty armies, but rather if it will.

Even I forgot this caveat to my original post. So, more to the original question. What rules do you think, within reason, could bring assaulting back into a viable option. And yes, I understand that the question assumes that you already feel that assault is extremely disadvantaged. If you don't think so, then don't comment. We've already discussed that and found that people have all sorts of oppinions on the subject, and that is good enough for me.

 Phiasco II wrote:

 Phiasco II wrote:
By the way, I'm not looking for a discussion on whether or not 6th edition should continue to focus on shooty armies, but rather if it will.

Even I forgot this caveat to my original post. So, more to the original question. What rules do you think, within reason, could bring assaulting back into a viable option. And yes, I understand that the question assumes that you already feel that assault is extremely disadvantaged. If you don't think so, then don't comment. We've already discussed that and found that people have all sorts of oppinions on the subject, and that is good enough for me.

Cheaper Assault vehicles/More Common Assault vehicles.

I can't speak for the rest of the armies, but Chaos Is horribly hindered because of this, Possessed, Berzerkers, and so much of the army wants to be in melee combat, but has only one expensive (and the most weakest variant of land raider, that's actually pretty expensive) assault vehicle, and the rest are FAR to expensive to foot slog it out to reach the enemy.

Mutilators have the issue of not having enough models per unit.

If not that, then dedicated assault units need some method of getting places faster, there needs to be a rule for dedicated assault units to Run and Charge, or have these special rules

1: Extended charge range because these units are USED to charging, maybe add this to Furious Charge

2: Able to Run and Charge

3: Something to fix power stars worth of units, in this game as an assault you want the enemy to be able to survive till the end of their turn, because otherwise you'll be murdered. This is in exact opposite of Shooters, who want to be at max strength while shooting! Why is this so backwards!

4: Ability to make vehicles assault somehow, they are so furious they rip open the side and rush out, maybe taking -1AV off on all sides as they disembark and making it assault for that turn.

5: The return of -1 armour save weapons. Return the Berserker Axes to -1 armour, and keep the cost the same, these things were used to rip open POWER ARMOUR not stop at Carapace armour!

6: Melee Chosen need a massive decrease in weapon costs, 1 power weapon is the same as getting a terminator unit and that is completely awful.

Going by the current rules, a fluffy world eaters, khornate daemons, and khorne guard apocalypse force would have never gotten close to the Steel Legion, Space Wolves, and Grey Knights during the first war of Armageddon without something stupid like there being more zerkers than guardsmen.

Khorne is most displeased.

Bloodletters mostly relegated to objective camping makes Khorne said too.

 Shandara wrote:
Bloodletters mostly relegated to objective camping makes Khorne said too.

Pfft, everyone just gets plaguebearers and prays for a gift that gives them FNP. Bastards are nearly impossible to dislodge with shooting.

 Kain wrote:

 Shandara wrote:
Bloodletters mostly relegated to objective camping makes Khorne said too.

Pfft, everyone just gets plaguebearers and prays for a gift that gives them FNP. Bastards are nearly impossible to dislodge with shooting.

Prays? It's a 20 point upgrade that doesn't roll from the herald. One of the Locii