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There are various popular boardgames such as Settlers of Catan that have been issued as digital versions that work really nicely on tablets and so on. These are nearly as close as you can get to the hypothetical 1:1 digital wargame, because those kind of boardgames use mostly flat maps, counters and cards, not painted 3D models and terrain.

The effect of the digital versions has been to lift sales of the original games, because people get interested by playing the digital version, and then realise they can have a better social experience playing around a table with friends instead of over a network.

There is also a dimension of collecting and owning a shelf of nice games rather than an invisible string of 1s and 0s.

 malfred wrote:

 Ozymandias wrote:
When I was playing XCOM, all I could think about was how perfectly it could replicate Necromunda. Plus, I'd get to play it on my ipad while pooping, double bonus!

We could totally play Necromunda in your bathroom if you're interested...

Don't tease me malf!

 Ozymandias wrote:

 malfred wrote:

 Ozymandias wrote:
When I was playing XCOM, all I could think about was how perfectly it could replicate Necromunda. Plus, I'd get to play it on my ipad while pooping, double bonus!

We could totally play Necromunda in your bathroom if you're interested...

Don't tease me malf!

Who's teasing? The only issue is you live so far away...

I would support the computer game over the table top. With the way GW changes editions and codex often destroying armies people built by making their units over costed in order to sell new models that are powerful and under costed.

I hate the table top, I hate most of the people who play, I hate the judges, I hate the army I wasted my money on. I hate the cheese armies I had to fight. Above all, I hate GW. The only people I hate more are the douche bags who try to low ball me when I sell my army to quit this very un-balanced game. Offer me $20 for a $100 lot that I already discounted to 60% from retail. You cant even shoot flamers at invisible units! You can charge through walls! You can do all sorts of shenanigans that make absolutely no sense. On top of that is the whole, modeling for an advantage. The models are so poorly designed that people have to modify it to make it work and the rules are so poorly written that the model limitations are absurd.

I think I would, I fething love strategy games and DOW and the like, so I suspect, as much as I love minis and playing the regular game, that if there was an awesome digital version with great graphics and sound, and the ability to make a superb table with loads of great terrain, then I would indeed wind up playing it almost exclusively.

Esepcially if you could play with mates online, the ease of it would make it probably far more preferable than gearing up and fething off to a friends to play.

Sad, but true I reckon.

Chess has had more attention from computer programmers over the years than any other board game (perhaps more than all the others combined). If perfect emulation were possible then I think we would see it with chess first.

I play chess often online and on my phone, it is very convenient, but for me games are social: they are a way to spend time with people and have fun. I would rather play one real game with a friend on a proper wooden board than play a hundred computer games over the internet. There is something nice about being with a person and the atmosphere of the wooden pieces.

However, there are some games that work better on computer. I never really understood how anyone has the patience to play Reversi on a real board (too much flipping). I also recently played monopoly against a friend on her iPad and was surprised to find that the game only takes about 30 mins when you have a computer to do all the moving and banking for you. But I still enjoy the ceremony of getting the board out and playing properly.

In conclusion I would say that no matter how good computer games got, I would likely still play the real versions as much as possible, and play the computer versions too. I'd be more tempted, perhaps, by some kind of hybrid game that has real pieces, but is played on an interactive board using digital cards and markers. Shuffling cards, cocked dice, and packing away are all things I could happily live without. It would be fantastic to have a some kind of interactive table that could generate Space Hulk maps for you, or display blast templates and ranges for 40k.

Wh40k is not an easy game to set up like a game of chess. You need 6x2 feet of gaming space. You need terrain pieces like trees and ruins.You need armies. The amount of time needed to move units in coheshion is time consuming. The amount of time for d!psh!t players who like to roll each dice 1 at a time on a huge dice so they can manipulate it is like watching paint dry. If wh40k was translated into a digital pc turn based game then expensive scenry and models are eliminated and so will the need to release new over powered units to sell and nerf existing one. Also also moving large mobs will be easier as the pc keeps them 2" coheshion. There would be no los issues as fireing angles can be computed and checked like xcom. The need to manipulate and roll many dice will be crunched and computed faster than a pc Risk game.

To hell with the table top wh40k. 4 gw stores closed down around me leaving the nearest one 2 hours away. Forget the social aspect when you try to play local tournaments where the judges rule in favor of the locals.

I much prefer computer games, but I would still need resin and plastic crack and get the urge to make models.

Absolutely. The face to face human interaction is always preferable. The banter and camaraderie of friends and family.
Also a computer AI can always be beat once you know what the AI does. Human imagination and creativity can lead to some wonderful surprises and lesson.

 Filch wrote:
Wh40k is not an easy game to set up like a game of chess.

The thread to my understanding was generic and the original poster was theorizing in no game in particular, why are you centering everything on 40k, this game or GW are not everything there is.

Now boardgames are as said before more easily adaptable to a digital form, mostly because they do not involve the intricacies of wargames having a 3rd dimension been a particularly intriguing part of many especially modern sci fi wargames, I still feel a simulation of the real wargame would be too cumbersome to be worth it, but an adaption to a game would work, but would neither be a simulation nor the same game.

 Filch wrote:
I would support the computer game over the table top. With the way GW changes editions and codex often destroying armies people built by making their units over costed in order to sell new models that are powerful and under costed.

I hate the table top, I hate most of the people who play, I hate the judges, I hate the army I wasted my money on. I hate the cheese armies I had to fight. Above all, I hate GW. The only people I hate more are the douche bags who try to low ball me when I sell my army to quit this very un-balanced game. Offer me $20 for a $100 lot that I already discounted to 60% from retail. You cant even shoot flamers at invisible units! You can charge through walls! You can do all sorts of shenanigans that make absolutely no sense. On top of that is the whole, modeling for an advantage. The models are so poorly designed that people have to modify it to make it work and the rules are so poorly written that the model limitations are absurd.

These are all valid arguments against 40k, but why would you support a PC version of the game that will have all of the same things you hate?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
Now boardgames are as said before more easily adaptable to a digital form, mostly because they do not involve the intricacies of wargames having a 3rd dimension been a particularly intriguing part of many especially modern sci fi wargames, I still feel a simulation of the real wargame would be too cumbersome to be worth it, but an adaption to a game would work, but would neither be a simulation nor the same game.

I don't think the 3d aspect is really a problem, plenty of video games manage to do 3d worlds without any problems. The real adaptation issue is that a big part of miniatures games is getting to see the actual miniatures and terrain. On the other hand a board game is just a bunch of plastic/cardboard tokens, so you don't really lose anything when you convert that into digital tokens.

Its not an issue of creating a 3D world, but implementing the game mechanics in the world, particularly in the 1:1 translation of a wargame system to a digital game as the thread is about, the game mechanics are based on physically examining the interactions than having a program checking it, it is more chaotic and I would assume to program heavy to implement such interactions, likewise the volume checking and collision detection would be intriguing to see.

 Filch wrote:
Wh40k is not an easy game to set up like a game of chess. You need 6x2 feet of gaming space. You need terrain pieces like trees and ruins.You need... [etc]

The hardest part of setting up any game is finding an opponent. With people working/studying during the week, and wanting to go out at the weekends, it can sometimes take weeks for me to organize a gaming night (and even then none my friends like chess). If I want to play real chess OTB, I need to take a bus to a chess club, which only runs one night a week. The few mins difference in setup time between games is completely negligible compared to the days/weeks it can take to organize an opponent. Therefore, I have no choice but to play most of my chess games digitally over the internet. The fact that chess is an easy game to set up, doesn't even enter into it.

The OP's question was: would you still play the TT?, and my answers is: Yes! not only would I, but I already do. Even though I can play perfectly good games of chess without even getting out of bed -- I still sometimes brave the cold, catch a bus across town, and pay club fees, to have real games against real people.

The advent of digital chess hasn't reduced the number of real games I play. Rather, it has allowed me to play chess at times when I wouldn't otherwise be able to (such as 3:am). I still play real chess as much as I can (which isn't enough). If there were a digital version of a game like 40k, I imagine I would play that a lot too, and it would be great being able to find opponents and have a game on a whim. But I don't think it would reduce the number of real games I play, I'd still be up for a real game whenever I can arrange one, I might even be encouraged to seek out more real games.

Aside from maybe something to play on a laptop during travel time, I wouldn't play the computer game at all. I play miniature wargames because I like modeling, painting and playing a physical game. If I wanted to play a computer game then I would do just that. You cannot recreate the tabletop experience on a computer.

PsychoticStorm wrote:

 Filch wrote:
Wh40k is not an easy game to set up like a game of chess.

The thread to my understanding was generic and the original poster was theorizing in no game in particular, why are you centering everything on 40k, this game or GW are not everything there is.

Now boardgames are as said before more easily adaptable to a digital form, mostly because they do not involve the intricacies of wargames having a 3rd dimension been a particularly intriguing part of many especially modern sci fi wargames, I still feel a simulation of the real wargame would be too cumbersome to be worth it, but an adaption to a game would work, but would neither be a simulation nor the same game.

You are right I misunderstood what the op and this thread was about. This should have been a poll question in my opinion. Of course a majority of people would prefer real life social interaction because humans are social creatures. But many people have stated that they would play both the digital and the table top but prefer the table top. You get a few who swear off the PC. So this should have been a poll question not so much a discussion.

Peregrine wrote:

 Filch wrote:
I would support the computer game over the table top. With the way GW changes editions and codex often destroying armies people built by making their units over costed in order to sell new models that are powerful and under costed.

I hate the table top, I hate most of the people who play, I hate the judges, I hate the army I wasted my money on. I hate the cheese armies I had to fight. Above all, I hate GW. The only people I hate more are the douche bags who try to low ball me when I sell my army to quit this very un-balanced game. Offer me $20 for a $100 lot that I already discounted to 60% from retail. You cant even shoot flamers at invisible units! You can charge through walls! You can do all sorts of shenanigans that make absolutely no sense. On top of that is the whole, modeling for an advantage. The models are so poorly designed that people have to modify it to make it work and the rules are so poorly written that the model limitations are absurd.

These are all valid arguments against 40k, but why would you support a PC version of the game that will have all of the same things you hate?

Because I first started off playing Dawn of War on the pc. I really like the atmosphere, mythos, art style, VOICE ACTING, nearly everything about wh40k. I was excited to find out that college students like me meet up to play with toy soldiers at an establishment. I made friends with many other young adults like me but I started to realize there where menacing boy hungry pedophiles and other unpleasant people I did not want to associate with. I invested heavily into the hobby trying to support the store stay afloat. It closed down shortly within half a year. I tried to keep in touch with the players i met but we just drifted apart. I tried to go to another GW work shop nearby. This time I keep people distant and for good reason, the shop closed down with in months. I made minimal purchases. Once again I had to drive further out to another GW and meet even more random people. Same thing happens, but I made only a few small purchases. The next closest GW is at a mall with only 1 table. I really tried to meet players there and play games a their place but I was just not that comfortable, it was like meeting crack heads in a dark ally for a quick hit of warp dust. The nearest GW is nearly 2 hours drive away and its just not worth the effort for a 4 hour trip to play a 1-2 hour game.

At first I was oblivious to the short coming of GW publishing rules and the whole power creep thing, and imbalances. After they released a few armies and 1 edition later it became fully clear that GW is in the business to sell plastic toy models for exorbitant prices by re-writing their existing units in the codex to suck or be over priced in order to replace it with a new model that does the same job but better or cheaper but the cycle will continue as those new units would be replaced again in the next iteration. FineCast? more like CrapCast! I have seen the Chinese make better quality knock offs even cheaper!

The rules that GW publish are so poorly written that they need to have another company called Forge World step in and publish better rules often over powered and under costed for slightly better looking models at even higher prices! So that means I need to buy Forge World books and models to have a fighting chance.

Then they released flyers and Imperial Knights and I am done with this game.

Also, GW only stays afloat because they sue their competition. There are other better table top games with great minis and better written rules I have yet to play. The amount of resource to fight these legal battles could have been spent on better writers to publish better rules and balance the game better.

Smacks wrote:

 Filch wrote:
Wh40k is not an easy game to set up like a game of chess. You need 6x2 feet of gaming space. You need terrain pieces like trees and ruins.You need... [etc]

The hardest part of setting up any game is finding an opponent. With people working/studying during the week, and wanting to go out at the weekends, it can sometimes take weeks for me to organize a gaming night (and even then none my friends like chess). If I want to play real chess OTB, I need to take a bus to a chess club, which only runs one night a week. The few mins difference in setup time between games is completely negligible compared to the days/weeks it can take to organize an opponent. Therefore, I have no choice but to play most of my chess games digitally over the internet. The fact that chess is an easy game to set up, doesn't even enter into it.

The OP's question was: would you still play the TT?, and my answers is: Yes! not only would I, but I already do. Even though I can play perfectly good games of chess without even getting out of bed -- I still sometimes brave the cold, catch a bus across town, and pay club fees, to have real games against real people.

The advent of digital chess hasn't reduced the number of real games I play. Rather, it has allowed me to play chess at times when I wouldn't otherwise be able to (such as 3:am). I still play real chess as much as I can (which isn't enough). If there were a digital version of a game like 40k, I imagine I would play that a lot too, and it would be great being able to find opponents and have a game on a whim. But I don't think it would reduce the number of real games I play, I'd still be up for a real game whenever I can arrange one, I might even be encouraged to seek out more real games.

You say you would prefer the real life experience. Let me ask you, would you like to drive nearly 2 hours away to the GW and then take the time set up and carefully bring out your models and then you see on the other side of the table, 6 to 9 wave serpents or night scythes or riptides or even 3 imperial knights or 5 daemon prince, or what ever shenanigans you know that you will get tabled when even when he sets up one unit and deepstrike the remaining 6 drop pods turn 2. Oh that was a fun hour or 30 minutes. Now the 2 hours to drive back. You might be lucky and the nearest GW or Local Friendly Gaming Store or friends house is less than an hour or half away. It is not for me.

Now lets compare that to facing a Chess Master at that place you take a bus to who wins tournaments. You can ask him to go easy the first game, but you came there for a challenge right? If you win or lose the first game at least you have time to play several games. You can play several timed games at 5-10 minute per game in the time it takes to even set up a game of wh40k and the first or second turn.

You say you would prefer the real life experience. Let me ask you, would you like to drive nearly 2 hours away to the GW and then take the time set up and carefully bring out your models and then you see on the other side of the table, 6 to 9 wave serpents or night scythes or riptides or even 3 imperial knights or 5 daemon prince, or what ever shenanigans you know that you will get tabled when even when he sets up one unit and deepstrike the remaining 6 drop pods turn 2. Oh that was a fun hour or 30 minutes. Now the 2 hours to drive back. You might be lucky and the nearest GW or Local Friendly Gaming Store or friends house is less than an hour or half away. It is not for me.

I get your point of travelling, I too live about the same distance to my local GW but luckily I know people nearby who play and there is a club only 20 minutes from me. In your situation a computer game would be great.

 Filch wrote:
You say you would prefer the real life experience. Let me ask you, would you like to drive nearly 2 hours away to the GW and then take the time set up and carefully bring out your models and then you see on the other side of the table, 6 to 9 wave serpents or night scythes or riptides or even 3 imperial knights or 5 daemon prince, or what ever shenanigans you know that you will get tabled when even when he sets up one unit and deepstrike the remaining 6 drop pods turn 2. Oh that was a fun hour or 30 minutes. Now the 2 hours to drive back. You might be lucky and the nearest GW or Local Friendly Gaming Store or friends house is less than an hour or half away. It is not for me.

Now lets compare that to facing a Chess Master at that place you take a bus to who wins tournaments. You can ask him to go easy the first game, but you came there for a challenge right? If you win or lose the first game at least you have time to play several games. You can play several timed games at 5-10 minute per game in the time it takes to even set up a game of wh40k and the first or second turn.

Well it sounds like you just don't want to play 40k full stop. But I don't see what else you are getting at with this? 40k doesn't take that much longer to set up than other games. I have a whole bunch of games (dungeon crawlers) that take far longer. Try setting up a game of Mansions of madness (~45 mins) while everyone else in the room slowly regrets ever agreeing to play one of your games. See if that doesn't make you feel like a jack-ass.

The fact is, all games can be inconvenient to play, even chess. But if you are already with a group of people then board games tend to be much better and easier than hooking up lots of laptops or passing phones around. If you are on your own then computer games are more convenient. I think it would be quite unusual for table top games and computer games to really compete for the same time. One existing isn't likely to eat into the other time.

Of course if you don't want to play 40k at all because it sucks then fair enough. But you can't then say that it was the computer game that killed your interest.

 Filch wrote:

There are other better table top games with great minis and better written rules I have yet to play. The amount of resource to fight these legal battles could have been spent on better writers to publish better rules and balance the game better.

I guess the only question is "are you interested in any of those games?"

If so,
I highly recommend making the switch. It left 40k in favor of other games 5 years ago and I'll tell you, it's great out here. I'm playing more games , more often, and buying and painting more figures for lots less money. Most importantly, I'm loving the hobby more than ever.

If not,
Then 40k and the whole TT hobby is probably not for you. That's ok, it sounds like video games were your first love anyway and there's no shame in that.

Its game over for me. I am a bad player, I make bad lists, I made a bad army. If they release another edition soon I wont bother to read up on the changes.

Who knows, I might quit and come back a decade later surprised that wh40k survived even a year.

I do not actually having anything better to do than come here on this site and check if anyone private messaged me wanting to buy my army.

Please go back to discussing why you would never play a digital or physical version of a table top game. But I tell you, if GW made a 1:1 perfect copy of 40k and market it as a training coach to play the game, many people will learn to play and experiment with army wide options before buying and building and painting models fast. Experienced players can test out what to add to their list or create a new list and test it out easily in a computer simulation that enforces correct rules.

 Filch wrote:

You say you would prefer the real life experience. Let me ask you, would you like to drive nearly 2 hours away to the GW and then take the time set up and carefully bring out your models and then you see on the other side of the table, 6 to 9 wave serpents or night scythes or riptides or even 3 imperial knights or 5 daemon prince, or what ever shenanigans you know that you will get tabled when even when he sets up one unit and deepstrike the remaining 6 drop pods turn 2. Oh that was a fun hour or 30 minutes. Now the 2 hours to drive back. You might be lucky and the nearest GW or Local Friendly Gaming Store or friends house is less than an hour or half away. It is not for me.

I'd be smart about the type of game I'd want to play, first and foremost. Pugs (pick up games) with net lists and a random opponent? This isn't what 40k is about. Yeah, sorry bud - 40k is terrible for this. Absolutely terrible. In order to work, 40k requires (a) like minded players and (b) a co-operative approach.

But here's the thing. I know my opponents. I know them as friends. We're on the same wavelength. Were we to do 40k*, We won't do unbound, or battle forged. Heck, we probably won't even use points values or even the current edition of the rules. What we will do is create a very interesting mission story, figure out who is fighting who, and what will 'fit' the story in terms of what we think should hit the rtable top, and set up a huge board at my mates house, bring some friends over with beer/pizza, bring it to life and roll lots of dice and blow stuff up over a weekend/several nights.

Your shenanigans that you face? Yeah, we'd just share our head at it, that crap don't fly. I'm sorry that that was your experience of 40k. I really am. 40k requires a tremendous investment of effort, and the right people to get anything out of. It can be great.

*to be fair! most of what we'd play is infinity or flames of war home brews, same principles would apply to 40k games however.

I started again with this hobby to get me off the computer.
The modelling needs a reason, so I'd still play at the club.

I'm playing on Vassal right now and I want to gouge my eyes out.

There is no way I would stop playing TT.

Atleast you understand how to use vassal. I do not understand how to use it.

No. I would play it, but ultimately I will be playing TT.

For instance I play Mega Mek, which is a PC version Battletech. But I prefer TT Battletech, with the models. I like painting them and making the terrain. This is something that I enjoy and that a computer will never be able to emulate.

I would still play TT, just to put hand painted models on the board.

Considering I hardly play the TT anymore, I would get a whole lot more 40k gaming done.

 filbert wrote:
Personally, I would love to see a modern and up to date recreation of Epic, a la Final Liberation, but owning and playing it would in no way make me stop wanting to play the 'real' thing.

Ah, me too!

I'd love to be able to actually play Epic 40K, but I foolishly sold all my stuff long ago, and now?

Forget about trying to buy any of it again! Have you seen the prices stuff goes for on eBay?

Having said that, I think I tracked down a way to play Final Liberation again on my PC, so at least there's that...

I would probably buy a lot less models, but I would never abandon TT.

 Smacks wrote:
Try setting up a game of Mansions of madness (~45 mins) while everyone else in the room slowly regrets ever agreeing to play one of your games. See if that doesn't make you feel like a jack-ass.
.........
But you can't then say that it was the computer game that killed your interest.

Computer games kill my interest in living tbh. Also, whenever I want to play a FF game, I spend the night before reading the rules and setting it up.

I also love my Chess and Risk apps, but they will never compare.

This already exists in a couple places and I'd do both. Examples I can think of is Megamek for Battletech. It's an exact replica of the game.

Also, Magic has a couple computer versions that are pretty accurate.