Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
I am not American and I have no idea what it is supposed to represent apart from that it was the flag of the CSA in the American Civil War and that it is associated with the Southern US states.
But I do have to say that I like it's design way better than the current US flag. This is a really, really nice flag. The current US flag is pretty lame. It has way too much stripes and that makes it look ridiculous. The US should replace it with this nice flag, purely out of aesthetic considerations
Seaward wrote: The contention is that every Southerner fought in support of slavery.
It is literally true. Of course, what you want to say is that some people who fought under the battle flag hypothetically may not have approved of slavery. Which is fine but not much of a point regarding anything being discussed here.
Seaward wrote: The contention is that every Southerner fought in support of slavery.
It is literally true. Of course, what you want to say is that some people who fought under the battle flag hypothetically may not have approved of slavery. Which is fine but not much of a point regarding anything being discussed here.
Every Northern Soldier fought in support a stronger federal government, whether he meant to or not.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/10 20:48:18
Only if we're getting quite liberal with definitions.
Of course, what you want to say is that some people who fought under the battle flag hypothetically may not have approved of slavery. Which is fine but not much of a point regarding anything being discussed here.
Save, of course, for whether or not the Confederate flag can mean more than, "I support slavery."
Iron_Captain wrote: The current US flag is pretty lame. It has way too much stripes and that makes it look ridiculous. The US should replace it with this nice flag, purely out of aesthetic considerations
No one is arguing that it cannot mean more but the point remains that however much more it means it still includes "I support slavery." And if you decide to fight for the side that supports slavery, you are supporting slavery.
Manchu wrote: I don't disagree Polonius but I do know Civil War reenacting attracts more than its share of racism.
It does? I thought it just attracted slightly fat guys who like to play dress up? What about the DamnYankee re-enactors?
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Manchu wrote: No one is arguing that it cannot mean more but the point remains that however much more it means it still includes "I support slavery." And if you decide to fight for the side that supports slavery, you are supporting slavery.
Manchu wrote: No one is arguing that it cannot mean more but the point remains that however much more it means it still includes "I support slavery." And if you decide to fight for the side that supports slavery, you are supporting slavery.
Interesting. What are your thoughts on Rommel?
Rommel is a strange case. Yes, he fought for a government that attempted genocide and world domination, but he actively resisted and ignored orders and the laws that furthered those goals. Whilst he opposed assassinating Hitler, he DID support arresting him and retaking the government from the Nazi party. His reputation as a national hero protected him until Valkyrie and even then, the government needed to force him to commit suicide for fear of reprisal from citizens for anything more public.
It doesn't excuse his fighting for the Nazi government, of course, but he did what he could with the means he had.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/10 21:07:33
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
Manchu wrote: I don't know anyone who reenacts on the yankee side of things. (Again, I live in Richmond.)
Well someone wears the blue uniforms. I always wanted to go as a Federal Colonel at a Shiloh re-enactment or some other battle in Tennessee. Texas only had a few direct engagements and its hot as hell here to be playing in the sun like that.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
He was okay enough with Nazism to fight for the Nazi state.
Even most Germans accepted after the war that they knew, or should have known, enough about what the government was doing to say something. The reality is that most Germans, civilian, military, and government, were unopposed to the Final Solution. And certainly on board many of the steps toward it.
Platuan4th wrote: Rommel is a strange case. Yes, he fought for a government that attempted genocide and world domination, but he actively resisted and ignored orders and the laws that furthered those goals. Whilst he opposed assassinating Hitler, he DID support arresting him and retaking the government from the Nazi party.
Manchu wrote: No one is arguing that it cannot mean more but the point remains that however much more it means it still includes "I support slavery." And if you decide to fight for the side that supports slavery, you are supporting slavery.
Interesting. What are your thoughts on Rommel?
Rommel is a strange case. Yes, he fought for a government that attempted genocide and world domination, but he actively resisted and ignored orders and the laws that furthered those goals. Whilst he opposed assassinating Hitler, he DID support arresting him and retaking the government from the Nazi party.
He was an ardent supporter pre-war when it suited him.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Manchu wrote: No one is arguing that it cannot mean more but the point remains that however much more it means it still includes "I support slavery." And if you decide to fight for the side that supports slavery, you are supporting slavery.
Interesting. What are your thoughts on Rommel?
Rommel is a strange case. Yes, he fought for a government that attempted genocide and world domination, but he actively resisted and ignored orders and the laws that furthered those goals. Whilst he opposed assassinating Hitler, he DID support arresting him and retaking the government from the Nazi party.
But he worked to further many of their goals.
Dont' get me wrong, I don't think Rommel was a war criminal, evil, or even incorrect. He still knew the government he was fighting for was evil, and he kept at it. It means he helped the evil, despite his goals.
Platuan4th wrote: Rommel is a strange case. Yes, he fought for a government that attempted genocide and world domination, but he actively resisted and ignored orders and the laws that furthered those goals. Whilst he opposed assassinating Hitler, he DID support arresting him and retaking the government from the Nazi party.
But that's impossible, as Manchu has shown us.
See the edit.
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
Polonius wrote: Even most Germans accepted after the war that they knew, or should have known, enough about what the government was doing to say something. The reality is that most Germans, civilian, military, and government, were unopposed to the Final Solution. And certainly on board many of the steps toward it.
Strange that Rommel disobeyed so many orders that ran contrary to his principals and was actively involved in conspiracy to remove the Nazis from power even as he fought the Allies.
I'm uninterested in most Germans. I am interested in Rommel, though, at least as far as this discussion goes. He lends some weight to the notion that the black-and-white approach Manchu's taking to assigning motivation is too simplistic.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/10 21:09:30
Manchu wrote: No one is arguing that it cannot mean more but the point remains that however much more it means it still includes "I support slavery." And if you decide to fight for the side that supports slavery, you are supporting slavery.
Interesting. What are your thoughts on Rommel?
Rommel is a strange case. Yes, he fought for a government that attempted genocide and world domination, but he actively resisted and ignored orders and the laws that furthered those goals. Whilst he opposed assassinating Hitler, he DID support arresting him and retaking the government from the Nazi party.
He was an ardent supporter pre-war when it suited him.
So was Oskar Schindler. And he was, if not a war criminal, than at least a profiteer off of slave labor.
The shocking conclusion: people often make choices, not between 100% good and 100% bad, but between better and worse. Morality is only simple to the simple.
Polonius wrote: Even most Germans accepted after the war that they knew, or should have known, enough about what the government was doing to say something. The reality is that most Germans, civilian, military, and government, were unopposed to the Final Solution. And certainly on board many of the steps toward it.
Strange that Rommel disobeyed so many orders that ran contrary to his principals and was actively involved in conspiracy to remove the Nazis from power even as he fought the Allies.
I'm uninterested in most Germans. I am interested in Rommel, though, at least as far as this discussion goes. He lends some weight to the notion that the black-and-white approach Manchu's taking to assigning motivation is too simplistic.
Except he's not assigning motivation.
I don't care if Rommel wept bitter tears over the Final Solution, or the war Crimes of the SS. He directly helped make them happen. Motivation only matters in assigning guilt, not in assigning responsibility.
thats the thing... the flag no longer represents slavery... if it ever did, it represented the south in the civil war, which is far too simplistically boiled down to being 100% about slavery as there were far more reasons... but the north won, so slavery it is.
for me, the flag now represents the general lee... and jumping over ravines in cars while going "yeeeehaaawwww"
so the meanings changed/been co-opted again,
you are free to see "slavery "racism" ect there if you so choose, but do not make the assumption that your definition of what a symbol means, is everyones or a defacto "universal meaning to be held by all, for all time"
symbols change.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/01/10 21:13:37
for me, the flag now represents the general lee... and jumping over ravines in cars while going "yeeeehaaawwww"
so the meanings chaned/been co-opted again,
Except in America, it doesn't mean that and thus hasn't been co-opted again.
You only need to see pictures of when Mississippi attempted to change their state flag to something lacking the "Confederate flag" to see that.
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
No Mercy! No Pity! No Remorse! 
