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Just torrent as far as I've seen, and that's not really "coverage" I've been looking as well though.

Anybody know what's in the 3 lists near the top?

Not sure on Vallee

Bajramovic is running seer council w/ Baron, 2 knights, bunches of scoring min squad jetbikes, and a larger ish warpsider unit.

Kopach is running seer council w/ Baron, 4 serpents, some scoring jetbikes and hawks i think and such.

Hoerger is running Cron/Tau w/ Zandrekh and scarabs among other things.

Ah, ToF just listed it as Necrons. I was curious what was in a mono-robutt list near the top.

 RobPro wrote:
Ah, ToF just listed it as Necrons. I was curious what was in a mono-robutt list near the top.

I believe Zandrekh is at least helpful, or intended to be, from talking with Eric before he left. Jetcouncil Eldar is one of the best armies in the game by a wide, wide margin over most things. Given it was legal w/in the comp, many were concerned a lot would be there (2 in the top 4 right now even), so Zandrekh and scarabs were brought (Zandrekh to remove Hit and Run, Scarabs to tarpit a unit full of s3 attacks).

Oh, I see how Zahndrekh is definitely useful in that scenario, and don't forget those scarabs can become S4 on the charge. I was just curious whether there was some type of mono-Necron list that had what it took to get to the top.

Isn't Brandon Vallee the white scars blog dude? I'd hope he's taking the scars.

Edit:Alan pajamapants beat B.Vallee. Is daboyz 6 or 7 games?

Chancetragedy wrote:
Isn't Brandon Vallee the white scars blog dude? I'd hope he's taking the scars.

Edit:Alan pajamapants beat B.Vallee. Is daboyz 6 or 7 games?

Brandon was my teammate at the ATC, along with Mike Mutscheller and Bill Kim.

Good to see that they're doing well, 2 of them at least.

I noticed that when I was looking into people's names ;p. The fluffy bunnies representing across the world(a few of them were ETC members too right?)

Chancetragedy wrote:
I noticed that when I was looking into people's names ;p. The fluffy bunnies representing across the world(a few of them were ETC members too right?)

Yeah, Mike was a member and I believe Brandon was an alternate who often practiced with the ETC members.

Not sure on Vallee

Bajramovic is running seer council w/ Baron, 2 knights, bunches of scoring min squad jetbikes, and a larger ish warpsider unit.

Kopach is running seer council w/ Baron, 4 serpents, some scoring jetbikes and hawks i think and such.

Hoerger is running Cron/Tau w/ Zandrekh and scarabs among other things.

Ugh...Seer Council again proving how overpowered a 2+ re-rollable save is in the hands of good players. I used the Council pre-new Eldar dex for 15 games or so, and hated it. I'm all for cutthroat lists and competitive play, but a 2+ re-roll is bad for the game. Not fun to play, not fun to play against. Something about a nigh unkillable unit matching up the field is just not right. Furthermore, the fact that both Seers/Screamers are derailed only by luck (not getting Fortune/Forewarning, failing a re-rollable Grimiore ect.) is terrible. It is pretty sad to see some of the people that can win with just about anything going this route.

To head off some potential follow-ups, I do realize that I am arbitrarily drawing a line as to what is over the top. I do realize that as a "no holds barred" player, this kind of thing is the logical conclusion of abuse. However, I do think that the 2+ re-rollable crosses a line that shouldn't be crossed. There is something very juvenile about it--like playing games with invincibility on. The community deserves better.

I dont even think the screamerstar is on the same continent as the seer council. Seer council has hit and run + wave serpents and jetbikes. Screamerstar gets demon princes whoopie.

Having played a few games against both now screamerstar is extremely beatable, seer council not as much unless you get insane luck. I do agree that rerollable 2+ saves are broken as all get out especially ones that are almost a given with their huge percentage of being able to get it. If it was a 1/6 chance of having it I don't think anyone would complain or if it was just for a round no one would care.

I dont even think the screamerstar is on the same continent as the seer council. Seer council has hit and run + wave serpents and jetbikes. Screamerstar gets demon princes whoopie.

Having played a few games against both now screamerstar is extremely beatable, seer council not as much unless you get insane luck. I do agree that rerollable 2+ saves are broken as all get out especially ones that are almost a given with their huge percentage of being able to get it. If it was a 1/6 chance of having it I don't think anyone would complain or if it was just for a round no one would care.

That is fair--the Screamers are in no way as versatile or as good as the Seer Council. The Screamer 2++ is annoying, but it involves a larger number or machinations working together.

Seers are super lame though. It's sad to see how common they are becoming this season.

I totally agree JGrand I was talking to robpro about it earlier but seeing guys like tony kopach and Alan pajamapants and others jump to seer council is hilarious and to me. And please don't take this as a shot against either of those guys personally because their track record speaks for itself but seriously. show off your skill not your follow the leader list. That was one of the things I admired about tony is his foot lists in a mech meta taking down the supposed king lists.

With that being said I loved seeing so many space marines on ToF near the top for daboyz. Even if they didn't take it, it was awesome. And I hope to see more.

Chancetragedy wrote:
I totally agree JGrand I was talking to robpro about it earlier but seeing guys like tony kopach and Alan pajamapants and others jump to seer council is hilarious and to me. And please don't take this as a shot against either of those guys personally because their track record speaks for itself but seriously. show off your skill not your follow the leader list. That was one of the things I admired about tony is his foot lists in a mech meta taking down the supposed king lists.

With that being said I loved seeing so many space marines on ToF near the top for daboyz. Even if they didn't take it, it was awesome. And I hope to see more.

I wouldn't worry too much about the Seer Council by the time Adepticon rolls around between Inq and Sisters condemnor boltgun spam lists will look varied by then... at least this is me hoping.

Haven't they already updated the electronic codices to use the GK wording for condemners? For some reason I thought they had been which makes them useless. If not hopefully they start culling out some of the seer councils.

Either way I personally am not worried about either of those lists as I feel they are beatable it's just extremely difficult. And I'm not winning adepticon anyways ;p

Condemnor boltguns got nerfed hardcore, so that they are completely irrelevant against jetcouncil. They cause perils if they wound a Warlock after failing its 2+ re-rollable.

To JGrand's point, a unit that can split into 4 units as long as 1/10 original models survives, 3 distinct separable parts of which can move 48" at will and count as contesting, that can engage and destroy any unit in the game with a 2+ re-rollable armor save, cover save, and 4+ invulnerable save (with a model that has a 2+ re-rollable invulnerable save), hit and run on a 1-5, backed by tons of scoring models that can also move 48" at will and units like Wave Serpents, Knights, etc., are RIDICULOUS, and have no counter in sight other than hopefully a retention of Shadows in the Warp coupled w/ a viable codex (which would solve the problem). With the likelihood of Runic Weapons getting nerfed, the large hope is that Nids will rein it in. We shall see

Edit - I don't want to overstate; the council isn't perfect or unbeatable. It also needs the hands of a skilled player.

MVBrandt wrote:
Condemnor boltguns got nerfed hardcore, so that they are completely irrelevant against jetcouncil. They cause perils if they wound a Warlock after failing its 2+ re-rollable.

To JGrand's point, a unit that can split into 4 units as long as 1/10 original models survives, 3 distinct separable parts of which can move 48" at will and count as contesting, that can engage and destroy any unit in the game with a 2+ re-rollable armor save, cover save, and 4+ invulnerable save (with a model that has a 2+ re-rollable invulnerable save), hit and run on a 1-5, backed by tons of scoring models that can also move 48" at will and units like Wave Serpents, Knights, etc., are RIDICULOUS, and have no counter in sight other than hopefully a retention of Shadows in the Warp coupled w/ a viable codex (which would solve the problem). With the likelihood of Runic Weapons getting nerfed, the large hope is that Nids will rein it in. We shall see

that is what I get for not paying attention haha.

OH well I guess Seer Council till 7th edition or maybe Nids can stop it we shall see.

Not this this is really the thread for that discussion, but it seems like a big problem in 6th is that buffs are insanely powerful. Only Space Wolves (and sometimes Tyranids) have mechanics to actually hinder their casting, and no army (that I'm aware of) actually has the ability to remove a buff from an enemy unit. It seems like there should be a similar mechanic to Deny the Witch available for units to attempt to remove Fortune or Iron Arm from other units.

 RobPro wrote:
Not this this is really the thread for that discussion, but it seems like a big problem in 6th is that buffs are insanely powerful. Only Space Wolves (and sometimes Tyranids) have mechanics to actually hinder their casting, and no army (that I'm aware of) actually has the ability to remove a buff from an enemy unit. It seems like there should be a similar mechanic to Deny the Witch available for units to attempt to remove Fortune or Iron Arm from other units.

It's just hard to say; #1 and 2 in generalship at DaBoyz were Tony and Alan, two AWESOME players who do well regardless. The important point to draw is that what seems powerful but "fine" for the average player becomes incredible and arguably overpowered in the hands of a top tier player. The easiest solution isn't to nerf the buffs, but to put hard caps on how good a unit's save / etc. can become. Therein lies the rub of course.


That said, this discussion IS way off topic. I'm already hearing AWESOME things about DaBoyz from the people I know who were there .... so maybe even though I've been a part of the misdirection, we should redirect it to feedback and coverage of the event

We're talking about the meta that showed up to daboyz, I don't see how that's off topic but either way I agree from what I've heard this was an amazing tournament again and I will definately be making a more concerted effort to attend next year. I was quite bummed I couldn't make it this year. And I just want to give a shout out to a local guy Sam Gould for doing extremely well even though I don't know him well in person.

One last thing like I said Alan' and Tonys track record speaks for itself and I didn't want to single them out because it could have been anyone doing that but they were just the highest profile guys I saw. We could've easily mentioned fennel from 11ty comp GT as well as guys who've switched to seer council.

Well, I know I had a blast, and definitely plan on coming back next year. Great event guys.

The easiest way to end Seer council and anything like it in the future is to never have a best General category. Don't track it, don't acknowledge it, nothing. Let painting, sportsmanship, battle points and comp (Yes comp) sort out the best overall.

When people perceive best general as the highest award to get, Seer council in the extreme is born. When it is removed as a viable category, players adjust or fade away from lack of limelight.

DarthDiggler wrote:
The easiest way to end Seer council and anything like it in the future is to never have a best General category. Don't track it, don't acknowledge it, nothing. Let painting, sportsmanship, battle points and comp (Yes comp) sort out the best overall.

When people perceive best general as the highest award to get, Seer council in the extreme is born. When it is removed as a viable category, players adjust or fade away from lack of limelight.

You propose a system where victory is almost totally subjective. If you win, what does it mean, exactly?

Chancetragedy wrote:
Haven't they already updated the electronic codices to use the GK wording for condemners? For some reason I thought they had been which makes them useless. If not hopefully they start culling out some of the seer councils.

Either way I personally am not worried about either of those lists as I feel they are beatable it's just extremely difficult. And I'm not winning adepticon anyways ;p

I just checked my sister codex on iPad completely up to date and still says hit not unsaved wound like inq codex... I have to be missing something somewhere...

The results proved exactly why I didn't go. Doesn't matter if everyone I know from my area (Michigan/Toledo) is going, or how well run an event is.

What kind of comp system makes the most broken army in the game even better? Therein lies the problem with comp. Terrible planning / lack of testing right there.

Glad everyone who went at least appeared to have a good time.

Well to be fair, Tony and Alan are confirmed phenomenal players. All the comp did was encourage them to take the best allowable list. I'm not sure it affected the outcome all that much. Good players win and finish highly at forty k events, consistently. The missions, legal units, etc rarely impact that. The only conclusion about the positives or negatives you can draw would come from the "average" mass of the field, and we have zero info about that feeling/feedback other than early reports of it being an awesome time :-)

DarthDiggler wrote:
The easiest way to end Seer council and anything like it in the future is to never have a best General category. Don't track it, don't acknowledge it, nothing. Let painting, sportsmanship, battle points and comp (Yes comp) sort out the best overall.

When people perceive best general as the highest award to get, Seer council in the extreme is born. When it is removed as a viable category, players adjust or fade away from lack of limelight.

Several Issues with your suggestion.

1.) This was a Comped event...not much change there. You could do different Comp to rid yourself of the seer council. But then something else will just become powerful.

2.) It assumes these beat face type armies are poorly painted...often that is not the case.

3.) So then it all comes down to subjective sports voting, which should never be determined on a players choice of list. Saying "I got stomped so I am dinging this guy in sports." is the antithesis to actual sportsmanship. If the guy was a nice guy with a hard list...he does not deserve to get dinged. All that does is encourage poor sportsmanship.

So you can come up with a comp system all you want, and then play a subjective event where and some people just won't show. Which is fine if that is what you want.

Lets be realistic here folks. The guys on the top tables will be on the top tables whether they are playing seer council or a ritz cracker. Top players are good because they grasp the game better than the 99% of rest of it.

Seer council pretty much was top tables while the rest of us barely saw it. I got in 6 awesome games and the venue was amazing. We kicked all their yuengling mid day saturday, and still kept on going. Thank you to all the people that put on the event and hope that they will continue to give us an ENJOYABLE event of food, friends, booze and plastic army men!

Fantastic Event!

The venue is a bit of a hike but well worth it. Bill and the Boston guys had a SICK house to themselves over a lake with a wrap around porch that fit 12 guys! Place was beautiful hills and lakes.

Didn't have to worry about food it was there and felt free since we paid for it in the ticket price.

The terrain was great! LOS blocking and very fair. There where a few crazy boards in the 40's area with HUGE buildings and one weird Dark Eldar esk building that was hard to play on. Luckily I avoided those boards.

I feel dirty for the seer council but I wanted to take the army I felt would give me the best shot at potential re-qualifying for the ETC Team America. Did I think it was going to go down as well as it did? No I did not but all you can do is set yourself up to win a game and then the dice need to fall your way. Thanks for rolling that 2 Brandon.

I have now made a vow to not touch Tau or Eldar in another Singles event for 2014 tournament year. Looking forward to the new nids codex and the rumored ORKS book.

I wanted to thank the all the people working the event for doing such a great job. Jay , Chris, and Shaun fantastic job as usual and I look forward to next years free drinks ALL DAY LONG!

Alan Bajramovic