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2014/01/27 16:20:59
Subject: When in area terrain and in receipt of cover from a ruin, if you go to ground is your cover save 2+c
I thought terrain and models give you cover "saves", not that there was a ruin type cover and area terrain type cover save.
Do explain further please?
Your being asinine helps how?
He's pointing out that your argument makes assumptions not supported by the rules.
That's hardly "asinine" (being neither stupid nor foolish, let alone "extremely").
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
2014/01/27 16:46:33
Subject: When in area terrain and in receipt of cover from a ruin, if you go to ground is your cover save 2+c
I thought terrain and models give you cover "saves", not that there was a ruin type cover and area terrain type cover save.
Do explain further please?
Your being asinine helps how?
He's pointing out that your argument makes assumptions not supported by the rules.
That's hardly "asinine" (being neither stupid nor foolish, let alone "extremely").
My intent was easily understood and I'm well aware of the definition. And if that is what you're called to defend that speaks to you as well.
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2014/01/27 19:11:10
Subject: When in area terrain and in receipt of cover from a ruin, if you go to ground is your cover save 2+c
nosferatu1001 wrote: Yes; and your intent also has no basis in rules. Check out the tenets - you're being asked to back up your assertions, and havent managed to
He did back it up. He quoted and everything. I understood what he said.
That's why he didn't break any rules.
2014/01/27 19:36:28
Subject: Re:When in area terrain and in receipt of cover from a ruin, if you go to ground is your cover save 2+c
POKEYtheBIG wrote: You have not shown where it applies to ruins. Ruins rule states you get a +1. If you are using the ruins cover save you use the rules for ruins; your area terrain never comes into play except for you that are trying to rule lawyer for an advantage.
Where does it say that in the ruins rules? I can't find it (due to my own incompetence) any chance you could give me a reference?
" Ruins are not a subcategory of area terrain in 6th ed, unlike 5th. Ruins are solid terrain offering 4+ cover. And IF they have a base, that base is also area terrain. Area terrain, in 6th, is a defined flat area of terrain (with raised elements) which grants non-vehicle models in the area a 5+ save. This 5+ save can be improved by 2 pips by Going to Ground in it, reaching a 3+ cover save. If a model is instead physically obscured by the raised elements of a Ruin, they can claim a 4+ cover save; but this is not coming from Area Terrain, and thus if you GtG with it, you still only get a 3+ cover save (all examples assuming no other stacking special rules like Stealth).
Arguments that the +2 can be applied to other cover saves than the 5+ from area ignore the context of that provision. "
The rule actually says that "Models in area terrain receive a 5+ cover save, regardless of whether or not they are 25% obscured. Models that Go To ground in area terrain receive +2 to their cover save rather than +1" (BRBpg. 91. Emphasis mine). Note, it doesn't say "receive +2 to their area terrain cover save" just "their cover save". Ruins also do not provide a "ruins cover save" just a "cover save".
The distinction some are looking for in this thread simply isn't present because of GW's incompetence at defining their terms.
Yep, so if the model is 90% obscured by the ruins but ARE still in the area terrain they get a 5+ save lowered to 3+ if they GTG
No, because models always take the best save that they can. However, since they have have gone to ground in area terrain they receive a +2 bonus to their save since, as I have argued, the wording for the area terrain save means that it applies to your cover save regardless of what piece of terrain you are getting your save from as long as you are still in area terrain.
This may not make sense from a game play standpoint until you remember that 40k uses TLOS to determine cover saves. You get that 4+ because, from the firers view, you are obscured by the ruins. Whether or not you chose to go to ground in the area terrain is irrelevant.
Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!
2014/01/27 19:38:46
Subject: When in area terrain and in receipt of cover from a ruin, if you go to ground is your cover save 2+c
nosferatu1001 wrote: Yes; and your intent also has no basis in rules. Check out the tenets - you're being asked to back up your assertions, and havent managed to
He did back it up. He quoted and everything. I understood what he said.
That's why he didn't break any rules.
Rules were quoted, which did not back up their assertion.
There us no "area terrain cover save" that the improved gtg is applied to. Just a cover save. My cover save is 4+, and I add 2 to it. I now have a 2+.
2014/01/27 20:01:30
Subject: Re:When in area terrain and in receipt of cover from a ruin, if you go to ground is your cover save 2+c
It is worked out by order of operations. You are shot at, hit, wounded, then cover saves are determined. Are you receiving a cover save from the ruins for 4+ or from area terrain 5+. Once it is determined which, you may then choose to GTG. If you are receiving a cover save from a piece of ruins the fact that you're in area terrain never plays into the formula as you get +1 for GTG behind a ruin. If you are determined to receive a cover save from area terrain then you get your +2. One does not affect the other. It is not written "you get a +1 to your cover save for GTG behind ruins UNLESS you are also in area which grants you a +2." It is one or the other. Your assumptions are far too liberal in thinking otherwise.
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2014/01/27 20:04:08
Subject: Re:When in area terrain and in receipt of cover from a ruin, if you go to ground is your cover save 2+c
"The rule actually says that "Models in area terrain receive a 5+ cover save, regardless of whether or not they are 25% obscured. Models that Go To ground in area terrain receive +2 to their cover save rather than +1"
Permission has been given to use +2 GTG in area terrain only. Please post page\paragraph the states RUINS also get the +2 GTG save.
Ruins are not area terrain, there ruins. Area terrain is not ruins its area terrain.
Again anytime you have to make a leap to apply a rule that doesn't even exit ( ruins getting 2+ save ) you really should have actual reference.
Is it Area terrain or Ruins? that's really the crux to this. The people want the advantage of getting 2+ from just standing on the AREA terrain that is close to the ruin.
What page says you get +2 GtG for standing next to a ruin?
Remember its a permissive game.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
POKEYtheBIG wrote: It is worked out by order of operations. You are shot at, hit, wounded, then cover saves are determined. Are you receiving a cover save from the ruins for 4+ or from area terrain 5+. Once it is determined which, you may then choose to GTG. If you are receiving a cover save from a piece of ruins the fact that you're in area terrain never plays into the formula as you get +1 for GTG behind a ruin. If you are determined to receive a cover save from area terrain then you get your +2. One does not affect the other. It is not written "you get a +1 to your cover save for GTG behind ruins UNLESS you are also in area which grants you a +2." It is one or the other. Your assumptions are far too liberal in thinking otherwise.
He ninja'ed me
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/27 20:04:55
2014/01/27 20:08:19
Subject: Re:When in area terrain and in receipt of cover from a ruin, if you go to ground is your cover save 2+c
osirisx69 wrote: Permission has been given to use +2 GTG in area terrain only. Please post page\paragraph the states RUINS also get the +2 GTG save.
Slight correction - models that GTG in area terrain get +2 to their cover save instead of +1. The cover save for area terrain is not modified - the model gets a different modifier to their cover save.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/27 20:08:28
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
2014/01/27 20:14:36
Subject: Re:When in area terrain and in receipt of cover from a ruin, if you go to ground is your cover save 2+c
osirisx69 wrote: "The rule actually says that "Models in area terrain receive a 5+ cover save, regardless of whether or not they are 25% obscured. Models that Go To ground in area terrain receive +2 to their cover save rather than +1"
Permission has been given to use +2 GTG in area terrain only. Please post page\paragraph the states RUINS also get the +2 GTG save.
Ruins are not area terrain, there ruins. Area terrain is not ruins its area terrain.
Again anytime you have to make a leap to apply a rule that doesn't even exit ( ruins getting 2+ save ) you really should have actual reference.
Is it Area terrain or Ruins? that's really the crux to this. The people want the advantage of getting 2+ from just standing on the AREA terrain that is close to the ruin.
What page says you get +2 GtG for standing next to a ruin?
Remember its a permissive game.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
POKEYtheBIG wrote: It is worked out by order of operations. You are shot at, hit, wounded, then cover saves are determined. Are you receiving a cover save from the ruins for 4+ or from area terrain 5+. Once it is determined which, you may then choose to GTG. If you are receiving a cover save from a piece of ruins the fact that you're in area terrain never plays into the formula as you get +1 for GTG behind a ruin. If you are determined to receive a cover save from area terrain then you get your +2. One does not affect the other. It is not written "you get a +1 to your cover save for GTG behind ruins UNLESS you are also in area which grants you a +2." It is one or the other. Your assumptions are far too liberal in thinking otherwise.
He ninja'ed me
Except the rule doesnt say any of that. Again, you are assuming that the terrain rules are somehow exclusive towards each other. The thing with the area terrain rule is that it presents two conditions that need to be met to gain its benefit. 1)Your model must be in it. (This is the important part. It doesnt say "If your model is taking an area terrain save") and 2) It must go to ground.
Whether or not it is actually taking that save is irrelevant as the rule doesnt require it. The devil is in the details with this one.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/27 20:16:38
Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!
2014/01/27 20:23:14
Subject: Re:When in area terrain and in receipt of cover from a ruin, if you go to ground is your cover save 2+c
POKEYtheBIG wrote: It is worked out by order of operations. You are shot at, hit, wounded, then cover saves are determined. Are you receiving a cover save from the ruins for 4+ or from area terrain 5+. Once it is determined which, you may then choose to GTG. If you are receiving a cover save from a piece of ruins the fact that you're in area terrain never plays into the formula as you get +1 for GTG behind a ruin. If you are determined to receive a cover save from area terrain then you get your +2. One does not affect the other. It is not written "you get a +1 to your cover save for GTG behind ruins UNLESS you are also in area which grants you a +2." It is one or the other. Your assumptions are far too liberal in thinking otherwise.
I think this covers it nicely. I get shot, my opponent hits, we get down to models eye view, he asks what terrain I am in, we see I am behind a ruin. I decided to GtG so my save is modified +1.
If I was in area terrain and I went to ground it would be +2 to modify my save.
2014/01/27 20:30:42
Subject: When in area terrain and in receipt of cover from a ruin, if you go to ground is your cover save 2+c
Thats not how the rule works, though. Again, you are assuming there is a provision that stops the two terrain bonuses from stacking.
To use the twice quotes example, here is how it would go. Your unit gets shot while it was behind a ruin on a base. You get a 4+ cover save from the ruin but you decide to go to ground. This fullfills the the other condition of getting a +2 to your save since your models are still in area terrain. You dont lose the benefits of area terrain by not taking its save since its benefits are not dependent on that condition.
Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!
2014/01/27 20:51:48
Subject: When in area terrain and in receipt of cover from a ruin, if you go to ground is your cover save 2+c
rigeld2 wrote: But you're not just obscured by a ruin. You're also in area terrain.
This is the best description.
Ruins are not a subcategory of area terrain in 6th ed, unlike 5th. Ruins are solid terrain offering 4+ cover. And IF they have a base, that base is also area terrain. Area terrain, in 6th, is a defined flat area of terrain (with raised elements) which grants non-vehicle models in the area a 5+ save. This 5+ save can be improved by 2 pips by Going to Ground in it, reaching a 3+ cover save. If a model is instead physically obscured by the raised elements of a Ruin, they can claim a 4+ cover save; but this is not coming from Area Terrain, and thus if you GtG with it, you still only get a 3+ cover save (all examples assuming no other stacking special rules like Stealth).
Arguments that the +2 can be applied to other cover saves than the 5+ from area ignore the context of that provision.
Paraphrasing.
2014/01/27 20:54:34
Subject: When in area terrain and in receipt of cover from a ruin, if you go to ground is your cover save 2+c
Grey Templar wrote: The Riptide can't be a giant death robot, its completely lacking a sword or massive chainsaw. All giant death robots have swords or massive chainsaws.
2014/01/27 21:42:28
Subject: When in area terrain and in receipt of cover from a ruin, if you go to ground is your cover save 2+c
osirisx69 wrote: This 5+ save can be improved by 2 pips by Going to Ground in it
This rule does not exist. Please stop pretending it does.
WOW, ok so now regild says gtg does NOT improve your save in area terrain by +2
He wants you to quote where does the "5+ save is improved by 2" rule which you are making up .
"The rule actually says that "Models in area terrain receive a 5+ cover save, regardless of whether or not they are 25% obscured. Models that Go To ground in area terrain receive +2 to their cover save rather than +1"
its right there... how is that made up?
2014/01/27 21:45:16
Subject: When in area terrain and in receipt of cover from a ruin, if you go to ground is your cover save 2+c
Grey Templar wrote: The Riptide can't be a giant death robot, its completely lacking a sword or massive chainsaw. All giant death robots have swords or massive chainsaws.
2014/01/27 21:55:42
Subject: When in area terrain and in receipt of cover from a ruin, if you go to ground is your cover save 2+c
osirisx69 wrote: This 5+ save can be improved by 2 pips by Going to Ground in it
This rule does not exist. Please stop pretending it does.
WOW, ok so now regild says gtg does NOT improve your save in area terrain by +2
rigeld2. It's not hard. You used all the right letters. Please use them in the right order.
And no, I didn't say that. At all. See what I quoted? Cite that rule. The rule does not say that the 5+ save is improved by 2. Ever. If it did this conversation wouldn't exist.
It says that the GTG modifier is changed to a 2 instead of a 1. Note how it doesn't address what save that GTG modifier modifies? See how that's different from what you said?
Stop making up rules.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
2014/01/27 22:28:05
Subject: When in area terrain and in receipt of cover from a ruin, if you go to ground is your cover save 2+c
The confusing is people are thinking ruins are area terrain and they are not.
Pg 98 BRB tells you ruins mounted on a base to treat the base as area terrain.
All area terrain is 5+. So GtG in area terrain gives you +2 for a 3+ cover save.
25% obscured by ruins is a 4+, and GtG gives you +1 for a 3+ cover save.
So it's moot the best you get without special abilities, wargear, nightfight, or a aegis defense line is a 3+.
Also if you GtG in area terrain it means exactly that area terrain. If you GtG while concealed by ruins you are GtG in ruins. Just because you are also in area terrain does not mean add +2 to the 4+ ruin cover save,
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/27 23:25:47
2014/01/27 23:30:18
Subject: When in area terrain and in receipt of cover from a ruin, if you go to ground is your cover save 2+c
Wagguy80 wrote: The confusing is people are thinking ruins are area terrain and they are not.
Pg 98 BRB tells you ruins mounted on a base to treat the base as area terrain.
All area terrain is 5+. So GtG in area terrain gives you +2 for a 3+ cover save.
25% obscured by ruins is a 4+, and GtG gives you +1 for a 3+ cover save.
So it's moot the best you get without special abilities, wargear, nightfight, or a aegis defense line is a 3+.
Also if you GtG in area terrain it means exactly that area terrain. If you GtG while concealed by ruins you are GtG in ruins. Just because you are also in area terrain does not mean add +2 to the 4+ ruin cover save,
It is possible to have a 4+ save from a ruin (say, in midfield between the shooter and the victim), and still be in area terrain (i.e. deployed into woods). That way, if the unit chooses to Go to Ground, the unit has Gone to Ground in Area Terrain, granting it +2 to its cover save, and a 4+ is the best save available (which the rules demand that we take) so it is modified to a 2+.
2014/01/27 23:33:56
Subject: When in area terrain and in receipt of cover from a ruin, if you go to ground is your cover save 2+c
Grey Templar wrote: The Riptide can't be a giant death robot, its completely lacking a sword or massive chainsaw. All giant death robots have swords or massive chainsaws.
2014/01/27 23:49:58
Subject: Re:When in area terrain and in receipt of cover from a ruin, if you go to ground is your cover save 2+c
I'm trying to find this requirement for using your cover save granted by that piece of area terrain to gain the go to ground bonus, the only requirements I see are being in area terrain and going to ground.
Ailaros wrote: You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.
"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!"
2014/01/28 00:17:07
Subject: When in area terrain and in receipt of cover from a ruin, if you go to ground is your cover save 2+c
Because GtG is based on the save taken. Which is why the +2 is only listed under Area terrain and not under GtG under Cover Saves.
So you can RAW and argue it and leave it up to the judges, or RAI and take the 3+ either way. The whole book is based on a level of cooperation between the two players. So you can always put the question to them before the game starts. He'll either agree or dissagree. As long as he's not taking 3+ cover saves while GtG in area terrain and behind ruins while your taking 2+ cover saves there shouldn't be any problem.
2014/01/28 00:26:45
Subject: When in area terrain and in receipt of cover from a ruin, if you go to ground is your cover save 2+c
Wagguy80 wrote: Because GtG is based on the save taken. Which is why the +2 is only listed under Area terrain and not under GtG under Cover Saves.
So you can RAW and argue it and leave it up to the judges, or RAI and take the 3+ either way. The whole book is based on a level of cooperation between the two players. So you can always put the question to them before the game starts. He'll either agree or dissagree. As long as he's not taking 3+ cover saves while GtG in area terrain and behind ruins while your taking 2+ cover saves there shouldn't be any problem.
No, that's not how it works. The rule says that when you are in area terrain and you go to ground you get a +2 to your cover save. Note that it doesn't say "You add a +2 to your area terrain save", "This benefit may only be conferred when the area terrain save is the highest cover save" nor "You may not apply this to any other cover save". It just says add +2 to your cover save as long as you meet the two conditions of being in the area terrain and going to ground in it.
Btw, he entire point of this forum is trying to determine the RAW.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/28 00:27:39
Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!
2014/01/28 00:27:17
Subject: When in area terrain and in receipt of cover from a ruin, if you go to ground is your cover save 2+c
Wagguy80 wrote: Because GtG is based on the save taken. Which is why the +2 is only listed under Area terrain and not under GtG under Cover Saves.
So you can RAW and argue it and leave it up to the judges, or RAI and take the 3+ either way. The whole book is based on a level of cooperation between the two players. So you can always put the question to them before the game starts. He'll either agree or dissagree. As long as he's not taking 3+ cover saves while GtG in area terrain and behind ruins while your taking 2+ cover saves there shouldn't be any problem.
How do you know RAI is a 3+? Maybe they wanted to reflect the durability of the cover (4+ ruins) being stacked upon the inability of the unit to see the target well (going to ground in area terrain)?
2014/01/28 00:56:59
Subject: When in area terrain and in receipt of cover from a ruin, if you go to ground is your cover save 2+c
Wagguy80 wrote: Because GtG is based on the save taken. Which is why the +2 is only listed under Area terrain and not under GtG under Cover Saves.
A) No it isn't, it's based on the terrain you're going to ground in.
B) Have you considered that it is listed under area terrain because it's an area terrain rule?
Ailaros wrote: You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.
"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!"
2014/01/28 00:57:57
Subject: When in area terrain and in receipt of cover from a ruin, if you go to ground is your cover save 2+c
If that were the case under cover saves they would have simply stated that being GtG in area terrain grants an additional +1 modifier to your cover save.
Instead it's listed only under Area terrain when discussion cover saves provided by area terrain.
Edit: And under GtG for Aegis defense lines
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/28 00:59:01
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