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nkelsch wrote:

 Moktor wrote:

How many people here play alternative games but would return to GW and stay there if they would just fix their game?

Apparently, You can charge 80$ for a model if your ruleset is super balanced and that 80$ model is 1/3rd of your total basic army. You don't need to actually make the model cheaper.

That is the thing, while people complain about the prices, they are gladly paying the exact same prices per model because they feel like they are getting a 'better' gaming experience. So if GW made a rule set which was competitive, balanced and worked at levels of 750 points, apparently the models cost would no longer be a factor.

You are exactly right. I play one-off friendly games of 40k when I can, but I will travel to play in competitive W/H whenever possible. If GW cleaned up their game I probably would be willing to play and pay more than I do now.

People say that the game doesn't have to be balanced, it is all about the "fun." Well, for many of us, "fun" IS the balanced competitive game. The funny thing is, a balanced game can be enjoyed by anyone, regardless of hobby/fluff/competitive mindsets. A poorly made game immediately eliminates one option.

My local owner always turns the discussion to price to show that (in this example) PP games are negligibly cheaper. Then I remember that the argument really is less about cost and more about the over-arching business decisions coupled with a weak ruleset. Inconsistent pricing, rules, and even fluff make the game a mess.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
I'd like to hear Mikhaila's commentary on this one...

"Sure", he said, wondering how much he'd get flamed this time around.......

On discounting....

I can't compete with online discounters. If you promise to buy if I offer 10% off, you'll buy from the guy offering 20%. If I offer 20%, you'll buy at 30% online. There are some guys offering more than that. Plus, i am in a state that makes me collect sales tax. (COLLECT, not charge. I don't get to keep it, it goes to the state). People say I should match online and eat the sales tax cost. Offer 46% off to match some guys 40% off.

Won't work. I simply can't stay in business at that margin. Can't pay the 7k a month in rent and utilities. Pay my employess a good wage. Pay myself enough to have a family.

On competing with online stores...

So buying loyalty by discounting doesn't work at all. Gamers are only loyal until a bigger discount comes along. Retailers call it "racing to the bottom".

So what does work? I won't talk for other retailers, but I try to compete this way:
-Have stuff on the shelf that people want. You can count on walking in the store and finding it. Not me saying "but i can special order it".
-Being open long hours, 7 days a week.
-Having a large area to play games with your friends, whether it's board games, miniatures, or magic. No charge, always available.
-Taking pre-orders and making sure they arrive, for limited product. You need me to beat up GW for 10 more copies of Space Hulk? NP.
-Events, painting, modeling.
-Knowing what the hell you are talking about. No glassy stare as you tell me about your army.
-Staying open late so people can play until 1am, and meet up with friends.
-Clean store, clean bathrooms, air conditioning.

It's working so far for a couple of decades, but does feel like Stalingrad at times. Hard not to kill the people playing on the tables who announce they only buy online.

I do find ironic the huge outpouring of Love when a store announces it's closing. If you like your FLGS, then support it. And the time to support it is now, not when they decide to close the doors.

On GW NA's policy of not selling to non-BM stores, and not allowing online sales other than their own.
-I think it does help out BM stores, and BM stores make GW a lot of money.
-I think it does help my store out a bit, but not quantifiable. I think it helps out Neal at the Warstore more.
-I think it helps GW more, since they still sell online, while not letting anyone else do so.
-Is this policy necessary to keep around the BM stores that help keep alive the hobby and their business? No clue at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
So, looking at the original post, GW is great because they somehow protect the sales of the local stores by being harsh on internet sales (all the while GW is making more and more of the products available only from their own store), and they're great to the local store because they toss in a few freebies if the store maintains a certain level of GW stock? And Privateer Press is bad because they do none of these things?

And here I thought Privateer Press was good for stores because of the support they show for active gaming and tournament play which helps sell the product, while GW was bad for stores because they do absolutely nothing to help the stores sell the product.

Both statements have a lot of truth to them But neither company is 'bad'.

GW needs to build community and support events the way Privateer does.

Privateer could better support stores in many ways. They mostly support community and pressgangers, not stores.

Both need to keep more of their models in stock and available to retailers to have on their shelves.

I still say it's low of a person who buys else where and then play at a store and not buy anything there.

The way I see it, want to buy else where, play else where. Other wise why are you at the store in the first place?

Davor wrote:
I still say it's low of a person who buys else where and then play at a store and not buy anything there.

The way I see it, want to buy else where, play else where. Other wise why are you at the store in the first place?

I cannot agree with this more.

If you regularly use a store to met with friends, chin wag and play games and then buy else where you are nothing more than a parasite. You are contributing nothing to that store and, although impossible to do, you should pay to play at that store. Nothing in life is free - why should you get free use of tables etc - it isnt a club house.

How the heck do you expect a store to survive and provide those facilities -oh yes, I see, by other people paying.

Yes, parasite describes it perfectly.

Thanks, this does sum things up well. I don't PERSONALLY fall into the lines of your discount point, but I am willing to bet I am in the minority. I buy occasional items in store at MSRP, and usually buy "non-essentials" discounted. You know, those models one gets because they just want to be a completionist, but will probably never use them? (I'm looking at you, Scyrah Destors!). But heck, maybe I am just good at making excuses. One thing you DID say is how you keep people buying at full price... keep a freaking stock. I *KNOW* I am not the only impulse buyer out there, my owner explicitly said that people don't impulse-buy models. Tell that to our next-nearest game store, two hours away. I have bought lots of junk SIMPLY because it was on the wall. I have done it locally as well, but there isn't very much on the wall so...

I think this was excellent input, because I think we all secretly realize that owners need to eat, and that you don't do it for charity. That being said, I think my local owner could use a few tweaks to really get things going. Realize, of course, that this is not a big city, and he isn't going to be able to stock like a store that is located in one.

 mikhaila wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
I'd like to hear Mikhaila's commentary on this one...

"Sure", he said, wondering how much he'd get flamed this time around.......

On discounting....

I can't compete with online discounters. If you promise to buy if I offer 10% off, you'll buy from the guy offering 20%. If I offer 20%, you'll buy at 30% online. There are some guys offering more than that. Plus, i am in a state that makes me collect sales tax. (COLLECT, not charge. I don't get to keep it, it goes to the state). People say I should match online and eat the sales tax cost. Offer 46% off to match some guys 40% off.

Won't work. I simply can't stay in business at that margin. Can't pay the 7k a month in rent and utilities. Pay my employess a good wage. Pay myself enough to have a family.

On competing with online stores...

So buying loyalty by discounting doesn't work at all. Gamers are only loyal until a bigger discount comes along. Retailers call it "racing to the bottom".

So what does work? I won't talk for other retailers, but I try to compete this way:
-Have stuff on the shelf that people want. You can count on walking in the store and finding it. Not me saying "but i can special order it".
-Being open long hours, 7 days a week.
-Having a large area to play games with your friends, whether it's board games, miniatures, or magic. No charge, always available.
-Taking pre-orders and making sure they arrive, for limited product. You need me to beat up GW for 10 more copies of Space Hulk? NP.
-Events, painting, modeling.
-Knowing what the hell you are talking about. No glassy stare as you tell me about your army.
-Staying open late so people can play until 1am, and meet up with friends.
-Clean store, clean bathrooms, air conditioning.

It's working so far for a couple of decades, but does feel like Stalingrad at times. Hard not to kill the people playing on the tables who announce they only buy online.

I do find ironic the huge outpouring of Love when a store announces it's closing. If you like your FLGS, then support it. And the time to support it is now, not when they decide to close the doors.

On GW NA's policy of not selling to non-BM stores, and not allowing online sales other than their own.
-I think it does help out BM stores, and BM stores make GW a lot of money.
-I think it does help my store out a bit, but not quantifiable. I think it helps out Neal at the Warstore more.
-I think it helps GW more, since they still sell online, while not letting anyone else do so.
-Is this policy necessary to keep around the BM stores that help keep alive the hobby and their business? No clue at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
So, looking at the original post, GW is great because they somehow protect the sales of the local stores by being harsh on internet sales (all the while GW is making more and more of the products available only from their own store), and they're great to the local store because they toss in a few freebies if the store maintains a certain level of GW stock? And Privateer Press is bad because they do none of these things?

And here I thought Privateer Press was good for stores because of the support they show for active gaming and tournament play which helps sell the product, while GW was bad for stores because they do absolutely nothing to help the stores sell the product.

Both statements have a lot of truth to them But neither company is 'bad'.

GW needs to build community and support events the way Privateer does.

Privateer could better support stores in many ways. They mostly support community and pressgangers, not stores.

Both need to keep more of their models in stock and available to retailers to have on their shelves.

Davor wrote:
I still say it's low of a person who buys else where and then play at a store and not buy anything there.

The way I see it, want to buy else where, play else where. Other wise why are you at the store in the first place?

You said it yourself - they want to play there. Why don't the stores charge for that privilege so that people can contribute what they use rather than fudging the numbers through pricier sales? The guy who plays 20 hours a week in the store but buys one box every month pays far less compared to the guy who buys a box a week and plays for 2 hours a week. Paying 4 times as much for 10% of the "product". As a rough example to illustrate the point. I happily pay my share to rent club rooms to avoid that nonsense thought and it works out to *far* less than by paying retail.

 Yonan wrote:
Why don't the stores charge for that privilege so that people can contribute what they use rather than fudging the numbers through pricier sales?

Generally because people will refuse to pay to play in stores.

The US gaming culture is quite different to ours. We're used to paying for space to play, because gaming clubs are far more prevalent... but even here, the few times I've heard of stores trying to charge for tables it's been met with hostility.

Charging to play in campaigns or tournaments is fine. Charging for open gaming? Not so much.

Remember though that Australian/NZ and UK are the minority in how they play when it comes to how the world games. The only reason why people put so much stock in the way they play is that GW is based in the UK and for years has been pushing these skewed notions upon the world.

Also that in places like the UK, not sure if it's the same as in Aus/NZ, but GW has for many years driven a lot of local game stores out of business or away, thus prompting the need for people to create game clubs out of necessity, combined with space being less available overall.

My US store here has had to, in the past, kick out or deter groups from using the tables that aren't contributing to sales, or at least play sellable products. This included some RPG groups who almost never bought anything, yet still insisted on coming in and taking up all the tables for a day. Or some people pushing lego games

Also, US gamers can and do form game clubs. But they usually form tangentially around stores where there is free gaming space. Where there isn't a store, game clubs will form up around community spaces. There's probably more game clubs in the US than all of UK and Australia combined due to sheer size and population of the US.

As for the original topic. GW's practices are only good for GW and GW's stores. GW has a habit of screwing over their own store relations by purposely opening up retail shops next to successful stores and driving business away from those shops.

 insaniak wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
Why don't the stores charge for that privilege so that people can contribute what they use rather than fudging the numbers through pricier sales?

Generally because people will refuse to pay to play in stores.

The US gaming culture is quite different to ours. We're used to paying for space to play, because gaming clubs are far more prevalent... but even here, the few times I've heard of stores trying to charge for tables it's been met with hostility.

Charging to play in campaigns or tournaments is fine. Charging for open gaming? Not so much.

If they're also being charged full retail I'd refuse too ; p

It's fine to go either way, but to generalise as parasites or "low behaviour" like in the posts above mine is where I take issue.

 Vertrucio wrote:
My US store here has had to, in the past, kick out or deter groups from using the tables that aren't contributing to sales, or at least play sellable products. This included some RPG groups who almost never bought anything, yet still insisted on coming in and taking up all the tables for a day. Or some people pushing lego games

That's why charging for table space seems like the ideal solution. If they want the community but not the products on sale, they pay for that instead and the store still makes its money.

Most game stores that I have been to did charge for table space - and two went under when they crossed a line on how much they were charging for the use.

$2 - $5?

No problem.

But trying to charge $10 sent folks to the mail order retailers as well as finding other places to run their games. (This was before the internet was all that powerful... though I was on FIDO and PLink at the time.)

Mind you, I think that the attempt at $10 per head was a symptom of the store losing money - but making the attempt nailed the coffin lids in place.

The Auld Grump

 Yonan wrote:

That's why charging for table space seems like the ideal solution. If they want the community but not the products on sale, they pay for that instead and the store still makes its money.

It sounds good, but rarely works stateside. My FLGS did that to Tuesday nights, making it so you had to be a member of a specific group (that paid 'dues', basically paying the store for table space) etc to play on Tuesdays.

It lasted a few months before the numbers totally fell off, and went back to the old system.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
Mind you, I think that the attempt at $10 per head was a symptom of the store losing money - but making the attempt nailed the coffin lids in place.

Yep I don't doubt it's on the difficult side to run a profitable store for a relatively small hobby like ours.

Stores can make better use of their tables by running more events that have an entry fee, instead of charging for table use.

This has two net positives in that it gathers gamers together, and promotes the store to new people since a lot of events can pull in players that play at other places or in private groups.

It also promotes the games themselves, showing a community that the game is popular enough to warrant these events.

It just doesn't sit well to just charge to use a space. Even these game clubs don't do that. Instead, it's better to charge entry fees, or club dues. That's why no one balks over club fees to use a space, it's because the entire club is descending down on this space to use it to their exclusivity.

That same RPG group that was deterred from coming back balked big time when the store owner proposed that they pay to use the large, hard to find elsewhere gaming tables for regular gaming. When a conflict came up between them and the CCG players after that, it was clear who had to go since the RPG group literally hadn't bought anything for months, most didn't even buy their books in store.

They can't run events 24/7. Yes running events I imagine is important (I don't go to stores so can't say how much), but that still leaves the other 90% of the table time. It's not one or the other. As said above, I like gaming clubs and pay my share of room rent rather than by the hour which works great for clubs, not so much for pickup games I imagine. A store could run all 3 systems - events with entry fees, general pay by the hour use and "club" membership with a yearly fee or what not. Let people choose what's best for them. Could even give out free table use for large purchasers.

If the RPG group didn't value the tables enough to pay for them one way or the other I see no problem with revoking their playing privilege.

 Yonan wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
Mind you, I think that the attempt at $10 per head was a symptom of the store losing money - but making the attempt nailed the coffin lids in place.

Yep I don't doubt it's on the difficult side to run a profitable store for a relatively small hobby like ours.

Both of the stores concerned also started competing in their own events - and usually winning.

For some reason people stopped coming to the events. Space Marine for the first store, Necromunda for the second - with lots of 'house rules'. *EDIT* Including a rule that the winning team got to keep all the weapons and gear from fallen warriors from the losing team - so the winners kept on winning, and the losers kept on losing.

Though... if I remember properly, that second store actually vanished in a bitter divorce. (The money from the store came from the wife, but the store was run by the husband... who had an affair with the young woman that he had hired as a clerk.)

He may have been trying to get money to separate the store from his wife, before she found out about his infidelity.

The Auld Grump, this story has no moral, this story has no end.
This story only goes to show, there ain't no good in men....

Business acumen and ethics doesn't necessarily go hand in hand with a hobbyist trying to "live his dream" I guess ; p Isn't it something like 70% of small businesses fail pretty quickly too?

Charging for table time does not work. It puts the staff of the store into an adversarial relationship with it's customers.

Think hard on how the actual mechanics would be....

-Gamer walks in to store, puts cases on table. At what point do I walk over to collect his fee? Hassle him at the start? Wait for a buddy to show up? Round 1?
-Do I charge hourly and keep track of the time? Per day no matter how little, how long?
-Do it on the honor system? Let players toss coins in a jar.

I frankly think it would just pit me against my players. Some would see it as hounding them for money. Others would pay for a table, and feel justified never spending another cent in the store.
I don't want to have to chase after a few bucks from guys wanting to play Warhammer. I think we'd all grow to hate it.

If it was something like a Pool Hall, maybe. You can't complain to the pool table. You put in the quarters, play a game.

Instead of charging for play space, what I've done is:
-Made several hundred pieces of terrain that makes the stuff in a GW store look like crap.
-Set up a dozen 8x4 tables that are always open for play.
-Supply dice and measuring tapes if you don't have yours. (and of course have a nice assortment to sell to you)
-Free paints, glue, and modeling tools for our classes. Generally friday nights and all day saturday. Sit, paint, model. Get help if needed.
-Seperate tables for boardgaming.
-Seperate tables for card games.
-Open late for lots of gaming.
-A pot of Chili if I feel like abusing people. Or steak sandwiches. Usually reservered for big weekend events.

Hopefully my players appreciate it and support the store. if it doesn't work, charging for space won't help.

1. Post sign "please see staff at counter to purchase table access".
2. Player goes to counter to purchase table access like any other product.
3. Player plays on table.

People found to be cheating the system get a warning, then get banned. Policing should be minimal overhead, just like any other part of the store. Charging for table time in no way puts staff in an adversarial position. Having "free table access" dependant on purchase of products is a much more adversarial system as you'll constantly police players for how much they spend to see if they're pulling their weight.

Your system sounds workable, a nice tabletop setup as an incentive to play at your store. If that translates into good sales - sweet. If it doesn't, it still sounds like the tables would be worth renting. If the US "scene" isn't into renting and it doesn't translate well into sales, that just sucks but surely reasonable people can see they need to pay for the privilege, one way or the other. Else they sort playing space themselves. What you describe is basically our clubs - good terrain, good people, good food and drinks, but we pay bugger all for it.

 mikhaila wrote:
Charging for table time does not work. It puts the staff of the store into an adversarial relationship with it's customers.

Think hard on how the actual mechanics would be....

-Gamer walks in to store, puts cases on table. At what point do I walk over to collect his fee? Hassle him at the start? Wait for a buddy to show up? Round 1?
-Do I charge hourly and keep track of the time? Per day no matter how little, how long?
-Do it on the honor system? Let players toss coins in a jar.

I frankly think it would just pit me against my players. Some would see it as hounding them for money. Others would pay for a table, and feel justified never spending another cent in the store.
I don't want to have to chase after a few bucks from guys wanting to play Warhammer. I think we'd all grow to hate it.

If it was something like a Pool Hall, maybe. You can't complain to the pool table. You put in the quarters, play a game.

Instead of charging for play space, what I've done is:
-Made several hundred pieces of terrain that makes the stuff in a GW store look like crap.
-Set up a dozen 8x4 tables that are always open for play.
-Supply dice and measuring tapes if you don't have yours. (and of course have a nice assortment to sell to you)
-Free paints, glue, and modeling tools for our classes. Generally friday nights and all day saturday. Sit, paint, model. Get help if needed.
-Seperate tables for boardgaming.
-Seperate tables for card games.
-Open late for lots of gaming.
-A pot of Chili if I feel like abusing people. Or steak sandwiches. Usually reservered for big weekend events.

Hopefully my players appreciate it and support the store. if it doesn't work, charging for space won't help.

I am now incredibly jealous I don't have a store like yours near me.

I do have one that's not too far away though and has a great atmosphere. Its usually too far to get up there on gaming night but last weekend me and a couple of friends spent $400+ there just because we popped in and got caught up talking to the owner about the projects we had on the go, the upcoming painting classes and some new stock.

Davor wrote:
I still say it's low of a person who buys else where and then play at a store and not buy anything there.

The way I see it, want to buy else where, play else where. Other wise why are you at the store in the first place?

I strongly disagree. If you are a gaming store owner you should want as many players as you can get so long as their attitude is decent. Even if they don't directly help your bottom line just being there so that paying customers can get a game will.

 Yonan wrote:
1. Post sign "please see staff at counter to purchase table access".
2. Player goes to counter to purchase table access like any other product.
3. Player plays on table.

Problem with this, is I know for me, if I have to pay to play, then why buy stuff at the store? After all if I am being charged to play, the store is already having my money, why should it get more if I am not getting a big discount if I buy from there

Also Please if it is this easy, why don't you start up a store or just a "Play here store" and see how much money you get. From Rent, to Hydro, to Water and taxes, how much money are you really going to make from charging to play?

An idead I could think of is, buy water from the store. Buy the chips, chocolate bars or what ever for snacks from the store then. Also you don't have to buy EVERY PURCHASE you make at that store, but paints, glues, regular purchases. I am sure the store will understand if you don't buy the $200 purchase from him but the $50, purchase should be made at that store, if you are playing there a lot.

Davor wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
1. Post sign "please see staff at counter to purchase table access".
2. Player goes to counter to purchase table access like any other product.
3. Player plays on table.

Problem with this, is I know for me, if I have to pay to play, then why buy stuff at the store? After all if I am being charged to play, the store is already having my money, why should it get more if I am not getting a big discount if I buy from there

That's exactly the point. By charging for tables they get an income stream that allows them to offer a discount to compete with the online discounters. Online discounters have lower overheads due to no things such as space to hold gaming tables. When those gaming tables bring in an income they don't need to be subsidised by higher product prices.

There are a number of ways to go about it, but don't be so quick to generalise people as being parasites or unethical is my point.

 Yonan wrote:

Davor wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
1. Post sign "please see staff at counter to purchase table access".
2. Player goes to counter to purchase table access like any other product.
3. Player plays on table.

Problem with this, is I know for me, if I have to pay to play, then why buy stuff at the store? After all if I am being charged to play, the store is already having my money, why should it get more if I am not getting a big discount if I buy from there

That's exactly the point. By charging for tables they get an income stream that allows them to offer a discount to compete with the online discounters. Online discounters have lower overheads due to no things such as space to hold gaming tables. When those gaming tables bring in an income they don't need to be subsidised by higher product prices.

There are a number of ways to go about it, but don't be so quick to generalise people as being parasites or unethical is my point.

Wont work. Period. Been tried by retailers, fails. Discussed quite a few times at seminars and in retailer forums.
The amount brought in isn't worth the hassle of collecting it and ill will it generates from your gamers for charging. People don't come to the shop as much, and you lose more in sales than you gain in fees. The players that pay get pissed at the guys that skip paying. Stores are not clubs. While this can work at a club with dues or fees, the players feel they are in charge of the club. Works different for a store. And clubs often charge a monthly/yearly fee. A store wont' be able to do that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

Davor wrote:
I still say it's low of a person who buys else where and then play at a store and not buy anything there.

The way I see it, want to buy else where, play else where. Other wise why are you at the store in the first place?

I strongly disagree. If you are a gaming store owner you should want as many players as you can get so long as their attitude is decent. Even if they don't directly help your bottom line just being there so that paying customers can get a game will.

If these hypothetical non-customers could add benefit to a shop, most shop owners wouldn't mind the table space. But in reality, most of these guys don't want to play new players, don't teach people to play, and are fairly competitive. Many only play within their little cliques, arriving and leaving together. Not all, but by and large the majority. They quickly disprove the idea that the store gets value from just having people in the store. As you said "if their attitude is decent", but often it isn't.

And if a store doesn't have enough table space for paying customers, they are immediately a detriment.

 mikhaila wrote:
Wont work. Period.

Worked for some stores mentioned by Ye Olde Grump mentioned above. Period.

 Yonan wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:
Wont work. Period.

Worked for some stores mentioned by Ye Olde Grump mentioned above. Period.

For a time, sure. He also mentioned that (at least) two of those are no longer in business.

Mikhaila's been doing this (and doing this well) for quite a while now.

Given the high failure rate of local business, some businesses failing is not a surprise especially given some of the non-business reasons he mentioned. That some succeeded indicates that the absolute "It won't work. Period." is false though which was my point there.

I don't really care tbh, I only joined in the conversation to argue against the use of insults against people who buy from discounters.

So why would you charge people to casually play on your tables?

 Adam-Wayland wrote:
So why would you charge people to casually play on your tables?

Because there are some very large online retailers that take their customers with cheaper prices I think is the usual answer ; p They're (maybe) left between charging higher prices and therefore risk losing sales or competing on price but needing to increase income by some other means.

The tables being a large draw to the store, if people are there for the tables and not the products it's a reasonable option to sell the tables as a product.

Who goes to a restaurant because they happen to be passing and see a bunch of people inside...?

Most gaming shops with table space, that I've seen, are way out of the way of idle window shoppers. And 'being quiet' sounds like a baffling reason to stay away, to my mind.

 insaniak wrote:
It's a general theme in threads discussing stores and the associated issues with running them... Some people feel that if a store offers free gaming space, you're morally obliged to spend money there if you make use of that free service.

I don't feel "morally obliged"
I do believe in "pay where you play" though.
It's purely for selfish reasons.
I don't want the place I'm gaming at to close through lack of business.
It's not moral, it's pure selfishness.