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Without rules, GW dies. There would be no reason what so ever to buy two boxes of anything unless you have someone who has a desire to build entire forces just for the look.

The average person who paints models for model sakes wouldn't paint two or three of anything simply because there are other models from other companies that need the brushes magic touch.

I have painted about 30 1/6 th scale anime garage kits. They are all done for looks and just sit on the shelf. I have only two kits that are the same character (different poses thou) simply because there are so many other characters I want to get to.

The same thing would apply to GW models. I'd probably only have 1 Hammerhead instead of the three that I do own now because there would be no reason to actually own 3.

Flame bait thread?

For me to buy a model for the sake of being a model, it's gotta be dang good. I buy Gundam models because they're a whole other beast to put together and the detail and posability...and engineering in general blow anything GW makes out of the water. For 1/3 the price.
But without a game, I don't buy minis. I love collecting and painting, but they need some practical purpose for me.

 Jayden63 wrote:
Without rules, GW dies. There would be no reason what so ever to buy two boxes of anything unless you have someone who has a desire to build entire forces just for the look.

The average person who paints models for model sakes wouldn't paint two or three of anything simply because there are other models from other companies that need the brushes magic touch.

I have painted about 30 1/6 th scale anime garage kits. They are all done for looks and just sit on the shelf. I have only two kits that are the same character (different poses thou) simply because there are so many other characters I want to get to.

The same thing would apply to GW models. I'd probably only have 1 Hammerhead instead of the three that I do own now because there would be no reason to actually own 3.

while i agree that the rules are important for the wider reach of the business, without rules, there is still incentive for a collector like me to have multiples of the same kit...
one is simply different loadouts and the other is, as you mentioned, building an entire force for the look, as well as painting an army to sell, or even for competition like Armies on Parade...

while it is pretty obvious that rules drive model sales overall, don't think that a non-gamer like me buys any less than a gamer...
i am the one who keeps saying that i don't care about price, nor do i need a use for the model other than it looks cool, but am just passionate abot collecting minis...
i have three Vindicators because the Apocalypse box was a good deal...
i bought entire WFB armies simply because the big box came with the book and an LE mini, and i collected them all...
i own one of every variety of Land Raider, including the Terminus Ultra and FW varients...
that is the point of being a "Collector", you need to have all the rare and special stuff, as well as the normal stuff for when it goes OOP...
when i say i am a collector, i am not saying i am a casual customer...
the Collector, large"C", is a mini fanatic...

i totally get the "without rules, GW dies" argument...
i do not, however agree with the "collectors never buy two boxes of anything" argument...
a lot of times it is easier to buy a second box of something than it it is to go looking for another copy of the choicest bits from a box...
pay $15 bucks for two bits i really want, or $25 for a second box???
i just buy the second box, every time...

cheers
jah

 jah-joshua wrote:
i totally get the "without rules, GW dies" argument...
i do not, however agree with the "collectors never buy two boxes of anything" argument...

I have many friends that game, but also paint models of for armies they have no interest in ever gaming. Many of those actually have multiple copies of the same model, sometimes for a simple a reason as, "I like the model, and I want to own it painted in more than one scheme". In fact, you see people who collect (and paint) models have multiple copies of *character* models, something that pure gamers rarely do. I'm just as guilty: I think I own 6 copies of Captain Victoria Haley, and 4 of Major Victoria Haley. And I've never played Cyrix.

@Talys: you mean Cygnar...

yeah, i have a few mini that i get multiple copies of to make conversions...
on top of that, i also bought all the Collector's Series stuff, both from Forge World and Rackham...
as a collector, large scale items are just as appealing as 28mm stuff...

i'll also be buying the two new 40K campaign boxes, just because i want the special characters...
i already own a box of Vanguards, but i used the cool sword and Sergeant's jump pack...
those two bits are enough to make me happy about getting another box...

with bundle discounts, and a 25% off discount on top of that, i am more than happy to have the rest of the contents of the boxes, even though i don't need the minis gaming-wise...
i can always use the Land Speeder for something like the Riptide to stand a foot on, or the Pirahna for the base of a Wraithknight...
Pathfinders would make a cool squad for a painting comp., and the Sternguard are just something i want in my collection, but haven't got around to buying...
i have multiple boxes of Tacticals, Assault Marines, and Devastators, just for a project or two that i daydream about...

i see plenty of gamers who say that they only buy the things they will have a use for...
i buy everything that i think is cool...
gamers say, "I'm on a budget.", while i say that money is just there to get me cool stuff...

while i am one guy, and there are hundreds of thousands of gamers, i don't have any illusion about who butters GW's bread...
my only point is that Collectors, like me, don't just pick and choose single minis here and there, but buy everything that appeals, because you never know when it will go OOP...
many people are buying Rogue Trader minis on eBay, while i have had those same minis in my collection since they were new releases, including box sets and starters...

some people collect Beenie Babies, Lego, Transformers, or G.I.Joe...
i collect wargaming minis, mags, and books...

cheers
jah

@jah - yeah Cyngar, sorry. O.O >hangs head in shame<

Unless PP is now making microprocessors I bought a few Cyrix CPUs back in the day too... those were horrible, hahaha.

I too will buy the Ravenguard box essentially just to get the special character. I've basically also raided Sternguard and Vanguard boxes for parts, so I guess if I get another set of them... I could always build Sternguard and Vanguard Vets, hehe. Those are fantastic sets for bits, anyhow -- it was around then that GW picked up its game in terms of bits madness for me.

At the end of the day, though, the OP's question is really a moot one. There is no reason for GW to stop printing rules, because, well, they make lots of money off of rules -- both to gamers and non-gamers alike.

It's like saying, would people still go to McDonalds if they took out all of the chairs and tables? Or, would people still go to the grocery if they stopped selling vegetables and milk? Maybe... but the sales would surely be lower, and for what possible reason would they?

@ talys & jah-joshua: the question isn't so much whether or not you'd buy multiples of units without a game attached, but whether or not there are enough people like you to support gw if there wasn't a game bringing in gamers.

@Talys: right...
there is no reason for GW to stop making rules...
this whole kerfuffle is, as far as i can tell, a result of the legal strategy for the Chapterhouse case, which people have jumped on and taken to an illogical extreme...
the amount of people stoked for the new Tau releases show that 40K isn't going anywhere soon...
i could be wrong, but i think that as long as GW keeps making high quality HIPS kits, they will not go the way of Rackham...
if they switch to pre-painted plastics, then we know the end is nigh...

@Torga: honestly, i think the answer is overwhelmingly no, GW would not survive the abandonment of gaming...
i know that i am a fairly unique case, but i don't think i am the only one who buys way more minis than i could ever use or paint...
however, there are enough customers who call themselves gamers, but they play so infrequently that they may as well be called collectors, who have a closet full of kits...
the rules are still important to them, because they entertain the idea of playing...

one interesting question is, where do the rules start and stop???
for instance, i don't read the rules sections of the big rule books (as pertains to how to move, shoot, take casualties, morale, and such), but i read the fluff, and look at the pretty pictures...
for a Codex, i read the fluff, as well as the squad options, which inform the daydreams of building an army...
it also helps to know how to advise my clients on builds and game legality...
so, while i would still buy minis without a game behind it, i don't want to see the game die, because i still enjoy the army building side of the rules...

long story short, gaming is not important to me as a collector, but rules are very important to me as a professional painter...

cheers
jah

-

 Byte wrote:
Flame bait thread?

Nope, it's a real question. I stopped playing 40K back in 2E, but continued to collect the models. I was curious if I was alone in collecting and not playing. I only started back actually playing when Necrons were revised (I set my son up with Dawn of War, and when I showed him the old minis I had, he wanted to try it out with the models), and I play only about once every two months or so. Of what I had seen with Age of Sigmar, it really feels like GW is trying to get away from bothering with rules and instead trying to push "models turned to 11" with lots of "story" behind them - not rules, but stories.

For me, if GW stopped making rules and just did the models, it'd be a relief. Especially if someone else - say FFG - started making the ruleset for them. However, I suspect (as many others have stated), that if GW went model only, it would be unsustainable for them.

The line "we make models not games" or "We are a models company first" is far far older than the Chapterhouse case, it shows a deeply rooted mentality in GWs high management.

GW is not a models company, if they were they would behave like one, which they do not, their behavior is far from what any model company does and their prices are also way out of line for a models only company.

If they ever attempted to be a models company and not a games company producing game pieces (toy soldiers) for wargames they would fail spectacularly, as is they are a games company who uses their games to add value to their products and drive the sales they need to be sustainable, because frankly even if a small percentage of their current customers buy a kit many times, because reasons, the vast majority of the customers that they would have as a models only company would not do so.

I cannot decide if their stance of dismissing the true nature of their business at least externally (AoS is a clear example of how much rules are important to their models) is because they do not understand their product, because they do not know how to sell it to their investors (we make toys and rules to play with them) or because they have illusions of grandeur, but as a company their models alone do not carry them.

 Byte wrote:
Flame bait thread?

I really don't think so - some of the responses have been short, but I am seeing none that are knee-jerk 'No! DIE!' reactions.

But I do think that most folks, even those that most love the GW kits as models, agree that more purchases are driven by gaming than by those that just want to paint the models and put them on the shelf.

A well painted model gets a better reaction as it is placed on the table - sitting on the shelf is a lot easier to overlook.

The Auld Grump

 Stormonu wrote:
Heavens no, not as in "everyone should be like them", but as in "only making models".

GW has intimated for a few years now that they primarily are about making models. What if they were to completely embrace that aspect - dump making rulesets, let Black Library make some fiction novels and just concentrate on making "high-quality" model kits, ala Tamiya, Revel, Monogram, Testors and the other makers of plastic models?

Would you still buy GW's models if they weren't involved in making the rules for a game to play them in?

All I see is a company running itself into a wall with an overinflated product, and little to no common business sense. They will bleed money for the next couple of months or so, then we're going to see the writing on the wall come the next profits meeting, as they kill off a couple of those one man shops every month, sell of the little profit makers here and there and keep it going just a little while longer, chalking up a win, while walking down the street naked.



I'm back-paddaling on my GW purchases to zero in the past two years. This is from a guy who typically in a month would buy 120.00-400.00 for the armies a month, and if it went well, sometimes a week..

That new game is typical of GW anymore. Make some sort of high speed models, and people will just jump at it like lemmings. Any day, I'm expecting them to say--" Ha ha, you tools will buy ANYTHING with GW on it, bow down and Workshop us!!!"

This thread actually ought to be related to the painted/not painted argument.

Presumably all the people who prefer to play with unpainted figures would be players first, modellers second.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
This thread actually ought to be related to the painted/not painted argument.

Presumably all the people who prefer to play with unpainted figures would be players first, modellers second.

Fair play, that.

Though any number of folks that I know who play with semi-painted armies are actually decent painters, when they find the time.

The Auld Grump

I don't want to make it into a painted versus unpainted thread. It needs to be considered, though, that anyone playing with unpainted or semi-painted figures is playing for the sake of playing, not because they just want to build models.

Personally I can't see why you would bother paying for GW stuff if that's the case. Spoken as an ex grey-horde player...

So, the question is whether or not a company with significantly higher prices than other brands, poor detail and kit quality, and limited mainstream appeal can survive purely on the quality of its models without any rules to support them? And we're asking this when the company in question is struggling to succeed even with rules to drive its sales? Of course the answer is "no". How did we manage to have three pages worth of discussion on this subject?

 Peregrine wrote:
So, the question is whether or not a company with significantly higher prices than other brands, poor detail and kit quality, and limited mainstream appeal can survive purely on the quality of its models without any rules to support them? And we're asking this when the company in question is struggling to succeed even with rules to drive its sales? Of course the answer is "no". How did we manage to have three pages worth of discussion on this subject?

"significantly higher than other brands" Only partially true. Warmahordes, the one everyone loves to bring up, is just as much. It, like many other hobbies, end up running about 40-70 dollars a month after you first big "getting into the game" push. Yes, there are hobbies that are cheaper. No, most of the big name ones aren't, it's precieved value.


To OP: no where near as much. maybe some of the Cooler looking models, to paint. I.E. FW's primarchs, pedro cantor, etc.

 Brennonjw wrote:
"significantly higher than other brands" Only partially true. Warmahordes, the one everyone loves to bring up, is just as much. It, like many other hobbies, end up running about 40-70 dollars a month after you first big "getting into the game" push. Yes, there are hobbies that are cheaper. No, most of the big name ones aren't, it's precieved value.

I'm talking about historical and other non-gaming kits. If GW becomes a model-only company then that's their competition, and they don't have the advantage of "you can use these in a game" to boost the value of their kits.

If GW is compared to actual modeling kits like that they fail hard. A good Tamiya tank is like a third of the price of an equivalent sized GW one, is so much more detailed and involved when it comes to the building of it and the actual kit is technically far more advanced (brass etch and metal barrels to avoid the mould lines all the way up immediately spring to mind.)

why would we compare GW's kits to fine scale models???
it isn't even the same ballpark...

GW is a wargaming miniatures company, no matter how we slice it...
they make miniatures that are intended for use in wargames...
they also produce the rules for the games that the miniatures are intended to be used in...
they promote collecting, modeling, painting, and gaming as one unified hobby...

GW themselves, in all of their official literature (i.e. the Investors website) call themselves a miniature wargaming company, as in they make miniatures and war games to use those miniatures in...
nowhere that i can find do they say that they only make miniatures, and don't care about the games, yet people carry on like that is the case...

i would be very happy to see where the actual "we make models not games" quote comes from...
as for "we are a models company first" that is quite reasonable, though i don't know where that exact quote comes from either...
every company that produces miniatures, and has a game, is actually a model company first and foremost...
you may only need one rulebook, but you will need at least a handful of minis...
the drive is always going to be selling more minis than books for every wargaming miniature company...
take Infinity for example, for 2nd ed. you had 3 books, but you needed an average of 10 minis...
of course CB is going to be more than happy to see you buy multiple factions...
in the end, you have 3 books, and 30 minis...
which brought the company more profit???
the only difference is, CB has pissed off, and driven away, less customers than GW...
selling minis is still CB's top priority...

honestly, i think the distinction between gamer and collector is needless, and unnecessarily divisive...
if you play, you are a collector, too...
an army is a collection of miniatures...
we are all collectors...

cheers
jah

Hmm, I actually went to the GW investors relations page and you are correct, they do include the gaming as part of the description of the hobby and their business model.

However, whenever questioned about the poor quality of their rules their response is "We are a model company, not a gaming company." They might not have always considered the gaming to be unimportant, but these days they do very much consider it secondary to the modeling.

That is the point here, if we were to take them at their word about being a modeling company and they theoretically stopped producing the game then they would be compared to scale model kits, and they would fail hard.

The motivation for collection is the distinction. As a gamer, I don't mind doing some collecting, but I'll only do it if I can out it to use in a game. A true collector cares not about utility, just about assembling something aesthetically pleasing.

 jah-joshua wrote:
why would we compare GW's kits to fine scale models???
it isn't even the same ballpark...

GW is a wargaming miniatures company, no matter how we slice it...
they make miniatures that are intended for use in wargames...
they also produce the rules for the games that the miniatures are intended to be used in...
they promote collecting, modeling, painting, and gaming as one unified hobby...

GW themselves, in all of their official literature (i.e. the Investors website) call themselves a miniature wargaming company, as in they make miniatures and war games to use those miniatures in...
nowhere that i can find do they say that they only make miniatures, and don't care about the games, yet people carry on like that is the case...

i would be very happy to see where the actual "we make models not games" quote comes from...
as for "we are a models company first" that is quite reasonable, though i don't know where that exact quote comes from either...
every company that produces miniatures, and has a game, is actually a model company first and foremost...
you may only need one rulebook, but you will need at least a handful of minis...
the drive is always going to be selling more minis than books for every wargaming miniature company...
take Infinity for example, for 2nd ed. you had 3 books, but you needed an average of 10 minis...
of course CB is going to be more than happy to see you buy multiple factions...
in the end, you have 3 books, and 30 minis...
which brought the company more profit???
the only difference is, CB has pissed off, and driven away, less customers than GW...
selling minis is still CB's top priority...

honestly, i think the distinction between gamer and collector is needless, and unnecessarily divisive...
if you play, you are a collector, too...
an army is a collection of miniatures...
we are all collectors...

cheers
jah

Well, they need to clue the CEO in on that then because he has this to say;

Strategy and objectives
Games Workshop's ambitions remain clear: to make the best fantasy miniatures in the world and sell them globally at a profit, and it
intends doing so forever. All of our decision making is focused on the long term success of Games Workshop, not short term gains.

Hmm, no mention of games in that first passage of the corporate strategy, other than the name of the company. Maybe I missed it elsewhere...

The first element - we make high quality miniatures. We understand that what we make is not for everyone, so to recruit and re-recruit
customers we are absolutely focused on making our models the best in the world. In order to continue to do that forever and to deliver a
decent return to our owners, we sell them for the price that we believe the investment in quality is worth.

Our customers tend to be teenage boys and male adults with some spare money to spend and time to enjoy hobbies. I'd like to think our
Hobby - modelling, painting, collecting, gaming - is for anyone. Our customers are found everywhere. Our job is to, on a day to day basis,
find them, commercially, wherever they are.

The second element is that we make fantasy miniatures based in our imaginary worlds. This gives us complete control over the imagery
and styles we use and complete ownership of the intellectual property. Aside from our core business, we are constantly looking to grow
our royalty income from opportunities to use our IP in other markets.

Ah, there it is. Miniatures are mentioned numerous times, as well as modelling and "hobby" but the word "game" appears one time in the entirety of the corporate Strategic Report. You know, the document created by the CEO that outlines what the business is going to be about in the next year.

If the CEO sees the company as primarily a model company, guess what that means....one guess, yeah you got it, it means they're primarily a model company.

Wait. Maybe this is a new thing, just brought in by Kevin Rountree. Hmm. Let's go back another year, under Kirby and see what he had to say.

This statement includes all the key elements of what we do and why we do it that way.

The first element is the high quality. We consciously and deliberately pursue a niche market model. Not everyone wants to collect
miniatures, but those that do demand high quality. All niche market customers are like that. It is what defines the niche — quality above
price. Our strategy is to make the best miniatures in the world.

The second element is that we will only ever make fantasy miniatures, and by that we mean those that are in our imaginary worlds. This
gives us complete control over the imagery and styles we use and complete ownership of the intellectual property.

The third element is the global nature of our business. Niche market customers are pretty thin on the ground and they need to be searched
out all over the world. The main growth in our business will be as a result of this geographic spread.

The fourth element is our desire to make money doing it. We want to be efficiently profitable, partly because we enjoy paying ourselves
and our owners well but even more because it allows us to keep going. We want to be in business for as long as possible and that means
we need to be profitable in both good times and bad.

There is no fifth element which is a shame as it would have allowed me to indulge in a lot of movie jokes and references.

"Game" not even mentioned once. So at least Kevin Rountree realizes that they make games...one supposes anyway.

Our market is a niche market made up of people who want to collect our miniatures. They tend to be male, middle-class, discerning
teenagers and adults. We do no demographic research, we have no focus groups, we do not ask the market what it wants. These things are
otiose in a niche.

I know you must have seen this quote before. It kind of rounds out what the Chairman, then Chairman and CEO, Kirby thinks their business is.

Again, if you think that a company can somehow ignore the leaders of the company, who apparently think "miniatures first and we might get around to this "game" thing that people go on about.", I think you might have never had corporate experience, which is fine, so let me clue you in. When the Chairman and CEO tell people that the company is focused on one aspect of their product line, employees follow that, if they want to keep their jobs.

 jah-joshua wrote:
why would we compare GW's kits to fine scale models???

Because we're talking about a hypothetical future where GW abandons the entire gaming aspect of the hobby and becomes a pure model company. And at that point they're competing with all of the other model companies, not other miniatures games.

@jono: i agree, they don't compare to Tamiya in either price or detail...

@Selym: why the need for a distinction in the hobby community???
i am not a fan of "us vs. them"...

@Agnosto: thanks for taking the time to port those quotes over...
my point is that nowhere in there does it say, "we make models not games", or "we are a models company first" (and thus don't care about the game)...
that is an inference made by the community...

yes, i had read all of those things before, especially the last one...
nowhere does it say that the customers who collect those miniatures do not play war games with them...


@Peregrine: i honestly hope that hypothetical future never comes...

cheers
jah

 jah-joshua wrote:
@Peregrine: i honestly hope that hypothetical future never comes...

So do I, but that's the premise the OP started this thread with.

 jah-joshua wrote:

@Selym: why the need for a distinction in the hobby community???
i am not a fan of "us vs. them"...

Its not an us vs anyone situation, its distinguishing between two hobby preferences. One wouldn't be overly troubled by GW not producing rules, and the other would be totally routed. We're just not the same