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 Haight wrote:
What i don't understand is if after a reasonable time frame (if eta is 10-12 weeks, then 37 is no long reasonable), i requested a refund several times, and no response, and no communication, why have the authorities not been involved ?

Good synopsis of Fraud: http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=785 (Full disclosure, the word "intentional" opens up some interesting debate, however even if the didn't originally "intend" to defraud, i think we go back to willful and intentional with the radio silence and the unreasonably long period of time, and most importantly, the ignoring of demands for refunds. That last one in particular think renders any argument of "there's no intent to deprive, so no fraud" moot immediately).

Good synopsis of petty larceny (which most mats would fall under) : http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=1526


Because i'll be honest. At week 20 i would have had enough of zero communication, and would have started demanding a refund, with a follow up a week later. At week 22 I would have had a lawyer friend write a certified letter. At week 24 the police would be involved, and i would be resigned to make myself as much of a nuisance as humanly possible. Twice the established lead time with absolutely no communication is being more than understanding in my book.


Also the whole "caveat emptor laissez faire" argument is complete horsegak. It's understandable if it takes time. A lot of time. Stop advertising it takes less, and communicate with your customer. It is not reasonable to take someone's money, go thrice the lead time, have complete radio silence, and then get all fething asshurt when the consumer thinks that something is rotten.

Haight I am no legal expert but am from the US and live in Canada. My experience is that business disputes are handled in court not by local police. The fact that in my case it crosses international borders even more so. Court fees and other exppenditures are not even worth risking in my opinion at the price point I paid. Now a class action or group effort is potentially another story but in my estimation most people are just hoping to get their mat at James mercy and wouldnt want to rock the boat.

PalmerC wrote:

 Haight wrote:
What i don't understand is if after a reasonable time frame (if eta is 10-12 weeks, then 37 is no long reasonable), i requested a refund several times, and no response, and no communication, why have the authorities not been involved ?

Good synopsis of Fraud: http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=785 (Full disclosure, the word "intentional" opens up some interesting debate, however even if the didn't originally "intend" to defraud, i think we go back to willful and intentional with the radio silence and the unreasonably long period of time, and most importantly, the ignoring of demands for refunds. That last one in particular think renders any argument of "there's no intent to deprive, so no fraud" moot immediately).

Good synopsis of petty larceny (which most mats would fall under) : http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=1526


Because i'll be honest. At week 20 i would have had enough of zero communication, and would have started demanding a refund, with a follow up a week later. At week 22 I would have had a lawyer friend write a certified letter. At week 24 the police would be involved, and i would be resigned to make myself as much of a nuisance as humanly possible. Twice the established lead time with absolutely no communication is being more than understanding in my book.


Also the whole "caveat emptor laissez faire" argument is complete horsegak. It's understandable if it takes time. A lot of time. Stop advertising it takes less, and communicate with your customer. It is not reasonable to take someone's money, go thrice the lead time, have complete radio silence, and then get all fething asshurt when the consumer thinks that something is rotten.

Haight I am no legal expert but am from the US and live in Canada. My experience is that business disputes are handled in court not by local police. The fact that in my case it crosses international borders even more so. Court fees and other exppenditures are not even worth risking in my opinion at the price point I paid. Now a class action or group effort is potentially another story but in my estimation most people are just hoping to get their mat at James mercy and wouldnt want to rock the boat.

There are absolutely places where commerce crosses into criminality.


You are correct that the justice system is bicameral, there is civil and criminal. However there are places where the two touch. For a manically out-of-scope example, think Enron and / or Bernie Madhoff. People went to jail in those scenarios for what the company did.

So if you want redress for your 40-100 bucks, yes the cops are not going to get it. However if he's out there taking 40-100 bucks from you, and fifty other people, the authorities frown on that.


Also, laws can have civil and criminal implications.



Also, if the point is to get Communication / product / refund - a little visit by the local police department responding to a claim of fraud and / or petty larceny might be just the trick. They will probably only have a very uncomfortable chat with him the first visit, but that might be enough to spur action. Also, just because you're a business (corp, LLC), this does not indemnify you from prosecution if your business breaks a law with criminal implications. Larceny and Fraud certainly both do, with fraud typically being a felony, and larceny being a misdemeanor or felony based on the amount in question (usually to move to larceny or beyond, the threshold is 500, but it can differ place to place).



A class action isn't an option, as the combined worth of all the mats (and therefore the damages, actual and punitive) wouldn't be enough to get a lawyer to sit in a chair, much less try the case. It's not pro-bono worthy because there's no pro publica benefit due to scope or destitution.

Small claims is an option, but the filing fee, your time, and gas alone probably make it not worth it unless you really just want to stick it to him. Also, you can't lump small claims claims together from various parties in most jurisdictions is my understanding, though i may be wrong on this (while i have several law degrees, and studied some aspects of civil, civil litigation was not my focus full disclosure, and no, i am not a lawyer as in admitted to the bar, also full disclosure).

Redress is going to have only a few options: you spur company to act - either refund, or product delivery. You take them to small claims and get recompense, maybe also ask that part of judgement be that respondent pays for the court filing fee. Those are your options if recompense and redress is the desired outcome. You being from canada changes the equation by the way, not sure 100% off the top of my head how that affects things.

I am thinking of starting a "It's 10 PM do you know where your Zuzzy Mat's are" effort where people can put down the date they ordered and see others order dates and get a sense of how many people are waiting. What do people think? I think it might be useful info for people currently waiting and new buyers. Not sure if I should do this directly on their forum (everything I have done so far I included on their forum) or on the facebook community site.

There are absolutely places where commerce crosses into criminality.


You are correct that the justice system is bicameral, there is civil and criminal. However there are places where the two touch. For a manically out-of-scope example, think Enron and / or Bernie Madhoff. People went to jail in those scenarios for what the company did.

So if you want redress for your 40-100 bucks, yes the cops are not going to get it. However if he's out there taking 40-100 bucks from you, and fifty other people, the authorities frown on that.


Also, laws can have civil and criminal implications.



Also, if the point is to get Communication / product / refund - a little visit by the local police department responding to a claim of fraud and / or petty larceny might be just the trick. They will probably only have a very uncomfortable chat with him the first visit, but that might be enough to spur action. Also, just because you're a business (corp, LLC), this does not indemnify you from prosecution if your business breaks a law with criminal implications. Larceny and Fraud certainly both do, with fraud typically being a felony, and larceny being a misdemeanor or felony based on the amount in question (usually to move to larceny or beyond, the threshold is 500, but it can differ place to place).

It did cross my mind to have a word with the local police just to make them aware but that can go a lot of different ways depending on who you speak to I think but it honestly couldnt hurt most likely.

PalmerC wrote:
I am thinking of starting a "It's 10 PM do you know where your Zuzzy Mat's are" effort where people can put down the date they ordered and see others order dates and get a sense of how many people are waiting. What do people think? I think it might be useful info for people currently waiting and new buyers. Not sure if I should do this directly on their forum (everything I have done I have done so far I included on their forum) or on the facebook community site.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Haight wrote:

PalmerC wrote:

 Haight wrote:
What i don't understand is if after a reasonable time frame (if eta is 10-12 weeks, then 37 is no long reasonable), i requested a refund several times, and no response, and no communication, why have the authorities not been involved ?

Good synopsis of Fraud: http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=785 (Full disclosure, the word "intentional" opens up some interesting debate, however even if the didn't originally "intend" to defraud, i think we go back to willful and intentional with the radio silence and the unreasonably long period of time, and most importantly, the ignoring of demands for refunds. That last one in particular think renders any argument of "there's no intent to deprive, so no fraud" moot immediately).

Good synopsis of petty larceny (which most mats would fall under) : http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=1526


Because i'll be honest. At week 20 i would have had enough of zero communication, and would have started demanding a refund, with a follow up a week later. At week 22 I would have had a lawyer friend write a certified letter. At week 24 the police would be involved, and i would be resigned to make myself as much of a nuisance as humanly possible. Twice the established lead time with absolutely no communication is being more than understanding in my book.


Also the whole "caveat emptor laissez faire" argument is complete horsegak. It's understandable if it takes time. A lot of time. Stop advertising it takes less, and communicate with your customer. It is not reasonable to take someone's money, go thrice the lead time, have complete radio silence, and then get all fething asshurt when the consumer thinks that something is rotten.

Haight I am no legal expert but am from the US and live in Canada. My experience is that business disputes are handled in court not by local police. The fact that in my case it crosses international borders even more so. Court fees and other exppenditures are not even worth risking in my opinion at the price point I paid. Now a class action or group effort is potentially another story but in my estimation most people are just hoping to get their mat at James mercy and wouldnt want to rock the boat.

There are absolutely places where commerce crosses into criminality.


You are correct that the justice system is bicameral, there is civil and criminal. However there are places where the two touch. For a manically out-of-scope example, think Enron and / or Bernie Madhoff. People went to jail in those scenarios for what the company did.

So if you want redress for your 40-100 bucks, yes the cops are not going to get it. However if he's out there taking 40-100 bucks from you, and fifty other people, the authorities frown on that.


Also, laws can have civil and criminal implications.



Also, if the point is to get Communication / product / refund - a little visit by the local police department responding to a claim of fraud and / or petty larceny might be just the trick. They will probably only have a very uncomfortable chat with him the first visit, but that might be enough to spur action. Also, just because you're a business (corp, LLC), this does not indemnify you from prosecution if your business breaks a law with criminal implications. Larceny and Fraud certainly both do, with fraud typically being a felony, and larceny being a misdemeanor or felony based on the amount in question (usually to move to larceny or beyond, the threshold is 500, but it can differ place to place).

It did cross my mind to have a word with the local police just to make them aware but that can go a lot of different ways depending on who you speak to I think but it honestly couldnt hurt most likely.

I accidentally ninja edited you btw.


It does not hurt to make the call and see what they say. I find that if you are polite, and explain a scenario with no hyperbole or exposition, and answer their questions honestly, most officers are usually very helpful.


While not a true apples to apples example, this has been used to great effect with egregious scammers on Bartertown. This isn't the 100% same, because its technically a business entity (even if a sole proprietorship, or LLC, or whatever his one man show is incorporated under), however, but i doubt it could hurt. The police are not going to say "Whoa whoa whoa, who do you think i am, HEY TOM! get a load of this guy, he wants me to go talk to a business!"

Ha Ha you never know though Haight.. I am not anti authorities by any means but calling international to a local jurisdiction about a transaction that in American dollars is about $165 they would likely consider somewhat petty. But I am not going to push the point because who knows you may be right.

PalmerC wrote:
Ha Ha you never know though Haight.. I am not anti authorities by any means but calling international to a local jurisdiction about a transaction that in American dollars is about $165 they would likely consider somewhat petty. But I am not going to push the point because who knows you may be right.

This is true ; in your situation, it sucks because to even start making international calls, the costs are going to rack up, and quickly mount to the point of "no longer worth it". And this is absolutely a "risk vs. reward" thing. I know most Canadians live within 30-50 miles of the border ... do you have a friend in NY state (or any state for that matter... I sholudn't assume the closest US state is NY) that you could visit, and would let you use his cell phone, etc ? I know its a long shot, but that would be a legit way to defer the costs. Then you could buy your bud lunch for using up his minutes.

You could see if his local PD has an 800 (toll free) number. Those usually work internationally.... i think.

Another option is to contact your police dept., explain the issue, and see if they will contact his local PD on your behalf. Two things here: 1) i'm 100% ignorant of canadian law past their international law treaties which are not applicable. 2) This wouldn't work in the states. The local PD would tell you to contact his local PD, particularly if it was across state lines. So this might be a goose chase, in all fairness. However, ruling out options hurts no one.

PalmerC wrote:

 Lockark wrote:
I did place a order with them last year, when alot of people were complaining about the delays. It was about a 2-3 mounth wait with no communication before they sent out my mat. They do get sent out, you just have a long wait before you see them show up.

From what I understand one of the things that create the huge delays is that he makes these in his garage, so he only has the room to cast so many of his molds at once, and the rubber he uses has a slow set. It's not just a man power thing, but the space it takes up to make one of these mats.


He need to be more upfront about the wait, or expand to meet market demand.


=/

I would totally order more mats from him, if I could get a realistic estimate on the time for them to be made. The product is amazing.

I am glad this worked out for you last year but many of us have been waiting in excess of 6 months and for me it will soon be 8 months. I have asked for a refund three times and have not gotten a response. If you feel comfortable doing business with a person like this thats up to you. He doesn't say on his website he is a garage operation and falsely states his delivery times.

It feels abit like you are trying to attack my personal charater with that post, and I do not appreciate it.

I was just sharing my personal experience from when I ordered a mat from him around this time last year. I was actully given a free display board mat by him for the wait I had and a hand written and signed note appologizeing for the wait. That was what happened for me.

I shared my experience because it seems to imply that the wait times have gotten much worse in a very short period of time, and is concerning.

like I said in my post. I wouldn't order from him agien, till these issues are resolved. The wildly inaccuret manufactureing times are the biggest issue hands down. But I don't think he is a crook.


edit/P.S.
I love my zuzzy mat, and rolling it out for infinitiy games. But when people ask me if they should get a zuzzy mat also, I am alot of times hesitant to advise it because of the issues with zuzzy. F.A.T. mats are now what I look to for alot of my gameing needs.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

extending to call it theft and fraud is different.

...

At best, they are woefully optimistic.

You know that people go to jail for fraud after being "woefully optimistic" all the time, right?

It feels abit like you are trying to attack my personal charater with that post, and I do not appreciate it.

I was just sharing my personal experience from when I ordered a mat from him around this time last year. I was actully given a free display board mat by him for the wait I had and a hand written and signed note appologizeing for the wait. That was what happened for me.

I shared my experience because it seems to imply that the wait times have gotten much worse in a very short period of time, and is concerning.

like I said in my post. I wouldn't order from him agien, till these issues are resolved. The wildly inaccuret manufactureing times are the biggest issue hands down. But I don't think he is a crook.


edit/P.S.
I love my zuzzy mat, and rolling it out for infinitiy games. But when people ask me if they should get a zuzzy mat also, I am alot of times hesitant to advise it because of the issues with zuzzy. F.A.T. mats are now what I look to for alot of my gameing needs.

Sorry that was not at all my intent we all have to feel comfortable with who we do business and you already have experience with Zuzzy so it's up to you what your comfort level is. Also I acknowledge that all the info i presented is up to the individual who is going to buy from Zuzzy as to whether they believe it as evidence of Zuzzy's business performance. Essentially it's your opinion as to what your going to believe. I am assuming that is the part of my post you refer to? I shared in my first post a lot of info if despite that you are comfortable its up to you and not a reflection of character. I can definitly see how you could interpret what I said differently. Cheers

Another local player besides myself also got a zuzzy mat last year, and loves it. However, we both have the same reservations that Lockark said, that the wait time (while considerable) wasn't nearly what it seems to be now. It was already unnerving enough with how long it was with no communication, although with Paypal's 180 day challenge window it'd be a lot easier to get your money back if ordering now (although less likely that you'd actually get a mat, seemingly).

Also, PalmerC just a forum etiquette note, it'd be better not to quote huge blocks of text just to add a few sentence reply (much easier to converse if you only quote something that you're directly replying to / only if it's needed).

It's a shame their service is so bad, as i really would love to buy one. They are reasonably costed for what is a durable and awesome looking gaming surface.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

PalmerC wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
Sorry to hear it mate. I'd try them again just on the off-chance.

Wish they could but at the same time the money is secondary to me at this point. I understand when folks feel my aggravated vibe from my posts and say just let it go but as a couple of posters indicated this is not new but it has for some gotten worse. I see my letting it go as a win for a company that has built a business model on a foundation of no customer support and not delivering on certain expectations. For now I would like to highlight this so folk can at least understand what they are getting into.

If you simply wanted to highlight the long lead times and lack of communication - that would be one thing (one thing which I don't think really needs it too much - Zuzzy is well known for it)...extending to call it theft and fraud is different.

At worst, they have misleading advertisement. At best, they are woefully optimistic.

The longer lead times aren't really indicative of anything other than longer lead times. Unless corrective action is taken to speed them up - the long lead times should only increase as more customers want the product (which based off from all other data - there are more customers in the market for the product...).

Misleading advertising is a form of fraud.

If he promises a product, and promises shipping of that product within a certain time-frame, in the USA you have the expectation that part of what you are buying is the time it takes to get you the product (this is why businesses are allowed to charge more for expedited shipping, and why often businesses will include free shipping for products that are not time-dependent).

Product delivery is considered to be a part of business, and a product ordered might be necessary for the buyers to operate their own business.

And there is a statute of limitations on this that means the OP needs to get in gear, as after a year or two (depending upon the amount) you lose the right to make a claim against them.

Failing to promptly ship, if a shipping time is listed is a form of fraud.

MB

 RiTides wrote:
Another local player besides myself also got a zuzzy mat last year, and loves it. However, we both have the same reservations that Lockark said, that the wait time (while considerable) wasn't nearly what it seems to be now. It was already unnerving enough with how long it was with no communication, although with Paypal's 180 day challenge window it'd be a lot easier to get your money back if ordering now (although less likely that you'd actually get a mat, seemingly).

Also, PalmerC just a forum etiquette note, it'd be better not to quote huge blocks of text just to add a few sentence reply (much easier to converse if you only quote something that you're directly replying to / only if it's needed).

That's how I would feel as well if that was my experience. I also still play bolt action and other games on the zuzzy mat's at my gaming club. Just because I have a problem with James Hubb's and Zuzzy Miniatures it doesnt effect my view on the quality of the product or whether I will utilize them when available. Thanks for pointing that out I changed recent posts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Something I would just like to mention is that whether it comes off this way or not I do not begrudge folks that have had good experience getting their products from Zuzzy miniatures in the past, present, or those waiting for mat's optimistically currently. I am not on a take no prisoner mission to get James Hubbs. I do have a problem as I mentioned with both Zuzzy and James Hubbs and what I believe to be the current deficiencies of his business practices.

I am also at this point not about just trying to get my money back. I do appreciate some of the advice I have been given and I may be following up on a couple of things pointed out to me recently. But the issue of my money and the issue of raising awareness and the extent of the problems to others are two different things to me and will take a different life of their own as how they get resolved in my opinion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

And there is a statute of limitations on this that means the OP needs to get in gear, as after a year or two (depending upon the amount) you lose the right to make a claim against them.

Failing to promptly ship, if a shipping time is listed is a form of fraud.

MB

Is this something done outside the courts or where do you start the process?

thanks

Since you are in Canada ask your local RCMP how you go about instituting wire fraud charges (since I assume that you conducted the business over the internet in Canada).
If you want to file suit then you should consult an attorney in Zuzzy's local area. You may be able to find someone who will work on contingent fee service or you can always add the legal costs to your suit.

Thanks but I won't be going through any attorney's lol not worth it. Perhaps I paid $189 to create the "Author James Hubbs and Zuzzy Miniatures are a scam" facebook community ...

At least file a complaint with the BBB. I know that you said that they already have an "F" rating then other people can see that they are still earning that "F".

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
At least file a complaint with the BBB. I know that you said that they already have an "F" rating then other people can see that they are still earning that "F".

Oh yes I already did that.

Just to interject ; statute of limitations in the united states depends on jurisdiction. I'm not an expert on NY legal code, but the smallest statute of limitations i've ever seen in my area is 3 years. I do believe there's more than enough time ticking away.

Again, could be different in New York.


Not saying it does, but if in NY legal code failing to ship within stated lead times is a type of fraud, that could be a felony (if not in NY state due to the amount, possibly Federally, which is a consideration too). I looked into it a little, but not having been involved in any kind of law in NY like i was in my home area, i don't feel comfortable even layman interpreting their state code.

Also echo the sentiments about a lawyer being involved = not fiscally worth it. If you have a friend that's a lawyer and will write a letter for you on your behalf, go for it. However you may have to be willing to back up that bark with some bite (meaning small claims).


I will once again reiterate my stance that a call to his local PD to stop by and have a chat with him is probably the single best chance to spur him to action. There just isn't much civil legal remedy here beyond small claims, and that gets tricky given the international situation (cost, etc.... most small claims courts are only good up to claims of 2500 ... a lot, given the cost of the Mat, but calls, travel, lodging, filing fee, copying, etc, to the states from canada can add up quickly, and even if you ask for that remediation back, there's no gauarantee you'll get it from the judge).


Really, hopefully James is reading this and just makes contact, promises delivery, and makes good on delivery. I don't think anyone really wants to see things get ugly with Zuzzy, as despite being terrible to their customers, they do make a kick ass product.

I think we're looking at another case of a garage manufacturer who's gotten in over his head. Started off with the capabillity and idea of a really cool thing he could do, had it take off, but because of the scale of operations, carries it all on his own shoulders. So if he spent all of his time working on the mats, he could start making his way through the backlog, but especially if it's something he thinks of as more of a side hobby than an actual business, all the time and work it'd take away from his life is more than he wants to give.

Also, if the money from Zuzzy as a business was not kept properly seperated from personal finances, that's another unfortunate amatuer complication.

I often wonder how much money this guy has lost due to his poor business practices?

 Haight wrote:


Really, hopefully James is reading this and just makes contact, promises delivery, and makes good on delivery. I don't think anyone really wants to see things get ugly with Zuzzy, as despite being terrible to their customers, they do make a kick ass product.

I find that prospect highly unlikely (making contact.) Without personally knowing him I can only go with what I have seen to date. From what I have seen it's a person that makes it a point to either not be contacted (no phone number) and generally doesnt respond to emails. I am not the only one to try and reach him by facebook without response. Yet he does interact on facebook for his author sites and has activity on those with people. But no activity essentially on his Zuzzy Miniatures facebook site (to speak of) or his Zuzzy discussion forum. So what should I gather from that? Well that he really doesnt want to talk about/support Zuzzy miniatures but is interested in becoming an author. As an aside I am not aware that he is published but he refers to himself as an author. Not really sure if anyone can just be an author if they feel like it or if being published first is the relevant factor. But back to my point I dont really see any real interest from James Hubbs or anyone else at Zuzzy (the email I received in November was from someone else) to build or support the business. In general he doesnt seem like a very normal person as generic and non descriptive as that sounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Portugal Jones wrote:
I think we're looking at another case of a garage manufacturer who's gotten in over his head. Started off with the capabillity and idea of a really cool thing he could do, had it take off, but because of the scale of operations, carries it all on his own shoulders. So if he spent all of his time working on the mats, he could start making his way through the backlog, but especially if it's something he thinks of as more of a side hobby than an actual business, all the time and work it'd take away from his life is more than he wants to give.

.

This could very well be a case or a component of it. What's unfortunate is he doesnt clue his customers into any of the issues or problems he has and doesnt change the delivery time info etc to inform us. Because of this the reasons behind what he does (or really doesnt do) become less important to me than the fact that he is just doing horrible business that is more of a scam than a reputable operation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Chute82 wrote:
I often wonder how much money this guy has lost due to his poor business practices?

Hard to say but I do know he has $189 CAN of mine without doing anything, enough of those transactions and it could sound like a sweet deal to some.

My mat took 5 months to arrive same exact issues with communication.

they gave me a BONUS for the long wait ...

and 11x14 inch piece of a mat... ?? not sure what use that would have to anyone.

by that point i had already discovered FAT mats so its just sitting around now.

 tenebre wrote:
My mat took 5 months to arrive same exact issues with communication.

they gave me a BONUS for the long wait ...

and 11x14 inch piece of a mat... ?? not sure what use that would have to anyone.

by that point i had already discovered FAT mats so its just sitting around now.

That's what i got also. It's meant as a roll up display board.

Because of their terrible wait times no sane tournament player would bother trying to order one normally.

 tenebre wrote:
My mat took 5 months to arrive same exact issues with communication.

they gave me a BONUS for the long wait ...

and 11x14 inch piece of a mat... ?? not sure what use that would have to anyone.

by that point i had already discovered FAT mats so its just sitting around now.

Those Fat mats look good I have seen a number of similar products. I wasn't really interested in the mouse style matt initially but given the whole Zuzzy experience I will likely in the future just buy this kind of matt.

Is there much of a wait on the fat mats? Dealing with zuzzy makes you a little gun shy

 Chute82 wrote:
Is there much of a wait on the fat mats? Dealing with zuzzy makes you a little gun shy

my FAT mat arrived 5 days after i placed the order. so pretty fast. they already have them made unless it says out of stock on the website.

 Chute82 wrote:
Is there much of a wait on the fat mats? Dealing with zuzzy makes you a little gun shy

There's a signifgant difference between an established company that is offering a printed product, and one that requires manual casting for every part of its sole product line.

 Portugal Jones wrote:

 Chute82 wrote:
Is there much of a wait on the fat mats? Dealing with zuzzy makes you a little gun shy

There's a signifgant difference between an established company that is offering a printed product, and one that requires manual casting for every part of its sole product line.

I agree with this except that Zuzzy is an established company. The information I saw showed James Hubbs in business since 2007. Whether it is 7 or 8 years you have to be established by then. But the differences are not just the type of product. It didn't take me long when looking at frontline gaming's website to see they have a phone number you can call (shocking ) and if you look at their presence on their website it is much more current and updated. No comparison really.

 Portugal Jones wrote:
Also, if the money from Zuzzy as a business was not kept properly seperated from personal finances, that's another unfortunate amatuer complication.

For those with torches and pitchforks, that's actually a great thing, because they can snitch him out to the IRS for a cut of whatever the IRS gets. He'd be looking at serious penalties for Tax evasion. Remember, that's how the Feds got Capone - on tax evasion charges.

A few years ago, I considered a Zuzzy Mat for my gaming table. I looked here and elsewhere and saw the horrible delays and lead times for people to get their stuff. So, I didn't buy anything from them. It appears as though it isn't getting any better, which is a shame. I understand from people that have them that the mats are excellent. However, their poor customer service and horrendous wait for product is a non-starter for me to ever consider them.

At least I have my Secret Weapon Miniatures Tablescapes. Can't wait to prime the darn things. It will eventually be warm here. And dry.