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 PrinceRaven wrote:
The "Blast Weapons and Re-rolls" rules do not state that.

Doesn't state that you're firing a Blast weapon? Which doesn't involve a Scatter? Are you sure?

So it lets you re-roll leadership tests? Because it doesn't state those 2D6 must be part of a Scatter?

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The "Blast Weapons and Re-rolls" rules do not state that.

"If the model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6"

It doesn't state that you are restricted to only using the reroll when rolling a Scatter, only when firing a blast weapon.
If you're making a leadership test, are you firing a blast weapon?
If you a firing a Multiple Barrage, are you firing a blast weapon?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The "Blast Weapons and Re-rolls" rules do not state that.

"If the model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6"

I don't see anything along the lines of, "oh btw, this only works when you're rolling a Scatter".

 PrinceRaven wrote:
It doesn't state that you are restricted to only using the reroll when rolling a Scatter, only when firing a blast weapon.
If you're making a leadership test, are you firing a blast weapon?
If you a firing a Multiple Barrage, are you firing a blast weapon?

Do Blast weapons Scatter?
If yes, do you think the scatter dice and 2D6 the rule refers to is in reference to that Scatter?

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The "Blast Weapons and Re-rolls" rules do not state that.

"If the model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6"

I don't see anything along the lines of, "oh btw, this only works when you're rolling a Scatter".

Ah, for that you need to look further up, where it says: "Roll for the blast marker to scatter and subtract the firer's Ballistic Skill from the distance (if any) that it scatters"

But i was assuming you knew the rules for "Blast weapons" as per p33?

 BlackTalos wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The "Blast Weapons and Re-rolls" rules do not state that.

"If the model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6"

I don't see anything along the lines of, "oh btw, this only works when you're rolling a Scatter".

Ah, for that you need to look further up, where it says: "Roll for the blast marker to scatter and subtract the firer's Ballistic Skill from the distance (if any) that it scatters"

But i was assuming you knew the rules for "Blast weapons" as per p33?

Barrage weapons also follow all the normal blast weapon rules, with exceptions as specified. There is no exception stating that barrage weapons with rerolls are treated differently than blast weapons with rerolls. We simply have a different mechanic for determining the location of subsequent shots in the volley. The barrage rules modify the blast rules so that subquent shots scatter one scatter dice off the initial template instead of having a full scatter again.

PanzerLeader wrote:
subquent shots scatter one scatter dice off the initial template instead of having a full scatter again.

This is the part that i would have agreed with 20 mins ago, but that Grendel pointed out is actually very different.

They do not scatter one Scatter dice. They use the scatter dice only. If the same rule said "Roll a D12 for every other shot, and measure, clockwise, the position of the Template" It asks you to roll that one Dice.
It just happens to be a Scatter Dice which indeed makes the whole thing confusing.

PanzerLeader wrote:
Barrage weapons also follow all the normal blast weapon rules, with exceptions as specified. There is no exception stating that barrage weapons with rerolls are treated differently than blast weapons with rerolls. We simply have a different mechanic for determining the location of subsequent shots in the volley. The barrage rules modify the blast rules so that subquent shots scatter one scatter dice off the initial template instead of having a full scatter again.

The subsequent shots do not Scatter. They use a different mechanic as you say.
So how can you use a rule for re-rolling a Scatter, when you didn't Scatter?

 grendel083 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
It doesn't state that you are restricted to only using the reroll when rolling a Scatter, only when firing a blast weapon.
If you're making a leadership test, are you firing a blast weapon?
If you a firing a Multiple Barrage, are you firing a blast weapon?

Do Blast weapons Scatter?

Yes.

If yes, do you think the scatter dice and 2D6 the rule refers to is in reference to that Scatter?

Yes I do, as that is the normal method you use when firing a blast weapon.
Your point being?

I would point out, though Grendel, that RaI and HIWPI, the intention was for it to be a Scatter, and only because we are discussing RaW you would not re-roll that dice.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
It doesn't state that you are restricted to only using the reroll when rolling a Scatter, only when firing a blast weapon.
If you're making a leadership test, are you firing a blast weapon?
If you a firing a Multiple Barrage, are you firing a blast weapon?

Do Blast weapons Scatter?

Yes.

If yes, do you think the scatter dice and 2D6 the rule refers to is in reference to that Scatter?

Yes I do, as that is the normal method you use when firing a blast weapon.
Your point being?

So you now agree that it's a rule allowing a re-roll for the dice involved in a Scatter. Great.

The roll for positioning subsequent shots is not a Scatter. So this rule cannot allow it to be re-rolled.
You're trying to use a rule to re-roll dice it doesn't allow a re-roll for.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlackTalos wrote:
I would point out, though Grendel, that RaI and HIWPI, the intention was for it to be a Scatter, and only because we are discussing RaW you would not re-roll that dice.

Thats a different argument altogether, and one that's impossible to prove.
Personally I thing the RAI is that they shouldn't get re-rolls. Re-rolls only on the initial shot.

 grendel083 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
It doesn't state that you are restricted to only using the reroll when rolling a Scatter, only when firing a blast weapon.
If you're making a leadership test, are you firing a blast weapon?
If you a firing a Multiple Barrage, are you firing a blast weapon?

Do Blast weapons Scatter?

Yes.

If yes, do you think the scatter dice and 2D6 the rule refers to is in reference to that Scatter?

Yes I do, as that is the normal method you use when firing a blast weapon.
Your point being?

So you now agree that it's a rule allowing a re-roll for the dice involved in a Scatter. Great.

No, I agreed that it is referencing the dice used in a Scatter. The rule allows to reroll the scatter dice and the 2d6 when firing a blast weapon, which is normally a Scatter but not always.

The roll for positioning subsequent shots is not a Scatter. So this rule cannot allow it to be re-rolled.
You're trying to use a rule to re-roll dice it doesn't allow a re-roll for.

I am firing a multiple barrage, am I firing a blast weapon?
Am I rolling a scatter dice?
Does the rule in question grant permission to reroll a scatter die?

 PrinceRaven wrote:
No, I agreed that it is referencing the dice used in a Scatter. The rule allows to reroll the scatter dice and the 2d6 when firing a blast weapon, which is normally a Scatter but not always.

It's a re-roll correct? So if you didn't roll it in the first place, how can you re-roll it?

You didn't roll a Scatter. You're trying to re-roll a dice that wasn't involved in the initial roll.
The rule gives you permission to re-roll the very specific dice that was involved in the Scatter. Not any other dice you fancy.

I am firing a multiple barrage, am I firing a blast weapon?
Am I rolling a scatter dice?
Does the rule in question grant permission to reroll a scatter die?

You're rolling to place subsequent shots.
The rule grants the ability to re-roll the dice involved in the Scatter. These dice were not involved in the Scatter. So no, you can't re-roll them.

Does the rule say you can re-roll any dice involved in the shot?
Is it every specific as to which dice you can re-roll?

 grendel083 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
I would point out, though Grendel, that RaI and HIWPI, the intention was for it to be a Scatter, and only because we are discussing RaW you would not re-roll that dice.

Thats a different argument altogether, and one that's impossible to prove.
Personally I thing the RAI is that they shouldn't get re-rolls. Re-rolls only on the initial shot.

Going by RaI or HIWPI, Re-rolls generally, if not always, apply per shot.

TL Assault cannon re-rolls each 4 shots individually,
just as a TL Heavy 4 Barrage would "re-roll" every shot (some are just rolling the scatter dice) - ignoring the current RaW position that the following shots aren't actually Scatter as defined.

 grendel083 wrote:
The rule grants the ability to re-roll the dice involved in the Scatter.

This is a deliberate lie, the rule does not give me permission to re-roll "the dice involved in a Scatter" it gives me permission to re-roll "both the scatter dice and the 2D6" when firing a blast weapon.
You have failed to answer my questions, so I shall restate them.
I am firing a multiple barrage:
Am I firing a blast weapon?
Am I rolling a scatter die?
Does the rule in question grant permission to reroll a scatter die?

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
The rule grants the ability to re-roll the dice involved in the Scatter.

This is a deliberate lie, the rule does not give me permission to re-roll "the dice involved in a Scatter" it gives me permission to re-roll "both the scatter dice and the 2D6" when firing a blast weapon.
You have failed to answer my questions, so I shall restate them.
I am firing a multiple barrage:
Am I firing a blast weapon?

Yes

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Am I rolling a scatter die?

Yes

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Does the rule in question grant permission to reroll a scatter die?

No

 BlackTalos wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Does the rule in question grant permission to reroll a scatter die?

No

Ah, good, some answers.

Now, why not? Why does permission to re-roll "both the scatter dice and the 2D6" not grant permission to reroll the scatter die?
Obviously, I would like the argument to be, you know, supported with actual rules. I know that can be hard when the rules directly contradict your argument, but please do try.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
The rule grants the ability to re-roll the dice involved in the Scatter.

This is a deliberate lie, the rule does not give me permission to re-roll "the dice involved in a Scatter" it gives me permission to re-roll "both the scatter dice and the 2D6" when firing a blast weapon.

Excuse me? Deliberate lie?
Which scatter dice and 2D6 does it allow you to re-roll then?
Any at all according to you.

From the Twin-linked rule:
"If the scatter dice does not roll a Hit, you may choose to re-roll the dice"

As you correctly stated earlier, the scatter dice mentioned is the one involved in the Scatter. THAT is the dice you can re-roll.
You're using this rule to re-roll a dice that was never used in a Scatter.
Using a rule for one thing, and applying it to another.

You have failed to answer my questions, so I shall restate them.
I am firing a multiple barrage:
Am I firing a blast weapon?
Am I rolling a scatter die?
Does the rule in question grant permission to reroll a scatter die?

Yes,
Yes,
Yes,
It allows the re-roll of the scatter dice that was involved in a Scatter. The scatter dice in question was not used in a Scatter. The rules for a Scatter can be found in the "Basic Principles" section of the rulebook (page 8 I think, 22 on the iBook version of the rules).

Does the roll to place Subsequent shots in a Multiple Barrage follow the rules for a Scatter as described on page 8?
Does the Multiple Barrage rule say that this is a Scatter, or does it say you roll a Scatter dice?
Does a rule that allows you to re-roll a Scatter, let your re-roll something that isn't a Scatter (without any rule specifying it does?)

 BlackTalos wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The "Blast Weapons and Re-rolls" rules do not state that.

"If the model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6"

Scatter
...
-Some rules may specify a distance to be determined other than the 2d6, in which case, just replace the 2d6 in this procedure with the method listed in the rule

So, do the multiple barrage rules specify a different method? Why yes, they do. So the 2d6 is replaced by the method listed in the rules.

 grendel083 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
The rule grants the ability to re-roll the dice involved in the Scatter.

This is a deliberate lie, the rule does not give me permission to re-roll "the dice involved in a Scatter" it gives me permission to re-roll "both the scatter dice and the 2D6" when firing a blast weapon.

Excuse me? Deliberate lie?
Which scatter dice and 2D6 does it allow you to re-roll then?
Any at all according to you.

The ones involved in firing a blast weapon, so usually a Scatter but not always.

You have failed to answer my questions, so I shall restate them.
I am firing a multiple barrage:
Am I firing a blast weapon?
Am I rolling a scatter die?
Does the rule in question grant permission to reroll a scatter die?

Yes,
Yes,
Yes,
It allows the re-roll of the scatter dice that was involved in a Scatter. The scatter dice in question was not used in a Scatter. The rules for a Scatter can be found in the "Basic Principles" section of the rulebook (page 8 I think, 22 on the iBook version of the rules).

Please show me the rules that state they have to be part of a Scatter.

Does the roll to place Subsequent shots in a Multiple Barrage follow the rules for a Scatter as described on page 8? No
Does the Multiple Barrage rule say that this is a Scatter, or does it say you roll a Scatter dice? Scatter dice
Does a rule that allows you to re-roll a Scatter, let your re-roll something that isn't a Scatter (without any rule specifying it does?) No it doesn't, so if you manage to prove that the rule only applies Scatters I will concede that you are correct.

 don_mondo wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The "Blast Weapons and Re-rolls" rules do not state that.

"If the model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6"

Scatter
...
-Some rules may specify a distance to be determined other than the 2d6, in which case, just replace the 2d6 in this procedure with the method listed in the rule

So, do the multiple barrage rules specify a different method? Why yes, they do. So the 2d6 is replaced by the method listed in the rules.

It's not a Scatter. It's not described as a Scatter. It doesn't say it's a Scatter.

So the rules for Scatter don't matter at all. Why do you keep quoting this?

Because it is a scatter and they do matter...........

 PrinceRaven wrote:

Does the roll to place Subsequent shots in a Multiple Barrage follow the rules for a Scatter as described on page 8? No
Does the Multiple Barrage rule say that this is a Scatter, or does it say you roll a Scatter dice? Scatter dice
Does a rule that allows you to re-roll a Scatter, let your re-roll something that isn't a Scatter (without any rule specifying it does?) No it doesn't, so if you manage to prove that the rule only applies Scatters I will concede that you are correct.

From the Twin Linked rule:
"If the scatter dice does not roll a Hit, you may choose to re-roll the dice"

Which scatter dice is it referring to? Is it the one involved in the Scatter of the blast marker?
If so then the rule allows you to re-roll that dice, correct?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 don_mondo wrote:
Because it is a scatter and they do matter...........

Prove it. The rule doesn't say it's a Scatter.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Does the rule in question grant permission to reroll a scatter die?

No

Ah, good, some answers.

Now, why not? Why does permission to re-roll "both the scatter dice and the 2D6" not grant permission to reroll the scatter die?
Obviously, I would like the argument to be, you know, supported with actual rules. I know that can be hard when the rules directly contradict your argument, but please do try.

because "both the scatter dice and the 2D6" is a permission to re-roll a Scatter described on p6. It is not a permission to re-roll "a Scatter dice". Keyword: "Both"

So if I have permission to both shoot and charge an enemy unit I can't choose to only to do 1?

 BlackTalos wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Does the rule in question grant permission to reroll a scatter die?

No

Ah, good, some answers.

Now, why not? Why does permission to re-roll "both the scatter dice and the 2D6" not grant permission to reroll the scatter die?
Obviously, I would like the argument to be, you know, supported with actual rules. I know that can be hard when the rules directly contradict your argument, but please do try.

because "both the scatter dice and the 2D6" is a permission to re-roll a Scatter described on p6. It is not a permission to re-roll "a Scatter dice". Keyword: "Both"

But as Grendel just posted, we also have a rule that grants specific permission to reroll the scatter dice if you do not roll a hit.

Course, IMO, the subsequent blasts are a "scatter" roll as you are rolling the scatter dice to determine the final location of a blast marker, and using the method in the rules for multiple barrage to determine the blasts final location. That's where You and Grendel are disagreeing I believe (ie whether or not it qualifies as a 'scatter'), and I don't see either of us changing the others mind. Later.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
So if I have permission to both shoot and charge an enemy unit I can't choose to only to do 1?

A more accurate question is "If I have permission to re-roll charge distances, can I re-roll my run move".

You're trying to use an ability that lets you re-roll the dice used in a Scatter, to try and re-roll a die that wasn't part of a Scatter.

 grendel083 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
So if I have permission to both shoot and charge an enemy unit I can't choose to only to do 1?

A more accurate question is "If I have permission to re-roll charge distances, can I re-roll my run move".

You're trying to use an ability that lets you re-roll the dice used in a Scatter, to try and re-roll a die that wasn't part of a Scatter.

Once again, prove it.

 don_mondo wrote:
Course, IMO, the subsequent blasts are a "scatter" roll as you are rolling the scatter dice to determine the final location of a blast marker

But that's not a Scatter. It follows none of the rules for a Scatter, just a general principle of rolling a Scatter dice.

That's it, just a very slight similarity.

For example, if you roll a HIT! on a Scatter, the marker doesn't move. Multiple Barrage doesn't follow that. Or any other rule.

Rule in question doesn't say it's a Scatter, just says you use a scatter dice.

Scatter and scatter dice are two different things. On is an object, the other an action.

Like I say, that's where we disagree and we're not going to change each others minds....................