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The fact remains that Britain certainly did have a great desire for empire and fulfilled that desire with great success.

 Manchu wrote:
The fact remains that Britain certainly did have a great desire for empire and fulfilled that desire with great success.

Define 'desire for Empire'.

I agree that they believed their Empire was a good thing. Often quite passionately. I would agree that they took actions to continue the existence of that Empire.

I would disagree that the expansion of their Empire was in and of itself a goal.

 tau tse tung wrote:
China loaned America the money it's using today. Both economies would be ruined. America do have raw navel power but the chinese have the numbers and production facilities, I personally would think they could hold t.

I agree with this. Our economies are too intertwined to commit to war. It would be lose-lose for both of us. Unfortunately, there are probably some people in Washington who are too nationalistic,...err....I mean patriotic.......to rationalize this.

 Strombones wrote:

 tau tse tung wrote:
China loaned America the money it's using today. Both economies would be ruined. America do have raw navel power but the chinese have the numbers and production facilities, I personally would think they could hold t.

I agree with this. Our economies are too intertwined to commit to war. It would be lose-lose for both of us. Unfortunately, there are probably some people in Washington who are too nationalistic,...err....I mean patriotic.......to rationalize this.

Of the two sides, China is in the weaker position actually in the event of war. The US would only lose credibility, and much of the National debt, if they were to refuse payment of the debt. China would be left out in the cold, and without a buyer for their product.

China is very much utterly dependent on people buying their stuff. If that dries up, even just for a little bit, they will shrivel up and feel repercussions quickly. The Chinese economy is growing fast, but its also far too dependent on external trade. They would have likely irrevocable economic damage if they lost the US as a trading partner, enough to shatter their economy for decades. And their population would starve on top of it as they are so dependent on imports for food.

The US would hurt, but only for a little time. China would take decades to recover.

Well the chinese economy is actually slowing down a bit.

Yeah, but relative to other economies they're still growing at insane speeds(possibly out of control).

China also has infrastructure problems, particularly outside the cities and in agricultural areas. They'll have insanely modern facilities, but transportation networks that are straight out of the 1920s.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yeah, but relative to other economies they're still growing at insane speeds(possibly out of control).

China also has infrastructure problems, particularly outside the cities and in agricultural areas. They'll have insanely modern facilities, but transportation networks that are straight out of the 1920s.

I remember reading somewhere not too long ago that a lot of chinese factories are sitting idle and the demand for steel is going down.

Yeah, but "a lot" is of course relative. China is "only" growing by about 7% right now as opposed to 15-20% that it was in the past, but that type of growth would be insane in the US or any other European country where 2-3% is more the norm.

So yeah, China is slowing down, but slow is only relative to themselves.

Our subs positioned in the pacific routinely have ten minute drills where they practice destroying China to ashes with roughly20-30 warheads. Granted, this was twenty five years ago when I was stationed on such a sub so I don't know if they still do this, but I really don't think we have anything to worry about.

Certainly, as long as any war is fought only to keep China isolated and no invasion is undertaken.

We can easily defeat any power they try to project beyond their immediate borders and then just let them rot from the inside. Their population and economy wouldn't survive any period of isolation for long, and they'd start running out of food. And this would be especially dangerous when they have a population that has recently become addicted to imports of all kinds, plus that population would also run out of money if the economy dried up on top of it.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Our subs positioned in the pacific routinely have ten minute drills where they practice destroying China to ashes with roughly20-30 warheads. Granted, this was twenty five years ago when I was stationed on such a sub so I don't know if they still do this, but I really don't think we have anything to worry about.

I'd say that's still quite a bit to worry about.

You know, that whole Nuclear War thing is pretty...worrisome.

 tau tse tung wrote:
China loaned America the money it's using today.

Nice to know this myth exists beyond US borders as well.

 streamdragon wrote:

 tau tse tung wrote:
China loaned America the money it's using today.

Nice to know this myth exists beyond US borders as well.

Even if it was 100% true, that would mean the situation is that we have China's money and all they have is a promise to pay it back. And they're desperately in need for us to pay it back because if we don't they're in serious trouble.

Yeah that china owning the debt thing is wrong. If I am right it might be japan not china that owns our debt.

They own some of our debt though as I recall, not all of it. That would be silly.

 Grey Templar wrote:
They own some of our debt though as I recall, not all of it. That would be silly.

Don't we actually owe most of our debt to ourselves?

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yeah, but "a lot" is of course relative. China is "only" growing by about 7% right now as opposed to 15-20% that it was in the past, but that type of growth would be insane in the US or any other European country where 2-3% is more the norm.

So yeah, China is slowing down, but slow is only relative to themselves.

It's going to get even worse this year with one of their major trade partners (Europe) being hit by the disaster that is the euro. I don't really have that much faith in the chinese economy

Sining wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yeah, but "a lot" is of course relative. China is "only" growing by about 7% right now as opposed to 15-20% that it was in the past, but that type of growth would be insane in the US or any other European country where 2-3% is more the norm.

So yeah, China is slowing down, but slow is only relative to themselves.

It's going to get even worse this year with one of their major trade partners (Europe) being hit by the disaster that is the euro. I don't really have that much faith in the chinese economy

I guess I have a little more faith, but not a ton.

At best, I think China might have 20-30 years of prosperity before their bubble bursts, and its going to be messy when it does. They just don't have the strong foundational and sustainable middle class and basic economic characteristics of a successful modern economy. They're going to have major population problems in the future and that will absolutely sink them. Japan's going to have the same problem except Japan actually has a balanced Male/Female ratio.

My guess is you think the bubble will burst much sooner.

 d-usa wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
They own some of our debt though as I recall, not all of it. That would be silly.

Don't we actually owe most of our debt to ourselves?

Yes but don't let that get in the way of shouting "the end is nigh!"

For the record, despite certain claims, the concept of the 9 point line has only existed since somewhere about 1945. To say that China has claimed the region since Imperial times is somewhat tenuous at best. To say China controlled those waters is laughable.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Sining wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yeah, but "a lot" is of course relative. China is "only" growing by about 7% right now as opposed to 15-20% that it was in the past, but that type of growth would be insane in the US or any other European country where 2-3% is more the norm.

So yeah, China is slowing down, but slow is only relative to themselves.

It's going to get even worse this year with one of their major trade partners (Europe) being hit by the disaster that is the euro. I don't really have that much faith in the chinese economy

I guess I have a little more faith, but not a ton.

At best, I think China might have 20-30 years of prosperity before their bubble bursts, and its going to be messy when it does. They just don't have the strong foundational and sustainable middle class and basic economic characteristics of a successful modern economy. They're going to have major population problems in the future and that will absolutely sink them. Japan's going to have the same problem except Japan actually has a balanced Male/Female ratio.

My guess is you think the bubble will burst much sooner.

Pretty much. Just too much corruption within the system. Too many people depending on bank loans and export rebates to keep them afloat in my particular industry. But the banks are constantly tightening the amount they are willing to loan due to scandals while exports are steadily getting worse because of their own rapid increase in costs as well as worsening trade currencies. I think China will probably have some Enron like company collapse within the next few years the way things are going now because it's inevitable one of their large companies is going to be called out on their BS

chaos0xomega wrote:
For the record, despite certain claims, the concept of the 9 point line has only existed since somewhere about 1945. To say that China has claimed the region since Imperial times is somewhat tenuous at best. To say China controlled those waters is laughable.

Yeah, China has never had very many designs on foreign soil until very recently, and even less ability to act on those designs. And certainly even less desire and ability on water.

Asherian Command wrote:Yeah that china owning the debt thing is wrong. If I am right it might be japan not china that owns our debt.

China does, in fact, own the largest part of our foreign debt. Key word there is foreign. About 8% of total US debt is to China. Which is weird, because China actually owes the US money also. I'm not sure how that works out, or why it doesn't cancel. According to some estimates, China actually owes US investors more than we owe the Chinese government. The situations are obviously slightly different, since one is government to government and the other is government to private group.

d-usa wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
They own some of our debt though as I recall, not all of it. That would be silly.

Don't we actually owe most of our debt to ourselves?

Yup.

Foreign debt is definitely a slightly more concerning area of the debt because one of the main goals of debt, on the national debt level, is to ensure you maintain a pool of borrowers. Domestic borrowing is pretty stable, although borrowing from yourself is just wrong . Foreign borrowers can lose confidence more easily and thus you lose a pool of borrowing.

 Ketara wrote:
There's another article in the BBC today about the artificial islands under construction by China.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-32234448

Ponderously, China keeps rolling towards making their assertions of territory a reality. They doubtless see their expectations of the subservience of other local nations not too far behind. At some point in the next thirty to forty years, assuming current trends are maintained, America will be forced to make a decision; namely that they relinquish their dominance in that part of the world to China, or they stand up and draw a line in the sand using their fleet.

Which do you think will occur and why?

This might be slightly off of the current topic, but isn't the obvious answer to wait till a particularly nasty monsoon rolls by?

tau tse tung wrote:

I do see where you coming from, personally I don't want the status quo to change, but that's my stance. Nothing would be solved in war, I think both the White House and the great hall of the people are well aware. Ukraine and the Middle East are far bigger fish for the superpowers to fry right now.

No one really cares about Ukraine.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
In my view, the problems will arise when North Korea collapses and China is faced with a Pro America, united Korea on its doorstep. China would push for American withdrawal if that happened, but Washington might be tempted at leaving troops on China's doorstep.

That's not going to happen, South Korea would never agree to reunite with North Korea.

You be surprise that South Korea would absorb North Korea. China though will prop up the North Korean government just to keep the North Korean masses out of China

I think that if it came to N.Korea collapsing, S.Korea would probably absorb N.Korea but China would rather take over N.Korea than let that happen

Sining wrote:
I think that if it came to N.Korea collapsing, S.Korea would probably absorb N.Korea but China would rather take over N.Korea than let that happen

I think its the opposite.

China wants NK as a buffer state. They do NOT want to deal with the mess themselves. They'll let NK get reabsorbed before they take control of that territory and its clusterfeth of problems.

North Korea is a lot like Interwar Italy. They have a bigger, much more capable neighbor (China) who desperately wants a regional ally too feel less alone, and who ignores (or just doesn't care) that their alley is pathetically weak, ill tempered, and laughably too high on its own koolaid.

Godwin achieved.

China won't absord NK, because none of their neighbors will view it favorably, because they don't want to absorb it because the country is a mess, and because it suits their foreign policy to keep NK around more than anything.