Switch Theme:

Hunger and Slake and Lightning Claws  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in se
Glorious Lord of Chaos






Almost literally in the Phantom Zone.

Oh yes, there. Nevermind.

Still, it's a lot of Genestealers on the way.

Imagine that you’re sitting down to dinner with your family, and while everyone else gets a serving of the meal, you don’t get any. So you say “I should get my fair share.” And as a direct response to this, your dad corrects you, saying, “everyone should get their fair share.” Now, that’s a wonderful sentiment — indeed, everyone should, and that was kinda your point in the first place: that you should be a part of everyone, and you should get your fair share also. However, dad’s smart-!@# comment just dismissed you and didn’t solve the problem that you still haven’t gotten any!

The problem is that the statement “I should get my fair share” had an implicit “too” at the end: “I should get my fair share, too, just like everyone else.” But your dad’s response treated your statement as though you meant “only I should get my fair share”, which clearly was not your intention. As a result, his statement that “everyone should get their fair share,” while true, only served to ignore the problem you were trying to point out.

That is why we need feminism, and why I am not simply egalitarian. 
   
Made in gb
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Glasgow, Scotland

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
 Deadshot wrote:
I went on to state how they have momentum and surprise.

Yeah, so? If there were people down the cliff and people up the cliff? Are you just being obtuse for trying to be obtuse, Being unable to climb a ladder is quite a big drawback for using such a weapon.


Terminators cannot climb ladders anyway! They weigh like a good few tonnes! Plus, they can teleport! When in god's name has a Terminator ever needed a ladder? Terminators are not slow. Try running away from a monster like that, powered by TDA's servos and marine muscle, coming at you full pelt, with a stride length near the length of your own legs? I guess you can make a quick turn...and get squished by his neighbouring Terminator, or get shot by Stormbolter, or somehow make it out of Lightning Claw reach...


 Deadshot wrote:
Except that Plasma Reactors are move destructive than any battlefield weapon?

This is, again, stupid. You cannot rate things simply on a “more destructive/less destructive” scale, and then match them against a “more protective/less protective” scale. Some armor can protect you extremely well against some stuff and not at all against other stuff. Hence my example of an outfit that protects very well against something that is not a weapon, and not at all against something that is a weapon. Trust me, standing too close to lava will kill you if you are wearing a bulletproof vest rather than a lava suit. And, similarly, the lava suit will not protect you against bullets.


A Terminator suit will protect against both...y'know why? Because a star's gravity, even a miniature star, not to mention the swirling plasma, would rip anything less apart, not to mention disintegrate you at temperatures billions of degrees higher than anything found on the battlefield. It is covered with layers upon layers of a fictional supermetal that is practically indestructible (the Gates of the Imperial Palace were made out of Adamantium and survived months of protracted bombardment in the Heresy), is shown to becapable with withstanding any weapon thrown at it, in the game or in the fluff? And you are trying to tell me its no good for stopping bullets?
Furthermore, tell me how exactly to rank a bunch of fictional armours of fictional material vs fictional plasma weapons and laser cannons, for which you know neither the power, trajectory, force of impact, adamantium's structural integrity, or anything else that would actually help calculate a finite level of what kills what? You take the most destructive thing on the list, Plasma Reactors, and ask "Does TDA survive this?" If yes, then it must be able to survive everything less destructive on the list.


 Deadshot wrote:
Did you miss the part where myself and others have said its a miniature fething star? Did you also miss the part where Terminator armour was designed to be able to survive that?

So, it can survive hot. Read just above for an example of how “survive hot” means against bullets .


Terminator Armour is not conventional protection. Did you miss the part about being able to tank things like Demolisher Cannons?

 Deadshot wrote:
Did you also miss the part where it is the singular best armour in the 40k universe?

Uh? Yeah, I missed it. I can name a bunch of better armors. Most of them are tau, but even artificer armor and a rosarius is better.


No, they really aren't. Game terms, yes, a Rosarius and Artificer Armour will provide a better survival rate than plain TDA. But that doesn't make the Armour better, it just means you have a force field. No other armour in the game provides an Invulnerable Save simply because of how physically tough it is. Trying to compare Apples with Oranges here, except that the oranges are actually Apples with grapes stuck on the side. Straight up, TDA, in game terms since you have decided to go there, provides the best possible protect without resorting to other equipment like a Rosarius. Exceptions of course being stuff like the Armour Indomitus, which technically uses a force field too.

 Deadshot wrote:
Or how about the part where its made of layers upon layers of adamantium?

Oh. It is made of layer upon layer of fictional material, so it must resist fictional orbital bombardment weapons. I would be very impressed by those layers of adamantium, if I was an overenthusiastic fanboy . Then I would certainly not consider being unable to climb a ladder to be impractical!


No, it has been shown to resist orbital bombardment. Adamantium has also been shown to be nearly indestructible, even after protracted bombardment (see Imperial Palace siege). And don't make any other tongue in cheek comment. I am not inclined to troll-bait this day. "Overenthusiastic fanboy," if you are going to pretend you have no clue what I mean.
Finally, Terminators do no climb ladders. They teleport next to you and smash your face it, shoot you from nearby, or ignore you, tanking your puny small arms fire and proceed to rip up a nearby tank with their Assassin's Creed style chainfists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Wyzilla wrote:
 Ashiraya wrote:
 Wyzilla wrote:
 Ashiraya wrote:
 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Yeah, but it will be open pretty easily by genestealers and stuff. It all boils down to how much plot armor the author is willing to give the terminators .


Really? 50 BA Terminators cleansed a huge Space Hulk of many thousands of Genestealers alone, and lived to tell the tale. This is from the fluff of the latest SH game.

Given the claustrophobic corridors that favour the Genestealers, this speaks a lot for how the power balance really looks.


I thought it was a 100 Blood Angel Terminators who got killed down to a single squad.


No, that was a separate event.

Edit: Turns out it was just above 80.

The space marine force, consisting of over eighty veterans in Terminator Armour, managed to not only cleanse the hulk of thousands of genestealers, but also recovered an ancient Blood Angels artifact in the process.


It was also a pretty darn big hulk. Compare to a Strike Cruiser:

Spoiler:


Space Hulks are typically larger then multiple space stations strapped together. Them being planetoid sized isn't that remarkable, but the norm.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ImAGeek wrote:
Terminator armour, you must remember, also comes with the massive layer of plot armour in the novels...

It's pretty damn good armour yeah, but it's not impenetrable. Genestealers open it fairly easily in some sources for example, and in others they survive a Titan stepping on them. It's as inconsistent as everything else in 40k.


Genestealer claws cut on the molecular level and make all armor irrelevant. They're capable of simply carving their way into Baneblades, armor is meaningless when fighting Genestealers. This is also why most people constantly scratch their head as to why the hell Termiantors keep getting sent against them.


You never know what you might find aboard a Space Hulk. Chances are its some generic alien monsters, or Orks, in which case, Terminators are an excellent idea as the close, cramp corridors are a boon, meaning they can't be outmaneuvered that easily, can take maximum advantage of their resilience and damage output and can basically just wreck face of anything that gets in their way. Genestealers of course cancel out the cramped corridors because they can go Xenomorph and crawl out of pipes and vents, ignore the armour and generally be anti-Terminator.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/20 19:52:44


 
   
Made in se
Glorious Lord of Chaos






Almost literally in the Phantom Zone.

Uhh... With cramped corridors and unstable floors, is it not a bad idea to send in Termies?

Imagine that you’re sitting down to dinner with your family, and while everyone else gets a serving of the meal, you don’t get any. So you say “I should get my fair share.” And as a direct response to this, your dad corrects you, saying, “everyone should get their fair share.” Now, that’s a wonderful sentiment — indeed, everyone should, and that was kinda your point in the first place: that you should be a part of everyone, and you should get your fair share also. However, dad’s smart-!@# comment just dismissed you and didn’t solve the problem that you still haven’t gotten any!

The problem is that the statement “I should get my fair share” had an implicit “too” at the end: “I should get my fair share, too, just like everyone else.” But your dad’s response treated your statement as though you meant “only I should get my fair share”, which clearly was not your intention. As a result, his statement that “everyone should get their fair share,” while true, only served to ignore the problem you were trying to point out.

That is why we need feminism, and why I am not simply egalitarian. 
   
Made in gb
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Glasgow, Scotland

 Ashiraya wrote:
Uhh... With cramped corridors and unstable floors, is it not a bad idea to send in Termies?


Unstable floors, yes, but if they are unstable then Power Armour is just as at risk, so might as well tool up. Plus, with how dangerous a Space Hulk can be, you'll want your best veterans in there.

Cramped corridors are perfect for a Terminator. Your main weakness, mobility, is negated because the enemy can basically only come from 2 or three directions, mostly directly in front of you. Which is perfect for laying down stormbolter, assault cannon or heavy flamer fire and melee, which is where Terminators want to be. Your opponent will unlikely pulling heavy weaponry so in most cases its small arms you'll be fighting. Pipes or sharp bits sticking put might actually damage Power Armour, but TDA just ploughs through. And if all goes to hell, charge straight forward, because apart from Genestealers, anything with a 2 tonne Terminator barreling down a narrow corridor straight at you, with no where to run because you have 10 mates behind you, is going to die. Not because the Terminator crushes it, but because it gaks its bowels out, THEN gets crushed.

I'm celebrating 8 years on Dakka Dakka!
I started an Instagram! Follow me at Deadshot Miniatures!
DR:90+S++G+++M+B+IPw40k08#-D+++A+++/cwd363R+++T(Ot)DM+
Check out my Deathwatch story, Aftermath in the fiction section!

Credit to Castiel for banner. Thanks Cas!
 
   
Made in se
Glorious Lord of Chaos






Almost literally in the Phantom Zone.

TDA is far heavier than PA though, which is a problem for unstable floors. If you want your best veterans, take veterans in PA/AA and equip them with flamers and meltas. Cramped corridors is a problem for Termies since it's not always something of that size can even fit...

Imagine that you’re sitting down to dinner with your family, and while everyone else gets a serving of the meal, you don’t get any. So you say “I should get my fair share.” And as a direct response to this, your dad corrects you, saying, “everyone should get their fair share.” Now, that’s a wonderful sentiment — indeed, everyone should, and that was kinda your point in the first place: that you should be a part of everyone, and you should get your fair share also. However, dad’s smart-!@# comment just dismissed you and didn’t solve the problem that you still haven’t gotten any!

The problem is that the statement “I should get my fair share” had an implicit “too” at the end: “I should get my fair share, too, just like everyone else.” But your dad’s response treated your statement as though you meant “only I should get my fair share”, which clearly was not your intention. As a result, his statement that “everyone should get their fair share,” while true, only served to ignore the problem you were trying to point out.

That is why we need feminism, and why I am not simply egalitarian. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Lost Wages, Nevada

It's all fun and games till Tyberos tries to high five one of his retinue after a particularly awesome murderfest.

Tyberos: Leading cause for bionic limb replacement in the chapter.

Pretty sure that's what happened here actually and why the Space Gorillas chapter no longer exists...

Spoiler:

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/20 22:00:55


   
Made in gb
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Glasgow, Scotland

 Ashiraya wrote:
TDA is far heavier than PA though, which is a problem for unstable floors. If you want your best veterans, take veterans in PA/AA and equip them with flamers and meltas. Cramped corridors is a problem for Termies since it's not always something of that size can even fit...


If the floor is unstable, the weightloss between PA and TDA isn't going to make a difference, considering Marines probably already weigh like 600+lbs on their own, being 7-8ft tall, made entirely of muscle and extra-dense bone with extra organs added. Then add on PA which is likely another 800lbs at the very least. So thay's alreadly a good 1400lbs, being extremely generous. They you have equipment like bolters and guns. So maybe 1500lbs? Any unstable floor will cave regardless. Besides, TDA has all the extra autosenses built in, and I'm sure they are smart enough, being 250 year vets, to not walk on unstable ground. And worse case scenario, they drop down a floor and are fine because the armour just tanks the drop for them.
If the corridor is too small for TDA, PA isn't going to make much difference. There's only like a 2 foot difference in height and less in width. Anything PA can go down comfortably, TDA can barge through. Unless the PA is crawling or crouching, but that's not exactly the position you want to be in when under attack.
Besides, TDA has a lot of things PA doesn't have capacity for, like Storm Shields, advanced autosenses and Chainfists to carve through blockages and bulkheads.

I'm celebrating 8 years on Dakka Dakka!
I started an Instagram! Follow me at Deadshot Miniatures!
DR:90+S++G+++M+B+IPw40k08#-D+++A+++/cwd363R+++T(Ot)DM+
Check out my Deathwatch story, Aftermath in the fiction section!

Credit to Castiel for banner. Thanks Cas!
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Lost Wages, Nevada

Actually the most efficient way to kill Astartes in the RPG is falling damage. As best I can tell all PA has spikes inside it or something.

   
Made in gb
Multispectral Hsien





Gosport, UK

It's just a mobile Iron Maiden, is power armour.
   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





 Deadshot wrote:
Terminators cannot climb ladders anyway! They weigh like a good few tonnes!

They can climb very well made and sturdy ladders .
 Deadshot wrote:
Plus, they can teleport!

They can be teleported. They cannot just decide to teleport in the middle of a battle, though. I never seen any explanation on that, I assume they go to a teleportation chamber before the battle and they have no teleporting device on themselves.
 Deadshot wrote:
Terminators are not slow. Try running away from a monster like that, powered by TDA's servos and marine muscle, coming at you full pelt, with a stride length near the length of your own legs? I guess you can make a quick turn...and get squished by his neighbouring Terminator, or get shot by Stormbolter, or somehow make it out of Lightning Claw reach...

And that, people, is why there was a rule specifically saying terminators cannot do sweeping advances. But hey, never mind! They still are super fast and will totally sweeping advance you! Because awesome!
 Deadshot wrote:
A Terminator suit will protect against both...y'know why? Because a star's gravity, even a miniature star, not to mention the swirling plasma, would rip anything less apart, not to mention disintegrate you at temperatures billions of degrees higher than anything found on the battlefield.

Physics. You. The 40k authors. Lol. I need an English translation for kikitoudur.
 Deadshot wrote:
It is covered with layers upon layers of a fictional supermetal that is practically indestructible

Tons of stuff is made of adamantium, and still pretty destructible. For instance, TDA.
 Deadshot wrote:
You take the most destructive thing on the list, Plasma Reactors, and ask "Does TDA survive this?"If yes, then it must be able to survive everything less destructive on the list.

I explained why this was stupid, but you obviously did not care.
 Deadshot wrote:
Terminator Armour is not conventional protection. Did you miss the part about being able to tank things like Demolisher Cannons?

Yeah, magic! Plot armor! Let us all fall in haze at how magical TDA is! There is no example of TDA ever failing to protect the wearer, the fluff is entirely consistent in presenting TDA as able to survive exterminatus!
 Deadshot wrote:
But that doesn't make the Armour better, it just means you have a force field.

An armor with a force field is better than an armor without a force field .
 Deadshot wrote:
No other armour in the game provides an Invulnerable Save simply because of how physically tough it is.

The armor of Saint Katherine does. And certainly tons of other, but we Sisters do not get much wargear.
 Deadshot wrote:
Straight up, TDA, in game terms since you have decided to go there, provides the best possible protect without resorting to other equipment like a Rosarius.

Obviously you have not heard of centurions, dreadknights, and riptides.
 Deadshot wrote:
Finally, Terminators do no climb ladders. They teleport next to you and smash your face it, shoot you from nearby, or ignore you, tanking your puny small arms fire and proceed to rip up a nearby tank with their Assassin's Creed style chainfists.

Or they teleport to the wrong place and die. Or they teleport at the right place, but before they can act they die when you shoot them up with tons of melta and exorcist missile. I should know, last game I played against a all-terminator army ended up with me loosing a total of 3 HP in rhinos and no Sisters, while I killed all the terminators.
Granted, I was lucky when my 4 flamers killed 5 terminators in one shooting phase. But hey, never underestimate flamers! It was still puny Grey Knights inside those armors!
   
Made in se
Glorious Lord of Chaos






Almost literally in the Phantom Zone.

Terminators CAN teleport in DoWII, mind you.

Imagine that you’re sitting down to dinner with your family, and while everyone else gets a serving of the meal, you don’t get any. So you say “I should get my fair share.” And as a direct response to this, your dad corrects you, saying, “everyone should get their fair share.” Now, that’s a wonderful sentiment — indeed, everyone should, and that was kinda your point in the first place: that you should be a part of everyone, and you should get your fair share also. However, dad’s smart-!@# comment just dismissed you and didn’t solve the problem that you still haven’t gotten any!

The problem is that the statement “I should get my fair share” had an implicit “too” at the end: “I should get my fair share, too, just like everyone else.” But your dad’s response treated your statement as though you meant “only I should get my fair share”, which clearly was not your intention. As a result, his statement that “everyone should get their fair share,” while true, only served to ignore the problem you were trying to point out.

That is why we need feminism, and why I am not simply egalitarian. 
   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





 Deadshot wrote:
And if all goes to hell, charge straight forward, because apart from Genestealers, anything with a 2 tonne Terminator barreling down a narrow corridor straight at you, with no where to run because you have 10 mates behind you, is going to die. Not because the Terminator crushes it, but because it gaks its bowels out, THEN gets crushed.

Except if it is, for instance, an harlequin, that will laugh and turn the terminator into sausages . Or an enslaver, that will get a new pet. Or anyone with a melta gun and the skill to use it. Which, in a very narrow corridor, on a huge terminator, seems relatively easy. Or Ciaphas Cain. Okay, likely Jurgen with a melta gun, so it goes with last example. Or a Great Barking Toad. Or a Medusae. Or …


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ashiraya wrote:
Terminators CAN teleport in DoWII, mind you.

Well, Lexicanicum says this:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Teleportation#Terminators
If you have anything from the tabletop or the RPG that contradicts it, please share. Because this seems very, very much in accordance with everything I know from:
a) How teleportation behave in the game
b) What I know of Space Hulk (which never allowed the terminators any kind of teleportation, and had missions that were “Go to this room”)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/20 23:13:49


 
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





 Ashiraya wrote:
Terminators CAN teleport in DoWII, mind you.


Yeah, that's just a game mechanic, not an actual ability.

“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
 
   
Made in gb
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Glasgow, Scotland

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
 Deadshot wrote:
Terminators cannot climb ladders anyway! They weigh like a good few tonnes!

They can climb very well made and sturdy ladders .
 Deadshot wrote:
Plus, they can teleport!

They can be teleported. They cannot just decide to teleport in the middle of a battle, though. I never seen any explanation on that, I assume they go to a teleportation chamber before the battle and they have no teleporting device on themselves.
 Deadshot wrote:
Terminators are not slow. Try running away from a monster like that, powered by TDA's servos and marine muscle, coming at you full pelt, with a stride length near the length of your own legs? I guess you can make a quick turn...and get squished by his neighbouring Terminator, or get shot by Stormbolter, or somehow make it out of Lightning Claw reach...

And that, people, is why there was a rule specifically saying terminators cannot do sweeping advances. But hey, never mind! They still are super fast and will totally sweeping advance you! Because awesome!
 Deadshot wrote:
A Terminator suit will protect against both...y'know why? Because a star's gravity, even a miniature star, not to mention the swirling plasma, would rip anything less apart, not to mention disintegrate you at temperatures billions of degrees higher than anything found on the battlefield.

Physics. You. The 40k authors. Lol. I need an English translation for kikitoudur.
 Deadshot wrote:
It is covered with layers upon layers of a fictional supermetal that is practically indestructible

Tons of stuff is made of adamantium, and still pretty destructible. For instance, TDA.
 Deadshot wrote:
You take the most destructive thing on the list, Plasma Reactors, and ask "Does TDA survive this?"If yes, then it must be able to survive everything less destructive on the list.

I explained why this was stupid, but you obviously did not care.
 Deadshot wrote:
Terminator Armour is not conventional protection. Did you miss the part about being able to tank things like Demolisher Cannons?

Yeah, magic! Plot armor! Let us all fall in haze at how magical TDA is! There is no example of TDA ever failing to protect the wearer, the fluff is entirely consistent in presenting TDA as able to survive exterminatus!
 Deadshot wrote:
But that doesn't make the Armour better, it just means you have a force field.

An armor with a force field is better than an armor without a force field .
 Deadshot wrote:
No other armour in the game provides an Invulnerable Save simply because of how physically tough it is.

The armor of Saint Katherine does. And certainly tons of other, but we Sisters do not get much wargear.
 Deadshot wrote:
Straight up, TDA, in game terms since you have decided to go there, provides the best possible protect without resorting to other equipment like a Rosarius.

Obviously you have not heard of centurions, dreadknights, and riptides.
 Deadshot wrote:
Finally, Terminators do no climb ladders. They teleport next to you and smash your face it, shoot you from nearby, or ignore you, tanking your puny small arms fire and proceed to rip up a nearby tank with their Assassin's Creed style chainfists.

Or they teleport to the wrong place and die. Or they teleport at the right place, but before they can act they die when you shoot them up with tons of melta and exorcist missile. I should know, last game I played against a all-terminator army ended up with me loosing a total of 3 HP in rhinos and no Sisters, while I killed all the terminators.
Granted, I was lucky when my 4 flamers killed 5 terminators in one shooting phase. But hey, never underestimate flamers! It was still puny Grey Knights inside those armors!


1: Troll Response
2: they can be teleported back and reteleported down again. See "Titanhammer Terminator Squad." Lysander had his company teleported up, picked up a vortex grenade, teleports to a different spot.
3: True, rule exists. They are bulky and rigid, probably can't turn quickly. Fight one on one and just stay behind him. What about the other 4 guys? And how are you going to react when they appear right next to you in a flash of blinding light and crush you beneath their Thunder Hammer and grind your face with a chainfist. You don't.
4: Trolltastic response with no real meaning or information. Complete with lol.
5: Give me an accurate example when a conventional weapon has gone clean through TDA, without exploiting weak joints or eyeslits or something, just plain gone through the chest?
6: I have explained why your entire argument is stupid, and I truly do not care. You're trying to tell me that TDA is not that good orotection against guns and kinetic force and all that, when it tanks everything in the fluff? When it can survive titanic energies like that? Its not just fething heat dude, its gravity and other things AS I MENTIONED. TDA tanks gak like its funny, it has been shown time and time and time again and you just decide "Plasma Reactor can't possibly be as deadly as a pistol round hurr because miniature star =/= gun hurr so it can't survive a gun."
6: No, not plot armour. Armour. You keep trying to use luck-based game rolls to prove a point? Fine, TDA is so tough it grants a level of protection on par with low-level forcefields (Refractor Fields), on its own. And I never mentioned Exterminatus. I'm talking about tanking things like Volcano Cannons, Orbital Strikes, stuff that destroys fortresses and titans. Not stuff that atomises planets. That's a completely different kettle of fish, like trying to compare bananas and potatoes.
7: An armour with a force field is better than one without, but the one without is still better at being armour. Put them on even playing field and TDA surpasses all other armours.
8: My mistake, a unique special character from an army barely anyone plays, has a Codex too, and I'm fairly sure that character doesn't have game rules? You then try to say "others too" but fail to give examples. Give me some examples.
9: What, Centurions in their power armour with a bit of exo-skeleton, that only gives a 2+ save? Dreadknight pilots, in their TERMINATOR ARMOUR? Riptides with their forcefield? Dead on mate, you totally got me, those are totally superior to Terminator armour. The Centurion is on a par with the much lesser Artificer Armour, the Riptide has a forcefield so we can't accurately find what the armour itself provides. Dreadknight is moot.
10: Your luck based game has no effect or change on the fluff. "Deep Strike Mishap" occurs almost never in the fluff. I can think of 1 marine in the HH novel Know No Fear who got stuck in a wall. 1 of a group of 50 odds. That's it. And that was into a cramp environment, the Warp going nuts and without TDA to help protect you against the currents.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




In spite of the novels, novellas and fluff I can't see lightning claws retracting. Looking at the models, where would the blades retract to? The wine cellar?

A retractable claw would be inherently weaker and mechanically more fragile than a fixed one. In other words, it would be less good at doing what it's designed to do - slice people into bloody mush.

Even with a power fist, even assuming the the power field is off I can't imagine anyone wearing one doing fine manipulation. Have you seen the size of those fingers? They're almost as thick as a Guardsman's wrist! A power fist is essentially an oversized boxing glove with an armor piercing energy field attached. Kills stuff. Punches stuff. Crushes stuff for variety.

A lightning claw is even more clearly intended for nothing but killing. The claw is there so you can slash (I don't see them primarily as punch daggers meant for stabbing) your opponents into meaty little bits regardless of his power armor.

You want to shoot a gun, maybe key data into a fiddly Mechanicum comm terminal? Use one claw and have the other one free so you can shoot or fiddle with your Space Marine sized stubbies.

If you REALLY want to do fine manipulation take the ruddy thing off. Of course, you'd need a servitor to assist you 'cause you can't really get your gauntlet off without help.

At least Orky Power Klaws don't even to bother pretending they're anything other than a brutal, oversized engine of destruction.

My two teef.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/01/20 23:52:29


 
   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





 Deadshot wrote:
2: they can be teleported back and reteleported down again.

And risk dying/teleporting at the wrong place each time . Hence why they almost never do it. Or do they do it often and just never on the table top and on space hulk and…
 Deadshot wrote:
3: True, rule exists. They are bulky and rigid, probably can't turn quickly. Fight one on one and just stay behind him. What about the other 4 guys? And how are you going to react when they appear right next to you in a flash of blinding light and crush you beneath their Thunder Hammer and grind your face with a chainfist.

Well, you shoot them with melta and they die. Tested and approved by my very own Sisters .
 Deadshot wrote:
You're trying to tell me that TDA is not that good orotection against guns and kinetic force and all that, when it tanks everything in the fluff?

I am telling you that protecting from the inside of a plasma reactor is not more an indication that you are able to protect from weapons than a suit allowing you to survive inside a nuclear plant will protect you against a machine gun. Or a nuclear bomb, for that matter.
 Deadshot wrote:
Its not just fething heat dude, its gravity and other things AS I MENTIONED.

And that was when I wrote: “Physics. You. The 40k authors. Lol.” Look, I am writing it again! Because that makes no freaking sense! You are telling me the reactor have a bigger mass than the whole planet it is on, and you do not understand why I find it utterly idiotic .
 Deadshot wrote:
And I never mentioned Exterminatus.

Exterminatus is made by… orbital bombardment!
 Deadshot wrote:
Not stuff that atomises planets.

Exterminatus does not atomise planets . Only the Blackstone Fortresses can do that. Stuff that destroys titan destroy terminators too.
 Deadshot wrote:
Put them on even playing field and TDA surpasses all other armours.

So, “remove other armors advantages, and exclude tons of other armors (because even suggesting that TDA is better than a RipTide, lol), and ignore everything pointing in any other direction, and fanboy, and then TDA is the best thing evar!”
 Deadshot wrote:
8: My mistake, a unique special character from an army barely anyone plays, has a Codex too, and I'm fairly sure that character doesn't have game rules?

Uh what? If it did not have game rules, how could it get an invulnerable save? You are speaking nonsense!
 Deadshot wrote:
You then try to say "others too" but fail to give examples. Give me some examples.

Okay, please buy me every codex . I was able to give an example while owning only one of the smallest codex, with the least options in the entire game! What could I do while owning every codex?
 Deadshot wrote:
9: What, Centurions in their power armour with a bit of exo-skeleton, that only gives a 2+ save?

And +1 T.
 Deadshot wrote:
Dreadknight pilots, in their TERMINATOR ARMOUR?

And T6.
 Deadshot wrote:
Riptides with their forcefield?

And 2+ and T6 and way, way faster and with a possible 3++ and….

By the way, do you think terminator armor has no field? Apparently they do .
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Terminator_armour#Patterns
 Deadshot wrote:
10: Your luck based game has no effect or change on the fluff.

And the fluff is that a melta will melt a terminator, like it does on the tabletop . S8 AP1 .
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Lost Wages, Nevada

Terminators are straight up DEAD HARD, their tabletop stats and behavior in no way reflect what they are meant to represent. Yes, some of it is plot armor no doubt, but that doesn't change the fact that things like their invuln save is meant to represent how good their armor is, it's not a field save. In the RPG, it straight up says, roll it like a field save because it is that good, and with no overload because this is how we are representing how good the armor is. It's the same thing for the tabletop game, remember when they had a 2+ on 2d6 because they were THAT GOOD?

Lightning claws retracting seems goofy to me, for the same reason Wolverines claws retracting does. There's not actually room in the glove/forearm for them to do so. Does that make it weird for TDA to do other things aside from smashy/stabbykill? Sure, that's the downside. Once again, look at the RPG, they let you retract the blades and then treat the gloves as un powered powerfists and impose all kinds of penalties for doing anything aside from throwing things. Kinda like playing the piano with boxing gloves on, you can make lots of noise but Mozart, you ain't.

Terminators aren't made for speed, no sweeping advance in TT, cant run in the RPG, plus agility penalties. Kinda like playing Dark Souls, no fast roll, get your Havel on.

And that fluff about Lysander's trip back to his flagship is stupid and flies in the face of how Teleportation has worked in the 40k universe FOREVER. You go FROM the Teleportarium to the ground, or from the ground to the Teleportarium, maybe. It's like a star trek transporter, that you have to jump around and pray to first. Also why would you keep a vortex grenade on the bridge of your ship, that seems... unwise. Vortex grenades are awesome and need more love, but that whole fluff bit is just dumb.

Terminators in novels and fluffs very much get plot armor from mishaps, because its not fun to read about how the main character appeared with a steel girder in his sternum.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/21 00:26:34


   
Made in gb
Multispectral Hsien





Gosport, UK

Good point actually, if their armour is meant to protect against plasma reactors, how come Melta does so much damage to Terminators?
   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





 ImAGeek wrote:
Good point actually, if their armour is meant to protect against plasma reactors, how come Melta does so much damage to Terminators?

Because different technology with different effects? Because plasma reactor are not designed with the purpose of “kill everyone inside” in mind, while melta and even plasma pistols are designed with “blow up the target” in mind.

 
   
Made in gb
Multispectral Hsien





Gosport, UK

Yeah but if a suit of TDA can withstand the heat of a plasma reactor (which while not designed to kill everyone inside, cmon, it would), why can it not withstand a plasma gun blast (same technology, less hot) or a Melta gun (still effectively just heat, not sure if it's hotter or colder than a plasma reactor but I imagine colder).
   
Made in gb
Hallowed Canoness





Between

CaptainStabby wrote:
Terminators are straight up DEAD HARD, their tabletop stats and behavior in no way reflect what they are meant to represent. Yes, some of it is plot armor no doubt, but that doesn't change the fact that things like their invuln save is meant to represent how good their armor is, it's not a field save. In the RPG, it straight up says, roll it like a field save because it is that good, and with no overload because this is how we are representing how good the armor is. It's the same thing for the tabletop game, remember when they had a 2+ on 2d6 because they were THAT GOOD?


It was 3+ on 2d6, actually. Then when they switched to the AP system, it became 2+. Then when it kept getting murdered and nobody bought them, they added the 5++ to try and 'rebalance' the game so that Terminators were worth taking.

Lightning claws retracting seems goofy to me, for the same reason Wolverines claws retracting does. There's not actually room in the glove/forearm for them to do so. Does that make it weird for TDA to do other things aside from smashy/stabbykill? Sure, that's the downside. Once again, look at the RPG, they let you retract the blades and then treat the gloves as un powered powerfists and impose all kinds of penalties for doing anything aside from throwing things. Kinda like playing the piano with boxing gloves on, you can make lots of noise but Mozart, you ain't.

Terminators aren't made for speed, no sweeping advance in TT, cant run in the RPG, plus agility penalties. Kinda like playing Dark Souls, no fast roll, get your Havel on.

And that fluff about Lysander's trip back to his flagship is stupid and flies in the face of how Teleportation has worked in the 40k universe FOREVER. You go FROM the Teleportarium to the ground, or from the ground to the Teleportarium, maybe. It's like a star trek transporter, that you have to jump around and pray to first. Also why would you keep a vortex grenade on the bridge of your ship, that seems... unwise. Vortex grenades are awesome and need more love, but that whole fluff bit is just dumb.

Terminators in novels and fluffs very much get plot armor from mishaps, because its not fun to read about how the main character appeared with a steel girder in his sternum.



The 40k teleporters have also always involved a short jaunt through the warp itself, which is why until the GK book, you needed Terminator Armour to do it. Because short of surviving inside an active plasma reactor, there is no environment more hostile than The Warp.



"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Lost Wages, Nevada

Because even if you are immune to radiation, if I drop a nuclear warhead on you, you're still going to get splattered. There is more to a weaponized version of something than just the material it fires.

Even power armor is environmentally sealed and would provide at least some protection to a plasma reactor etc, but ambient (hugely high levels yes) radiation is vastly different than applying the source of that radiation to your face. Even in the hostile environments that the heavy armor that TDA was based off of, noone was juggling plasma balls.

Right, 3+ on 2d6, my bad I havent looked at my 2E stuff in forever. That's still insanely good, and my point there stands.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/01/21 00:52:19


   
Made in gb
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Glasgow, Scotland

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
 Deadshot wrote:
2: they can be teleported back and reteleported down again.

And risk dying/teleporting at the wrong place each time . Hence why they almost never do it. Or do they do it often and just never on the table top and on space hulk and…
 Deadshot wrote:
3: True, rule exists. They are bulky and rigid, probably can't turn quickly. Fight one on one and just stay behind him. What about the other 4 guys? And how are you going to react when they appear right next to you in a flash of blinding light and crush you beneath their Thunder Hammer and grind your face with a chainfist.

Well, you shoot them with melta and they die. Tested and approved by my very own Sisters .
 Deadshot wrote:
You're trying to tell me that TDA is not that good orotection against guns and kinetic force and all that, when it tanks everything in the fluff?

I am telling you that protecting from the inside of a plasma reactor is not more an indication that you are able to protect from weapons than a suit allowing you to survive inside a nuclear plant will protect you against a machine gun. Or a nuclear bomb, for that matter.
 Deadshot wrote:
Its not just fething heat dude, its gravity and other things AS I MENTIONED.

And that was when I wrote: “Physics. You. The 40k authors. Lol.” Look, I am writing it again! Because that makes no freaking sense! You are telling me the reactor have a bigger mass than the whole planet it is on, and you do not understand why I find it utterly idiotic .
 Deadshot wrote:
And I never mentioned Exterminatus.

Exterminatus is made by… orbital bombardment!
 Deadshot wrote:
Not stuff that atomises planets.

Exterminatus does not atomise planets . Only the Blackstone Fortresses can do that. Stuff that destroys titan destroy terminators too.
 Deadshot wrote:
Put them on even playing field and TDA surpasses all other armours.

So, “remove other armors advantages, and exclude tons of other armors (because even suggesting that TDA is better than a RipTide, lol), and ignore everything pointing in any other direction, and fanboy, and then TDA is the best thing evar!”
 Deadshot wrote:
8: My mistake, a unique special character from an army barely anyone plays, has a Codex too, and I'm fairly sure that character doesn't have game rules?

Uh what? If it did not have game rules, how could it get an invulnerable save? You are speaking nonsense!
 Deadshot wrote:
You then try to say "others too" but fail to give examples. Give me some examples.

Okay, please buy me every codex . I was able to give an example while owning only one of the smallest codex, with the least options in the entire game! What could I do while owning every codex?
 Deadshot wrote:
9: What, Centurions in their power armour with a bit of exo-skeleton, that only gives a 2+ save?

And +1 T.
 Deadshot wrote:
Dreadknight pilots, in their TERMINATOR ARMOUR?

And T6.
 Deadshot wrote:
Riptides with their forcefield?

And 2+ and T6 and way, way faster and with a possible 3++ and….

By the way, do you think terminator armor has no field? Apparently they do .
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Terminator_armour#Patterns
 Deadshot wrote:
10: Your luck based game has no effect or change on the fluff.

And the fluff is that a melta will melt a terminator, like it does on the tabletop . S8 AP1 .


I'm only going to respond to the really dumbass ones now, and the rest tomorrow.
Firstly, there is a feth ton of difference between Exterminatus and standard Orbital bombardment, just as the difference between precision airstrike and megaton nuclear warheard. The payload is vastly different. Orb Bomb delivers a precision lance strike to a small area. Exterminatus delivers cyclonic warheads designed to turn a planet to ash. The only similarity to that both are fired from an orbitng ship.
On forcefields; its obvioud you have never done a science experiment in your life. In order to fairly compare things you need a fair test, meaning only one aspect of the experiment changes, the armour being tested. If you add a force field to one you are now changing 2 things. Yes, TDA is better than Riptide armour, purely in terms of being armour. It provides better protection, using only physical armour. Yeah, a Riptide adds a force field. Ok, now I'll just add a storm shield to my Terminator, now what? I have a force field and mine's better, so is suddenly Terminator better than Riptides? The point I'm making is that all the others your are citing need external help to beat or equal TDA, while TDA needs no extra add-ons to beat most armours and some forcefields. So its a superior armour system.
On Centurions, Riptides and Dreadknights. The upgrade toughness comes from the fact that majority of limbs are not biological. Nothing to do with the armour quality.
The game rules are used to show relative strength of armour, where A is stronger than B because the save is better -.- They don't literally have an invulnerable save -.- The game rules are an abstraction to show the armour is so tough, it can't be contained by the normal rules for armour and must then pass into the rules to represent forcefields.
And if you are unable to do basic research on a topic,n, just citing games you've played as reference points, please stop trying to argue. You claim you can't afford the Codexes and play a niche army with little codex content then try to argue points. Unlike you, I have read the Codexes. All the 5th Ed at least, skimmed some 6th and 7th. No other general armour in the game gives an invulnerable save based off the armour's resilience alone, they all need forcefields or special rules to match it.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Lost Wages, Nevada

 Furyou Miko wrote:



The 40k teleporters have also always involved a short jaunt through the warp itself, which is why until the GK book, you needed Terminator Armour to do it. Because short of surviving inside an active plasma reactor, there is no environment more hostile than The Warp.


Right, and the start point going TO the target was always a Teleportarium, and when going back to your ship via teleportation, the return point was the Teleportarium, not just "oh lets stop off at my quarters and let me change my underwear real quick and then head back to battle." Terminators can't initiate a teleport on their own they have to be sent somewhere, and its hard to aim, thus teleport beacons and homers.

   
Made in de
Lesser Daemon of Chaos





Deadshot wrote:It is covered with layers upon layers of a fictional supermetal that is practically indestructible (the Gates of the Imperial Palace were made out of Adamantium and survived months of protracted bombardment in the Heresy), is shown to becapable with withstanding any weapon thrown at it, in the game or in the fluff? And you are trying to tell me its no good for stopping bullets?

Imperial Palace Gate was made out of adamantium... so? Tanks are made of steel. So is my garage door, yet it does not have the same strength as MBT frontarmor. Just a material alone does not make something strong.
The only point several people try to reveal to you that Terminator Armour is not the glorious masterpiece to rule them all. It has it's limits where you can use it. Every kind of armstype has restrictions. Light infantry do not cope well with charging an enemy in fortified positions. Heavy Infantry is bad at hiding and bad in extremely confined spaces and has problems with obstacles like walls/mountains. Super Heavy Tanks can't give chase to scout armor, and so on. That's why you need all of them to achieve goals. No need to get all agitated about it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/21 01:09:41


 
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





 ImAGeek wrote:
Good point actually, if their armour is meant to protect against plasma reactors, how come Melta does so much damage to Terminators?


Meltaguns are pure fusion energy and are much, much, much more potent then plasma weapons. Probably has something to do with energy density and mass as well, with melta weapons having both.

It's the difference between bathing in the corona of a star, and being shoved into the very core of it. Imperial Plasma Weapons actually are more or less miniature solar flares, while meltaguns are pure fusion energy, similar to the absurd temperatures of a star's core.

“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
 
   
Made in gb
Multispectral Hsien





Gosport, UK

Ah okay. I wasn't sure how Melta guns worked, I just assumed it just like super heated the air or something, and I assumed that would be colder than plasma weapons.
   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





 Deadshot wrote:
Exterminatus delivers cyclonic warheads designed to turn a planet to ash.

That is only one of the many possible way to commit exterminatus .
 Deadshot wrote:
On forcefields; its obvioud you have never done a science experiment in your life.

Says the guy that believe a plasma reactor has the mass of a small star .
 Deadshot wrote:
In order to fairly compare things you need a fair test, meaning only one aspect of the experiment changes, the armour being tested. If you add a force field to one you are now changing 2 things.

The forcefield is part of the armor. I can do the same, if you want: let us compare armor, but without adamantium. Because reasons. So, with a TDA, you are standing naked, while with a RipTide, you are still in on of the very best armor ever. If you add adamantium, you are changing two things, whatever that means!
 Deadshot wrote:
It provides better protection, using only physical armour.

Well, except it uses a field too!
 Deadshot wrote:
I have a force field and mine's better, so is suddenly Terminator better than Riptides?

T6 for someone that is T3 out of the armor versus T4 for someone who is T4 out of armor. Both have 3++. The TDA does not give any extra HP. The RipTide gives between +5 and +3 HP. Uh, the RipTide is clearly better.
 Deadshot wrote:
The point I'm making is that all the others your are citing need external help to beat or equal TDA

The Armor of Saint Katherine needs no external help to give 2+ 4++. And you can fly while wearing it, and go at I7, and it does not in any way restrict your movement.
 Deadshot wrote:
On Centurions, Riptides and Dreadknights. The upgrade toughness comes from the fact that majority of limbs are not biological. Nothing to do with the armour quality.

If it protects you better, it is better armor.
 Deadshot wrote:
Unlike you, I have read the Codexes.

Obviously none of the 3 that included the Armor of Saint Katherine. How many other examples are you conveniently ignoring ?
   
Made in gb
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Glasgow, Scotland

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
 Deadshot wrote:
Exterminatus delivers cyclonic warheads designed to turn a planet to ash.

That is only one of the many possible way to commit exterminatus .
 Deadshot wrote:
On forcefields; its obvioud you have never done a science experiment in your life.

Says the guy that believe a plasma reactor has the mass of a small star .
 Deadshot wrote:
In order to fairly compare things you need a fair test, meaning only one aspect of the experiment changes, the armour being tested. If you add a force field to one you are now changing 2 things.

The forcefield is part of the armor. I can do the same, if you want: let us compare armor, but without adamantium. Because reasons. So, with a TDA, you are standing naked, while with a RipTide, you are still in on of the very best armor ever. If you add adamantium, you are changing two things, whatever that means!
 Deadshot wrote:
It provides better protection, using only physical armour.

Well, except it uses a field too!
 Deadshot wrote:
I have a force field and mine's better, so is suddenly Terminator better than Riptides?

T6 for someone that is T3 out of the armor versus T4 for someone who is T4 out of armor. Both have 3++. The TDA does not give any extra HP. The RipTide gives between +5 and +3 HP. Uh, the RipTide is clearly better.
 Deadshot wrote:
The point I'm making is that all the others your are citing need external help to beat or equal TDA

The Armor of Saint Katherine needs no external help to give 2+ 4++. And you can fly while wearing it, and go at I7, and it does not in any way restrict your movement.
 Deadshot wrote:
On Centurions, Riptides and Dreadknights. The upgrade toughness comes from the fact that majority of limbs are not biological. Nothing to do with the armour quality.

If it protects you better, it is better armor.
 Deadshot wrote:
Unlike you, I have read the Codexes.

Obviously none of the 3 that included the Armor of Saint Katherine. How many other examples are you conveniently ignoring ?


Its the most common way. Not the most destructive, because that is Virus Bombing but that's a big no no in most cases.
A plasma reactor contains a small star? It uses hydrogen fusion reaction, ie, stars, which creates plasma, which are the solar arcs of the miniature star. So it does have the mass of a small star.
Forcefields are not part of the armour. They are external forces because they can be removed. Riptides need to have the forcefield added to them in order to have a force field, otherwise they do not have a force field. Simple, right? Imagine it like this. I'm trying to cut through an apple and an orange with a plastic knife. The orange is harder to cut until you wrap a leather cloth around the apple, right? The apples is a Riptide suit, orange is the TDA and leather is the Riptides forcefield.
Speaking of apples and oranges, you are comparing those. You are removing something fundamental to the construction of TDA and something not fundamental to the construction of Riptide. Adamantium is required for TDA to be built, but a Riptide doesn't require a force field.
Debatable whether it uses force fields or not. Some things like that Lexicanum snippet you put forth suggest it does, but other things like Codex entries completely omit any mention of force field. Thay snippet can also be interpreted to mean either. And because in the past, the consensus has been "No field" I'm going with that. Because it didn't have a field back in 1st and 2nd Ed, just better than all other armours.
Toughness only takes into account the model's biological resistance. Blast the leg off a Riptide, the pilot is fine. Blast a leg off a Terminator, he loses his. Take the foot off a centurion suit, the pilot still has his. Its not even close to the same. The upgraded T of those other machines is there to show how most of the model is mechanical robot, not pilot.
Except it doesn't protect you better? You lose mechanical limbs and shoot through the chest of a riptide with equal ease or difficulty, but the metal is still not as protective as that of TDA.
One-off special snowflake armour aside, I'm talking general armour you can give to armies, not a character. If you want to take that into account, then I'll through out Armour Indomitus, which is pure adamantium and gives a 2+ armour and potential 2+ invulnerable save, while also aiding movement via Relentless allowing you to shoot your missile launcher on the go.
Which ones? Name them. I'll give you Sisters, because I don't own an ipad and they are barely an army at this point thanks to GW. Which others?
   
Made in us
Long-Range Land Speeder Pilot






Soooooo..... yeah. Lightning Claws and whatnot.......yup.

"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it? The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The Wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always!" —Jago Sevatarion

DR:80SGMB--I--Pw40k01#-D++++A+/fWD-R++T(T)DM+
 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K Background
Go to: