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Crying on a forum about a book that hasn't even come out yet is pretty silly. Along with crying 'your army is stronger than mine, so I'm not playing'

Not really, as this is a discussion board.

To point 1 - touche. I like that response.

To point 2 - I don't mind peoples opinions being different. I have no problem with a different opinion at all. But to have to trawl through page upon page of cry baby attitude on every forum I go on is incredibly frustrating. I've been a loyal eldar player for years. To have every tantrum thrower state "just refuse to play them" is infuriating. Perhaps I'll refuse to play decurion formations. Or cent stars. Perhaps I'll refuse to play just about any unit that is slightly more powerful than one of mine. It's poor form. And it's not what this game is all about. How about, wait until the hook comes out. Play against it a few times and then decide how you feel about it. I bet it won't be all that bad.

Equally, as an eldar player, I point blank refuse to restrict myself and not buy the models that I like, or equally not field the ones I have already put so much time and effort into just because people are butt hurt.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ha. Edited so my reply makes no sense. Nice touch.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
To point 1 - touche. I like that response.

To point 2 - I don't mind peoples opinions being different. I have no problem with a different opinion at all. But to have to trawl through page upon page of cry baby attitude on every forum I go on is incredibly frustrating. I've been a loyal eldar player for years. To have every tantrum thrower state "just refuse to play them" is infuriating. Perhaps I'll refuse to play decurion formations. Or cent stars. Perhaps I'll refuse to play just about any unit that is slightly more powerful than one of mine. It's poor form. And it's not what this game is all about. How about, wait until the hook comes out. Play against it a few times and then decide how you feel about it. I bet it won't be all that bad.

Equally, as an eldar player, I point blank refuse to restrict myself and not buy the models that I like, or equally not field the ones I have already put so much time and effort into just because people are butt hurt.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ha. Edited so my reply makes no sense. Nice touch.

People calling for boycotts of any and all Eldar players are clearly overreacting. That's petty and childish. But thinking you've somehow earned the right to field any units you want and no one can decline to play you? You're deluding yourself. If you can't see that there are some potential builds from this codex that would cause a reasonable opponent to say "No thanks" to a friendly match, you've got your head in the sand.

(Edit: I have to add that it's a shame and I feel for you. You've invested a lot of money in models you like to build an army you like, and the company running the game is so incompetent you can't even field those models now without being TFG and ruining everyone else's fun)

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
To point 1 - touche. I like that response.

To point 2 - I don't mind peoples opinions being different. I have no problem with a different opinion at all. But to have to trawl through page upon page of cry baby attitude on every forum I go on is incredibly frustrating. I've been a loyal eldar player for years. To have every tantrum thrower state "just refuse to play them" is infuriating. Perhaps I'll refuse to play decurion formations. Or cent stars. Perhaps I'll refuse to play just about any unit that is slightly more powerful than one of mine. It's poor form. And it's not what this game is all about. How about, wait until the hook comes out. Play against it a few times and then decide how you feel about it. I bet it won't be all that bad.

Equally, as an eldar player, I point blank refuse to restrict myself and not buy the models that I like, or equally not field the ones I have already put so much time and effort into just because people are butt hurt.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ha. Edited so my reply makes no sense. Nice touch.

I edited before you posted, as I felt that I was being petty.

I can sympathize with the frustration- but I think it's misplaced. If anything, you should be upset (more upset?) with GW, as this is an excellent example of how creating unbalanced rule-sets is damaging to everyone, including the players who are using those rules (Eldar players). It isn't Eldar players' fault that their army is hilariously broken, but on the other hand it's to be expected that people will be upset, especially after getting creamed by this same army for two editions now. You can say "adapt adapt adapt" , but the reality is that even if you can pull out a win against an Eldar list, the principle remains that the odds are vastly stacked against you for no reason other then the fact that the people who make this product are terrible at their jobs. That's pretty frustrating, and playing at 150% just to have a chance against someone playing at 100% with a better codex doesn't make that sting any less.

on psychic powers I always used my codex powers and never used the GW rule book powers I felt that I was very fluffy to play with just these rather than finding the best super psychic combo. but I agree with the OP that it will be fun fielding aspect armies.

I will be running a massive variety of lists now which makes me really happy, but I guess it sucks to not be Eldar.

but to be honest it always sucked not being Eldar, manga space elves are the one.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
To point 1 - touche. I like that response.

To point 2 - I don't mind peoples opinions being different. I have no problem with a different opinion at all. But to have to trawl through page upon page of cry baby attitude on every forum I go on is incredibly frustrating. I've been a loyal eldar player for years. To have every tantrum thrower state "just refuse to play them" is infuriating. Perhaps I'll refuse to play decurion formations. Or cent stars. Perhaps I'll refuse to play just about any unit that is slightly more powerful than one of mine. It's poor form. And it's not what this game is all about. How about, wait until the hook comes out. Play against it a few times and then decide how you feel about it. I bet it won't be all that bad.

Equally, as an eldar player, I point blank refuse to restrict myself and not buy the models that I like, or equally not field the ones I have already put so much time and effort into just because people are butt hurt.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ha. Edited so my reply makes no sense. Nice touch.

See and this is why the game is Fked

Some people want to play the hardest and best list - now if all the lists were about equal AND everyone wanted to play that way - it would be fine.

But what you have is something like this

two football managers are picking teams - one is picking theri players from Manchester United, the other from the local primary school - yeah thats going to be a fun game - for no-one. Thats the exact situation 40k is now in.

Basically you have been handed a hugely OP Codex and don't get why people donlt want to constantly fight from a loosing postion in the remote possibility that they might somehow win and then to add the icing to the turn you are then complaining that people feel hard done by that they are putting models on the table merely to be taken off. Sheesh I wonder why they are unhappy when people liek you say - no I want to play the aboulte worst units I can and make sure you have zero chance............

To those mouthing platiutdues about "oh just wait and you might get a new codex" - why the F should they have to wait and why is this one Codex designed to slaughter everyone else

. Play against it a few times and then decide how you feel about it. I bet it won't be all that bad

And what if it is, what if its worse - Cheese Serpents were never fixed in the last edition depsite their obvious brokeness to everyone who played the game, there will not be a offical fix for this as GW don't care.

Lastly - hand on heart - can say that the new Codex rules

1) Fair and Balanced
2) in line with other codexes,
3) it was needed that EVERY unit (except maybe Cheese Serpents) received a buff or a points reduction

If you can then you have no soul................

I think that's where I disagree with a lot of people. GW might not be competent enough to write a balanced game. I have no issue there. My issue is with the players. There are far too many players who do not give a second though to fluff, variation or fun. These are the WAAC players, and this where the anger should be aimed.

I've mentioned it before. Everyone I game with has absolutely no problem with the new book. But they also know I won't spam D strength weapons or scatter bikes. I am in the habit of building fluffy lists. But there are too many out there who will willingly abuse anything even remotely OP. For a while I contemplated starting a tyranids list. But I got so absolutely sick and fed up of hearing "drop everything, take 5 flyrants with TLBLDevs" it gets damn boring. And these are the people that deserve the abuse.

They're likely the players who will flock to this codex like moths to flames. And will be no fun to play against. But they've always existed. They just have a new book to work with.

And to the last post. I think almost all the aspects did need buffs. I don't think wraith guard are a problem as they cost a small fortune to get them anywhere as their range is so short. The knight is the only real broken choice. That's the one that makes me sad.

Blame the system, not the players. It's GW that is making this stuff legal in the first place. Players should not have to self-police. That's not a standard in ANY competitive game other than this one. And it's stupid and lazy on the part of GW.

Trying to say that scatbikes aren't broken, to me, shows that you don't play with players who try. Because I can already imagine what a hell my meta will be with those things.

It seems to me that the Eldar players who are annoyed with the community's complaints either have no objective sense of the meta, and can't imagine what it might be like for most armies to have to face this nonsense; OR just don't understand how disappointing it must be for other armies (Dark Eldar for instance) who saw the general balances being done and thought that there was light at the end of the tunnel. Between BA, SW (for the most part), Dark Eldar, Khorne Daemonkin, Tyranids (outside of Flyrant Spam,) and several others, I really got the impression that GW was on the right track. Can these players really not see how frustrating it is to have to go from the heavy sighs of seeing serpent spam on 70% of tables to the even heavier sigh of ranged D weapons and Scatbikers? I would be willing to bet that if these Eldar players played half a dozen games with an army that requires any skill against either 6th or the new 7th edition codex, their opinion would change. Any Eldar player that doesn't have the sense to see why these changes are poisonous to the community simply lacks empathy.

Gamers lacking empathy? Stop the presses!

So after getting over my initial shock and a feeling of guilt for playing primarily eldar despite the new book not even being out, I realized a few things. For starters, I don't actually own any guardian jetbikes, wraith guard, or wraith knights. I play largely foot-based armies with lots of jump/jetpackers.

Second, the formations I'd most likely be using (the aspect ones) actually sound pretty cool! BS5 on my aspects looks pretty daunting on paper, but I'd like to wait and see what a list with that formation actually looks like before condemning it. Between WS 5 and the ability to auto-run 6", I can almost see foot banshees being a reasonable unit for friendly games! I really like the stealth+shrouded thing they're doing for scorpions, and BS 2 overwatch on avengers, while quite good, actually seems like a reasonably powerful change provided their cost goes up just slightly. Plus it makes for a great mental image of 300-style spartans holding the gap.

This is probably just my inexperience with destroyer weapons showing, but they actually don't seem *that* bad. I think most people (eldar included) would probably have preferred that most of our wraith/d weapons not become actual d-weapons, but let's stop and think about how such weapons would be used. They're amazing at taking out extremely durable units, but is that really a bad thing? Land raiders get dissolved, sure, but land raiders die pretty fast these days anyway. death stars can be torn apart by them, and that's actually kind of a good thing in my eyes. Would you rather we not have answers to death stars? So they're a solid answer to those annoying units you wish your opponent wouldn't shove so many points into, but how about middling or swarmy units? Remember, those d-weapons do extra wounds to a given model, but not to the unit as a whole. Shoot them at a green tide, and you're using a lot of points to kill at most 1 model per attack. If the d-weapons really do have a -1 to their d-weapon table, then they're essentially poison 3+ weapons that do multiple wounds to a single target. I'm not saying this is a great design decision, but it's not necessarily a game breaker by itself either. It's good against multi-wound models and vehicles. It's actually pretty bad against hordes.

Against large squads of wraith guard, you can assault them with a throwaway unit to eat overwatch, then send in something that's moderately good at close combat to take care of them. Any unit with poison or a powerfist and most MCs are good for this.

The jetbikes are pretty ridiculous. I'll be taking solace in the fact that no one in the area has a huge force of jetbikes, and that getting ahold of a ton of shuriken cannons and scatter lasers can be tricky, especially if you still want to use them on your serpents and walkers.

So yeah. Not feelin too bad about this codex after all. Yes, there are broken things in it, but fortunately they don't happen to be units that I use anyway. Instead, I can use the units that are all getting interesting overhauls that don't look to break the game.

I don't think it's fair that eldar players should have to not use certain units they spent time and money on due to un balanced rules.

On the the flip side. Other armies also paid money and pit time into their models and got shafted due to un balanced rules.

When Orks, CSM, DA books came out there was a lot of " we got nerfed " posts

I don't see ANY eldar "we got nerfed" posts.

Why is that ?.....

Note: The following comment does not apply to any of the units/formations listed in the OP.

With regards to people complaining about how "every unit got buffed", I have only this to say:

Why shouldn't every unit in the codex be effective on the tabletop? Seriously, you can't tell me that some of these units didn't need a power increase. Banshees are the first to come to mind, but Hawks and the Phoenix Lords were also widely ignored due to being sub-optimal choices.

Just because other codexes are lacking in internal balance doesn't mean that Eldar shouldn't have internal balance. It's much the same sort of complaint leveled at the new Necrons, where every unit is good, but some units are better than others in specific contexts.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Note: The following comment does not apply to any of the units/formations listed in the OP.

With regards to people complaining about how "every unit got buffed", I have only this to say:

Why shouldn't every unit in the codex be effective on the tabletop? Seriously, you can't tell me that some of these units didn't need a power increase. Banshees are the first to come to mind, but Hawks and the Phoenix Lords were also widely ignored due to being sub-optimal choices.

Just because other codexes are lacking in internal balance doesn't mean that Eldar shouldn't have internal balance. It's much the same sort of complaint leveled at the new Necrons, where every unit is good, but some units are better than others in specific contexts.

That's the reason people are complaining / up set. Not every codex gets the same treatment.

Why do some codex lack balance / op units and others get them. That's the issue.

I'm an Eldar player, and I refuse to be labeled as TFG. I know TFG, I have seen him destroy poor newbies, and it really does not matter what army they play. There is nothing sadder than watching kids sadly pick all their freshly glued grey plastic minis off the table Turn 3.

I get that non-Eldar players are upset, but to label ALL Eldar players as cheese is a bit much. Eldar have a reputation, and It annoys me that when I say I'm playing Eldar that I get the eye-rolls and whiny comments from some long time gamers. Its weird that my fluffy wraith list suddenly looks like an object of hate. I also understand why Eldar players are defending the codex. They have poured time and money into this army, only to turn around and be labeled as TFG. Sorry, we will not play the 6th ed codex, that is absurd.

GW does not make a balanced game. It seemed like they were on that path, but then Necrons and now Eldar, and we can all stop deluding ourselves that there will ever be balance.

But, I am very excited for this codex, NOT because I can field cheese, but because I have options. I can go straight cheese if its a tournament or I see that my opponent is bringing his 3 Flyrants or Cent star. I want a competitive player to play against a competitive list, and I can bring it with this codex. I can run fluffy lists if its a casual environment and I see that my opponent has a nicely balanced Marine list. I can actually run aspects, or Footdar, or even an assault theme with my harlequins.

Its easy to forget how small this community really is. We can't really afford to hate on other players just because of the army they play. If someone wants to be TFG, they will find a way, and right now they are selling their Tau army to buy a bunch of new jetbikes. This new codex just give those players more tools to be TFG.

You don't have to play them. I mean, its supposed to be fun, right?

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Note: The following comment does not apply to any of the units/formations listed in the OP.

With regards to people complaining about how "every unit got buffed", I have only this to say:

Why shouldn't every unit in the codex be effective on the tabletop? Seriously, you can't tell me that some of these units didn't need a power increase. Banshees are the first to come to mind, but Hawks and the Phoenix Lords were also widely ignored due to being sub-optimal choices.

Just because other codexes are lacking in internal balance doesn't mean that Eldar shouldn't have internal balance. It's much the same sort of complaint leveled at the new Necrons, where every unit is good, but some units are better than others in specific contexts.

Most people here aren't complaining about the buffs to scorpions, banshees and the like. I know I am happy to see units like that become playable. I think most people are rallying around the scatbike/WK/ranged D-weapon issue.

Right, and that ties into the idea of handicapping oneself when building a list. It's all a matter of communicating with your prospective opponent about what kind of game they want to play.

The people who are spamming Wraith units and Scatriders aren't playing Eldar the way they were meant to be played. The Eldar are not the hammer of the Imperium; they're a collection of knives with each one suitable for a specific purpose.

Unless you're playing Codex: Scatriders and D-Weapons, in which case you just hammer away.

Well, look, it's really simple.

In 6e, reasonable Eldar players didn't spam Wave Serpents and Wraithknights. In 7e, reasonable Eldar players won't spam Jetbikes and Wraithknights. Not like those were winning strategies against good players anyhow -- they were just skill-less, and cheesy.

How is that so complicated?

Oh yes, I would like all the people who said, "I play Wave Serpents because I love their look" to please field their 6 wave serpents now

I have never seen a 6th ed Eldar list with less than 5 serpents. Maybe 4 a couple times now that I think hard.

Martel732 wrote:
I have never seen a 6th ed Eldar list with less than 5 serpents. Maybe 4 a couple times now that I think hard.

You, my friend, need to find better 40k play partners.

Vashones wrote:
I'm an Eldar player, and I refuse to be labeled as TFG. I know TFG, I have seen him destroy poor newbies, and it really does not matter what army they play. There is nothing sadder than watching kids sadly pick all their freshly glued grey plastic minis off the table Turn 3.

I agree! My Eldar army is sorely outdated (6000 3e points... and 6000 points of unpainted newer models, lol), so I can hardly call myself an Eldar player. However, we have one fellow in our regular group who almost always plays his Eldar, and he's great to play with. I have no idea why people assume that because someone plays a faction, they are TFG. Most vets can curb stomp a newb if they choose to, and really, that is the definition of TFG.

Vashones wrote:

Sorry, we will not play the 6th ed codex, that is absurd.

Yes, that's just being silly. It's unsustainable even in the short term to expect Eldar players to not play 7e codex. It is reasonable to expect them not to play super annoying armies, in the same way they could field a half dozen Serpents in 6e.

Vashones wrote:

But, I am very excited for this codex, NOT because I can field cheese, but because I have options. I can go straight cheese if its a tournament or I see that my opponent is bringing his 3 Flyrants or Cent star.

Talys, you're spot on. I'm just worried that Eldar are going to be even more stigmatized in the eyes of many players.

Fortunately, things can only get better. Ranged D and the Wraithknight are probably going to be banned from tournaments for being too overpowered. There's already a thread theorizing ways to counter jetbike spam at a competitive level.

Once the codex is released, there's probably going to need to be a multi-page thread about how other armies can counter Eldar.

 Talys wrote:
Well, look, it's really simple.

In 6e, reasonable Eldar players didn't spam Wave Serpents and Wraithknights. In 7e, reasonable Eldar players won't spam Jetbikes and Wraithknights. Not like those were winning strategies against good players anyhow -- they were just skill-less, and cheesy.

How is that so complicated?

Oh yes, I would like all the people who said, "I play Wave Serpents because I love their look" to please field their 6 wave serpents now

This. Love this post. Agreed 100%. The most serpents I ever fielded was 3. And that was my semi comp list. And only because units like scythe guard and fragons needed the mobility. So I'll likely still bring them. Even with the nerfs. I actually like the fact that I won't be whinged at for bringing them anymore.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

 Talys wrote:
Well, look, it's really simple.

In 6e, reasonable Eldar players didn't spam Wave Serpents and Wraithknights. In 7e, reasonable Eldar players won't spam Jetbikes and Wraithknights. Not like those were winning strategies against good players anyhow -- they were just skill-less, and cheesy.

How is that so complicated?

Oh yes, I would like all the people who said, "I play Wave Serpents because I love their look" to please field their 6 wave serpents now

This. Love this post. Agreed 100%. The most serpents I ever fielded was 3. And that was my semi comp list. And only because units like scythe guard and fragons needed the mobility. So I'll likely still bring them. Even with the nerfs. I actually like the fact that I won't be whinged at for bringing them anymore.

100% agree also, great post Talys!

Exalted for truth.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I think that's where I disagree with a lot of people. GW might not be competent enough to write a balanced game. I have no issue there. My issue is with the players.

There is so much wrong with this.

 Quickjager wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I think that's where I disagree with a lot of people. GW might not be competent enough to write a balanced game. I have no issue there. My issue is with the players.

There is so much wrong with this.

He's got a point. I'm of the belief and liking that GW doesn't write rules to be balanced or competitive, they write them to be, more than anything, fun. They've done a decent (not that terrible, not that great) though inconstant job thus far. I agree with Khaine's Wrath that there are too many WAAC players, and that WAAC players hurt the game more than any rules that GW has ever, or likely will ever, put out.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
If you haven't seen the new Eldar codex, go check the rumors thread. I can wait.

Now that your eyes have returned to their sockets and your jaw is off the floor, I can concretely state that the new Eldar codex will break 7th edition 40k. Ranged D, Scatbikes, the list goes on.
However, this is actually bad news for us Eldar players. Anyone seen in possession of this book will instantly be referred to as TFG without so much as setting a model on the tabletop. Our opponents will carefully scrutinize our army lists to find an excuse to refuse to play us. In short, this book has ruined whatever little reputation the Eldar had left.

But all is not lost! We will simply have to take the path of 5th edition Grey Knights: intentionally handicap and gimp our lists so that people will actually want to play against us. Note that this is only in the context of casual/friendly games. If you're planning on winning tournaments, cheese your way to victory! Yours is the easiest path of them all!

With that in mind, we should first look at the various general playstyles and how they will be affected.

Saim-Hann: Scatriders are now one of the most unbalanced units in all of 40k. Shuriken are even worse if taken in the Warhost. Only model one cannon per three jetbikes if you intend to get games.
Iyanden: Even more screwed. Even if the ITC doesn't rule it out, expect plenty of "No ranged D" house rules. If you can, play using the 6th edition Distort rules. Your opponent will thank you.
Biel-Tan: Actually in a good position. The Aspect Host is quite reasonable and flexible, depending on what units you like to use.
Ulthwe: Also not too bad. Guardians aren't a tax, and the Seer council is excellent. Dominate the psychic phase like you're playing Daemons.
Serpent Spam: Now no longer viable due to Serpent shield nerf. Not like you didn't deserve it for 6th edition

There are definitely some units and formations we should avoid:

Wraithknights: Unbelievably undercosted. If you insist, only take as a Lord of War in a CAD.
Jetbikes: Whole threads are dedicated to their ridiculousness. Like I said, only take one cannon for every three bikes if you want to run them.
Wraithguard: More ranged D madness. Fortunately, Fire Dragons fulfill much the same role, but with melta.
D-Cannons: Ranged D in artillery form. Opt for Shadow Weaver/Vibro Cannon instead.
Dire Avenger Shrine: Assault 3 Bladestorm at BS5 and BS2 overwatch is too much. The Aspect Host is much more reasonable.

If you close your eyes and pretend the unbalanced units simply aren't options, we have a variety of tools to compete with in a more sportsmanlike fashion. I personally view this as a challenge to prove that a good player can win without using ludicrously written rules.

I welcome any feedback from both Eldar veterans and non-Eldar players as to how to play Eldar with the new codex in a balanced, reasonable way.

Missed the Hemlock on the first pass. Fixing that.
Hemlock Wraithfighter: A smaller. psychic version of the Vampire Hunter. Like the Vampire Hunter, use only in Apocalypse games against people you hate.

First I'd like to apologise - I stayed away from this thread for a while due to the title, I assumed it was going to be a thread about how players should 'adapt' to the new eldar codex. I was very pleasently surprised to read your OP. So sorry for my initial assumption.

I have to applaud you for your objective view point and attempt to try and fix what most people agree blatently needs fixing. You see that this harms eldar players more than anyone.

I'm just worried that it (refraining from taking obviously broken units) just won't work (as in - be applied) to many gaming cicles. But that shouldn't stop people from trying, for the exact reason you state - good sportsmanship.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

triant308 wrote:
It seems to me that the Eldar players who are annoyed with the community's complaints either have no objective sense of the meta, and can't imagine what it might be like for most armies to have to face this nonsense; OR just don't understand how disappointing it must be for other armies (Dark Eldar for instance) who saw the general balances being done and thought that there was light at the end of the tunnel. Between BA, SW (for the most part), Dark Eldar, Khorne Daemonkin, Tyranids (outside of Flyrant Spam,) and several others, I really got the impression that GW was on the right track. Can these players really not see how frustrating it is to have to go from the heavy sighs of seeing serpent spam on 70% of tables to the even heavier sigh of ranged D weapons and Scatbikers? I would be willing to bet that if these Eldar players played half a dozen games with an army that requires any skill against either 6th or the new 7th edition codex, their opinion would change. Any Eldar player that doesn't have the sense to see why these changes are poisonous to the community simply lacks empathy.

This is an excellent explanation of why people are annoyed.

 Quickjager wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I think that's where I disagree with a lot of people. GW might not be competent enough to write a balanced game. I have no issue there. My issue is with the players.

There is so much wrong with this.

How is that wrong? Due to a combination of factors, Warhammer 40k has never been a balanced game. There has always been an element of negotiation involved between both players as to what game that want. Anyone who thinks that 40k was balanced "back in the day" is having a case of rose-colored nostalgia.

The problem with the new Eldar codex is that it upsets the balance in such a way that no other army can reasonably counter it.

 Talys wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I have never seen a 6th ed Eldar list with less than 5 serpents. Maybe 4 a couple times now that I think hard.

You, my friend, need to find better 40k play partners.

Vashones wrote:
I'm an Eldar player, and I refuse to be labeled as TFG. I know TFG, I have seen him destroy poor newbies, and it really does not matter what army they play. There is nothing sadder than watching kids sadly pick all their freshly glued grey plastic minis off the table Turn 3.

I agree! My Eldar army is sorely outdated (6000 3e points... and 6000 points of unpainted newer models, lol), so I can hardly call myself an Eldar player. However, we have one fellow in our regular group who almost always plays his Eldar, and he's great to play with. I have no idea why people assume that because someone plays a faction, they are TFG. Most vets can curb stomp a newb if they choose to, and really, that is the definition of TFG.

Vashones wrote:

Sorry, we will not play the 6th ed codex, that is absurd.

Yes, that's just being silly. It's unsustainable even in the short term to expect Eldar players to not play 7e codex. It is reasonable to expect them not to play super annoying armies, in the same way they could field a half dozen Serpents in 6e.

Vashones wrote:

But, I am very excited for this codex, NOT because I can field cheese, but because I have options. I can go straight cheese if its a tournament or I see that my opponent is bringing his 3 Flyrants or Cent star.

I'm don't think the obvious cheese everyone is talking about is tournament-winning anyhow. But anyways, the options are cool. It will be neat to play against a variety of warhosts. I know my buddy can field any of the war hosts listed, and I really look forward to playing against all of them, regardless of whether I win or lose.

 Squidmanlolz wrote:
He's got a point. I'm of the belief and liking that GW doesn't write rules to be balanced or competitive, they write them to be, more than anything, fun.

Losing half your army in a turn and/or needing to play three times as good as your opponent in order to have a chance of winning due to the imbalance in power between your codices is not "fun".

This is a core point, and I don't really understand why people struggle so much to understand it:

Game unbalance makes games unfun. Fact. There is a direct correlation between power unbalance in this game and resentment/hurt feelings/feeling like you've wasted your time/money etc.