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 Envihon wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
The way I see it, 6th edition parking lot became way less effective because we couldn't score with MSUs sitting in vehicles anymore. We just swung way back over the pendulum where now our DTs and their contents can score... (And count as Objective Secured, to boot...)

This has almost made me want to try and break out the Rhinos again to see if I could have anymore luck with them. Either way, I can't CC whether they pop out of DT or DS in, I only will be able to shoot that turn and assault the next. The only good thing is being able to leave the Rhino behind on an objective. It definitely makes Razorbacks more valuable even if you just keep the Heavy Bolter with psybolts. Maybe I should try putting the armor back into my army to try it out, it would certainly allow my GKSS to be on the board turn one to help the shunting team.

You shouldn't worry about getting to assault quickly so much; one thing that didn't change from 6th to 7th is that shooting is still where it is at when it comes to killing things.

 Envihon wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
The way I see it, 6th edition parking lot became way less effective because we couldn't score with MSUs sitting in vehicles anymore. We just swung way back over the pendulum where now our DTs and their contents can score... (And count as Objective Secured, to boot...)

This has almost made me want to try and break out the Rhinos again to see if I could have anymore luck with them. Either way, I can't CC whether they pop out of DT or DS in, I only will be able to shoot that turn and assault the next. The only good thing is being able to leave the Rhino behind on an objective. It definitely makes Razorbacks more valuable even if you just keep the Heavy Bolter with psybolts. Maybe I should try putting the armor back into my army to try it out, it would certainly allow my GKSS to be on the board turn one to help the shunting team.

Anyone use Rhinos or Razorbacks in 7th with their GKs and meet success? And not henchman...real GK.

I've only played a couple games of 7th but I've had great success with 5 purifiers in Rhinos. I ran an 1850 pt game against a Tau player using 3 of these units and they performed brilliantly. On turn 1 I drove forward 12" towards his Pathfinders and used Cleansing Flame to wipe out 2 units of them. Then 2 Psycannons made 8 snap shots out the top hatch to put 1 wound each on a Riptide. Meanwhile 2 DKs shunted forward and flamed out 2 units of firewarriors sitting on objectives. He had some really bad rolling but in the end I was very impressed with Purifers in Rhinos.

Cleansing Flame was a huge boon to the list. Crowe came in later inside a Stormraven but didn't do much... so having Objective Secured Purifers still has the 150 pt tax drawback. I'm considering taking an Aegis Defense line with an Icarus to give Crowe something to do and to provide a first turn defense for the rhinos.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
I've honestly been toying around with the idea of Iron Hands allies with DP melta suicide squads or an Ironclad dread with Deathwind launchers. IWND DL Droppods can be a pain in the arse to deal with. Or a single Knight Errant to accompany two walking DKs with incinerators. All three moving 12", beasts at close combat. DKs can run interference for anything that tries to flank the Knight or bog it down. Top it off with an LRC packed with Crusaders, Inquisitor fishing for invis, DCAs, and a priest. If your meta allows FW, take a Sicaran tank for anti-Wave Serpent and to plug the anti-air hole. Fill the rest of points with psybacks and more MSU psyker+bolter acolyte henchmen squads.

My take on an "armour saturation" list.

Walking DKs move 6", not 12". The PT changes them to Jump MCs, gaining a 12" move. Just say'n.

SJ

Sorry, wasn't clear. To clarify, I run PTs on all my DKs, and walk them up the board. I meant to say walk them up the board and save the shunt for critical repositioning, i.e. last-turn objective grabs or shunting somewhere to flame a scoring unit off the board.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Envihon wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
The way I see it, 6th edition parking lot became way less effective because we couldn't score with MSUs sitting in vehicles anymore. We just swung way back over the pendulum where now our DTs and their contents can score... (And count as Objective Secured, to boot...)

This has almost made me want to try and break out the Rhinos again to see if I could have anymore luck with them. Either way, I can't CC whether they pop out of DT or DS in, I only will be able to shoot that turn and assault the next. The only good thing is being able to leave the Rhino behind on an objective. It definitely makes Razorbacks more valuable even if you just keep the Heavy Bolter with psybolts. Maybe I should try putting the armor back into my army to try it out, it would certainly allow my GKSS to be on the board turn one to help the shunting team.

Anyone use Rhinos or Razorbacks in 7th with their GKs and meet success? And not henchman...real GK.

I personally feel that the value of GKSS has dropped if you don't plan to Deepstrike them and instead stick them in transports. They lost Quake, and won't assault till much later in the game, which devalues one of their core advantages over a tac marine.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
I've honestly been toying around with the idea of Iron Hands allies with DP melta suicide squads or an Ironclad dread with Deathwind launchers. IWND DL Droppods can be a pain in the arse to deal with. Or a single Knight Errant to accompany two walking DKs with incinerators. All three moving 12", beasts at close combat. DKs can run interference for anything that tries to flank the Knight or bog it down. Top it off with an LRC packed with Crusaders, Inquisitor fishing for invis, DCAs, and a priest. If your meta allows FW, take a Sicaran tank for anti-Wave Serpent and to plug the anti-air hole. Fill the rest of points with psybacks and more MSU psyker+bolter acolyte henchmen squads.

My take on an "armour saturation" list.

Walking DKs move 6", not 12". The PT changes them to Jump MCs, gaining a 12" move. Just say'n.

SJ

I think that the Personal Teleporter has become so universal to the build of a DK that most people forget its an add-on

 Envihon wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
I've honestly been toying around with the idea of Iron Hands allies with DP melta suicide squads or an Ironclad dread with Deathwind launchers. IWND DL Droppods can be a pain in the arse to deal with. Or a single Knight Errant to accompany two walking DKs with incinerators. All three moving 12", beasts at close combat. DKs can run interference for anything that tries to flank the Knight or bog it down. Top it off with an LRC packed with Crusaders, Inquisitor fishing for invis, DCAs, and a priest. If your meta allows FW, take a Sicaran tank for anti-Wave Serpent and to plug the anti-air hole. Fill the rest of points with psybacks and more MSU psyker+bolter acolyte henchmen squads.

My take on an "armour saturation" list.

Walking DKs move 6", not 12". The PT changes them to Jump MCs, gaining a 12" move. Just say'n.

SJ

I think that the Personal Teleporter has become so universal to the build of a DK that most people forget its an add-on

Exactly.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Envihon wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
The way I see it, 6th edition parking lot became way less effective because we couldn't score with MSUs sitting in vehicles anymore. We just swung way back over the pendulum where now our DTs and their contents can score... (And count as Objective Secured, to boot...)

This has almost made me want to try and break out the Rhinos again to see if I could have anymore luck with them. Either way, I can't CC whether they pop out of DT or DS in, I only will be able to shoot that turn and assault the next. The only good thing is being able to leave the Rhino behind on an objective. It definitely makes Razorbacks more valuable even if you just keep the Heavy Bolter with psybolts. Maybe I should try putting the armor back into my army to try it out, it would certainly allow my GKSS to be on the board turn one to help the shunting team.

Anyone use Rhinos or Razorbacks in 7th with their GKs and meet success? And not henchman...real GK.

I personally feel that the value of GKSS has dropped if you don't plan to Deepstrike them and instead stick them in transports. They lost Quake, and won't assault till much later in the game, which devalues one of their core advantages over a tac marine.

The little I've played my GKs in 7th so far I've had a blast running 3x HI only Dreadknights. They are slow, but three Torrent Flamers and tough MCs marching up the middle has a good degree of board control and it is only 480pts. I always ran mine with PTs, now I'm looking at builds that keep them cheap. I used to run them 2-3 with PT HI GS at 260pts for Shunt --> Flame --> T2 Charge.

I'm exploring the options of 7th as 1-3 is always Objective Secured thanks to Grand Strategy and board control and a nasty flamer go along way.

My one problem is that I have been running a GK army with only one DK and I realize this as a weakness. I love Dreadnoughts so much I have been trying to make mine work but right now my list could definitely use a second DK to up the stakes a bit.

Are DKs the be all to end all HS choice still though? While they didn't really see a change themselves through the edition change, with the new resurgence of vehicles Psyflemen have seen a second life.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
The thing with the Vindicare is that you can now attach other characters to him. +65 points gets you an inquisitor with terminator armor.
Don't for get you can hide him out of sight and pop off shots with his pistol.
With a pair or three attached characters, he is pretty solid holding the line behind a defense line.

The real problem with him is that he's unique. If I could run 3 of them, I would.

At that point might as well throw him in a bastion, then he can also man the gun on top

With TAU and eldar rising, i found that my 2-3 dreadknights died rather fast in the end of 6.ed. I don't see a big change to that now. I have played 14+ games in 7.ed, all with psyflemen, and been really satisfied with them. People seem to go for more and more AV11-12 tranports where the psyflemen really shine. 2-3 psyflemen over 2-3 knights also gives more points to other stuff.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:Are DKs the be all to end all HS choice still though? While they didn't really see a change themselves through the edition change, with the new resurgence of vehicles Psyflemen have seen a second life.

Tyfus wrote:With TAU and eldar rising, i found that my 2-3 dreadknights died rather fast in the end of 6.ed. I don't see a big change to that now. I have played 14+ games in 7.ed, all with psyflemen, and been really satisfied with them. People seem to go for more and more AV11-12 tranports where the psyflemen really shine. 2-3 psyflemen over 2-3 knights also gives more points to other stuff.

Don't know about you guys, but I'm seeing more and more AV13/14 vehicles show up in the meta... Of which Psyflemen don't really do well at.

Sure, but those vehicles are alongside lots of Av 11/12 where the psyfulman will do pretty well.

Ok, well here's something to chew on. There was an Imperial Knight put up as a prize at a tourney at my local store a couple of months ago. I'd never considered adding a knight to my GK's, but since it was free I figured why not? To be clear: this is a BAD list. I've also had a blast with it.
@1500pts

Strike Squad w/ x2 psycannons

x5 Termies w/ x1 psycannon and a Maleus Terminator with Hammer/Psycannon

x5 Interceptors w/ Incinerator

Stormraven (Psybolt ammo, assault cannon, hurricane bolters, and multimelta) w/ ~x7 DCA

Knight Errant

Add on Hammers/Halberds/Psybolt Ammo to taste.

It's kind of a turn 2 shunt list. The SS and Termies deep strike, and the interceptors lay low until they can warp over and go roast cultists or something. I use the errant as a kind of mega-suicide-distraction-carnifex, and hope he soaks up all the fire before detonating in the middle of the enemy line. He has this annoying habit of surviving though... I think it'll work better at 2k points with some more bodies or maybe a DK + another interceptor squad to make it into more of a first turn threat. As it is, most games end up with just the Knight Errant stomping around a desolate wasteland while the Stormraven flaps around looking for an objective to sit on. The poor poor infantry just get taken apart.

Hey guys!

I'm thinking of gk+eldar list, which you can find below:
GM Draigo
M.L. 2 (Divination)

Terminator x5
1 Incinerator
2 D.hammer
2 halberd
Justicar w. hammer

Strike squad x5
Force Halberds x3
Razorback
Twin-las

Nemesis Dreadknight
Greatsword
Heavy incinerator
Personal teleporter

Dreadnought
twin autocannon
twin autocannon
psybolt

___

Spiritseer
Farseer
The spirit stone… (-1 wc cost)

Wraithguard x5
Wave Serpent
Twin Bright lance
Holo-fields

Warp spiders x6
Wave Serpent
Twin Bright lance
Holo-fields

Jetbike sqad x3

It seems pretty balanced to me.
also i tried Imperial Knight (Knight Paladin) and it was really great, but it costs a lot and my friends hate me for bringing him on the table, so i decided to make an alternative list. also its quite easy to destroy if you have proper weapons..

Here you can see pretty good amount of wc + rerollable hits/wonds rolls on everything (thanks to mass buffs).

the only weakness that i can see is absence of purifiers, but i cannot decide what is better - mobile and dangerous warp spiders or Purifiers in Rhinos..

Especially after Zimko`s comment about their double effectiveness in combo 3 rhino units..

Psyrifle Dreads are good but the thing is if you are that worried about a vehicle and didn't bring anything, the DK still has great CC that it can use to take on vehicles and with a PT, it can move 12" and easily take it out. I think I have taken out more vehicles with my DK than I have with my dreadnoughts but also, Psyrifle Dreads do cost less so there is that with 2 Psyrifle being roughly the cost of one DK with a PT.

Played my first game of 7th Edition with my Grey Knights last weekend. I lost horrible, but there were some bad rolls involved, and it wasn't an ideal match-up. But, it did give me a chance to test out the new Psychic Phase. Woo, boy, is that a nerfbat to the GK's psychic strength. Not only have we lost most of our unique powers, but we don't even get to successfully cast as many as we used to. Sure, I had a dozen warp charge dice, but when it came time to send six squads into assault, only three successfully cast Hammerhand. Last edition, all six would have had Hammerhand up, in addition to the powers my Librarian had.

Certainly, our psychic defense is pretty strong, but our psychic offense took a real hit, I feel.

Sad part is, my friend couldn't understand my point. All he saw from his side of the table was the huge pile of warp dice I had. I figure, when he gives his Elder army a try, he'll understand what I'm talking about.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Played my first game of 7th Edition with my Grey Knights last weekend. I lost horrible, but there were some bad rolls involved, and it wasn't an ideal match-up. But, it did give me a chance to test out the new Psychic Phase. Woo, boy, is that a nerfbat to the GK's psychic strength. Not only have we lost most of our unique powers, but we don't even get to successfully cast as many as we used to. Sure, I had a dozen warp charge dice, but when it came time to send six squads into assault, only three successfully cast Hammerhand. Last edition, all six would have had Hammerhand up, in addition to the powers my Librarian had.

Certainly, our psychic defense is pretty strong, but our psychic offense took a real hit, I feel.

Sad part is, my friend couldn't understand my point. All he saw from his side of the table was the huge pile of warp dice I had. I figure, when he gives his Elder army a try, he'll understand what I'm talking about.

We are still one of the strongest psychic armies out there regardless because everyone is feeling the effects of the new psychic phase and honestly, I like it because it adds a more tactical sense to our psychic powers then just going ahead and activating force blades and hammerhand. It shows the value of those moves and that they should be taken for granted. I don't think this hurt the GK at all.

With DT being superscoring, the parking lots are definitely on their way back. However, if you play mainly maelstrom missions (with house rules to taste), the concept of an alpha strike is on the way out.

If you are going to spam DT, then take and hold is the way to play imho. That means you need something more than 3 henchmen, because the psyback will die.

The advantages I see for GK are deep strike, psycannons, and halberds (for clearing small troops off objectives). Plus, Grand Strategy.

Warp charges are an occasional bonus. If anything, I think GK got a nerf, cos you need all these extra psykers just to do what you could do in 6th - and you have to plan better because you can't activate the force in the opponent turn.

Purifiers don't have objective secured. So, they aren't great. A single Tau firewarrior that survives, wins the objective or takes the relic away. Same goes for paladins (outside of draigowing), psyflemen, purgation squads etc.

So my 7e list (once I finish my Raven) will be heavy on strikes, combat squadded, a few (3) razorbacks, and the Raven. DK will still appear, because I like them on the table, but if I really want to win a maelstrom game, I'll take more strikes.

Yeah, we can still probably get off more powers than most armies, but I really think that the loss of our units' individual powers was a harsh blow.

When I saw the new malefic discipline, I immediately thought of Warp Quake. What an awesome counter to summoning demons, and a really fluffy interaction as well. No demon summoning nearby a strike squad with the power up. But nope! It's gone. And Purgation squads are just strike marines with more psycannons. I mean, it will probably be addressed when we get a codex update, but it's still a shame.

Anyone else feel like the value of a GM dropped now that everything scores (granted, not OS, but DKs pretty much shred anything that's contesting it if it's not a Knight...) and the loss of Psychic Communion?

You still have objective secured with troops and Grand Strategy lets us nominate units to score as if they are Troops so no, I don't think they have lost their value. Being able to give objective secured to Interceptors, DKs or Dreadnoughts is still a valuable thing. Not only that but the other Grand Strategy benefits are still good as well.

I am sad to see most of our more unique psychic powers leave as much as the next guy but honestly, this makes casting psychic powers difficult for everyone. The daemon factory isn't as scary as people like to make it out to be. I don't think GK got that much of a nerf nor do I thiink we got a huge buff back to our 5th edition dominance.

My point with regards to Grand Strategy was more of that making 'ceptors, DKs, or Dreads scoring was because they couldn't score. Dreads for sitting backfield, 'ceptors and DKs for grabbing midfield and your opponent's objectives.

I think the added benefit of Objective Secured is minimal for DK and Dreads, and only marginally better for 'ceptors now though. DKs can clear other OS and most contesting units off of an objective pretty well in CC, Dreads if positioned well shouldn't be contested too often, leaving 'ceptors with the sole unit that would really benefit from Grand Strat OS.

Has anyone ever used Grand Strat for something besides making a unit scoring?

 Enigwolf wrote:
My point with regards to Grand Strategy was more of that making 'ceptors, DKs, or Dreads scoring was because they couldn't score. Dreads for sitting backfield, 'ceptors and DKs for grabbing midfield and your opponent's objectives.

I think the added benefit of Objective Secured is minimal for DK and Dreads, and only marginally better for 'ceptors now though. DKs can clear other OS and most contesting units off of an objective pretty well in CC, Dreads if positioned well shouldn't be contested too often, leaving 'ceptors with the sole unit that would really benefit from Grand Strat OS.

Has anyone ever used Grand Strat for something besides making a unit scoring?

I think you greatly underestimate the power of objective secured. Even on a dreadknight base it is easy to get within range of the objective and stay one inch away from him. Sure he might kill the unit if going second. But if going first that enemy unit now claims it and stops you from doing so.

Also having scoring dreads gives you a decently durable backfield holder while the rest of your forces advance.

 Leth wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
My point with regards to Grand Strategy was more of that making 'ceptors, DKs, or Dreads scoring was because they couldn't score. Dreads for sitting backfield, 'ceptors and DKs for grabbing midfield and your opponent's objectives.

I think the added benefit of Objective Secured is minimal for DK and Dreads, and only marginally better for 'ceptors now though. DKs can clear other OS and most contesting units off of an objective pretty well in CC, Dreads if positioned well shouldn't be contested too often, leaving 'ceptors with the sole unit that would really benefit from Grand Strat OS.

Has anyone ever used Grand Strat for something besides making a unit scoring?

I think you greatly underestimate the power of objective secured. Even on a dreadknight base it is easy to get within range of the objective and stay one inch away from him. Sure he might kill the unit if going second. But if going first that enemy unit now claims it and stops you from doing so.

Also having scoring dreads gives you a decently durable backfield holder while the rest of your forces advance.

Agreed on all points, hence, why I was asking if that alone was worth the points cost and HQ slot of a GM.

Worth alone? Not in the slightest, for his cost you can get more actual scoring units. However with occupying an HQ slot, bringing in servo skulls as well as some other stuff he is definately worth his points(psyker as well doesnt hurt)

 Leth wrote:
Worth alone? Not in the slightest, for his cost you can get more actual scoring units. However with occupying an HQ slot, bringing in servo skulls as well as some other stuff he is definately worth his points(psyker as well doesnt hurt)

Again, like you said, from a points-perspective, if it's just for psyker and servoskulls, an Inquisitor is far cheaper for the same.

MarkCron wrote:

Purifiers don't have objective secured. So, they aren't great. A single Tau firewarrior that survives, wins the objective or takes the relic away.

Unless you take Crowe or use Grand Strategy. Purifiers make great objective secured troops. For 180 points you get a rhino, 5 fearless MEQ holding 2 psycannons and capable of casting cleansing flame and an Objective Secured Rhino that gives another warp charge (or can cast Sanctuary on a DK for a 4++). Not a bad deal.

Zimko wrote:

MarkCron wrote:

Purifiers don't have objective secured. So, they aren't great. A single Tau firewarrior that survives, wins the objective or takes the relic away.

Unless you take Crowe or use Grand Strategy. Purifiers make great objective secured troops. For 180 points you get a rhino, 5 fearless MEQ holding 2 psycannons and capable of casting cleansing flame and an Objective Secured Rhino that gives another warp charge (or can cast Sanctuary on a DK for a 4++). Not a bad deal.

Sanctuary's a Blessing that targets the psyker, just fyi.

 Enigwolf wrote:


Sanctuary's a Blessing that targets the psyker, just fyi.

Ah, touche. Nvm on that point then. Doesn't hurt them too much though as the rhino is still an extra OS model and gives a warp charge.