Blood Angels + Vanilla Marine Allies; Winning Combo or a Waste of Points?

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**Bartali**

I'm not going to go into too much detail - I haven't played BA since the new codex came out after all.

However, it's a bit of a stretch to call the Frag Cannon 'incredible'. You'll kill around three marines or Eldar Jetbikes on the turn it drops, after which it dies.
At best, it's 'ok'. BA Dreads also desperately need the update the SM ones got.

Also probably a bit of a stretch to call DC amazing. They need the charge to be effective and are fragile at T4/3+/FNP (never thought I'd call that fragile, but hey Apococrap 40K).

**Martel732**

th3maninblak wrote:
Ok, response to all this.

1. Priests are great. But you're right, you need to find a good unit to put them in. Sanguinary Guard are the obvious choice, but large units of assault marines (particularly 2-4 of them with double CAD) work very well too.

2. Our librarians are SUPER fighty. Between baal or flesh tearers strike force and quickening, they beat face really well. And the Sanguinary discipline is pretty baller. Mephiston is worth mentioning as well. He's a house.

3. Dante is incredible. Nuff said. Str7 ap2 on the charge, hit and run, mobile, durable, and a great warlord trait. All for less than captain america.

4. False. Sanguinary guard are better against eldar than death co are, particularly with a priest, as they are much more resilient to torrenting. Death co are the better unit though.

5. Death company are amazing. This kind of goes without saying. 10 with 2 fists and a character will run over almost everything in the game. 5 with a fist is great for MSU.

6. The frag cannon is INCREDIBLE. 2 shots from a str6 rending template? Please.

7. Heavy flamers on tacs is sick. 10 dudes with 2 hand flamers, a flamer, and a heavy flamer in a pod will roast almost anything. 2 hand flamers and a heavy flamer in a razorback is also cool. You shouldn't take more than your minimum troops anyways.

8. 4 melta shots in a pod for 135 points is amazing. Even 10 dudes with an axe and 2 melta guns and a priest is also good in Baal Strike force or Flesh Tearers strike force is pretty good at killing stuff.

Turn all your enthusiasm levels down about five notches and I'll agree. I consider Dante bad and Sanguinary guard bad, and the rest is okay to below average. And too bad DC won't run over the things I REALLY want them to. Your flamer load out won't do anything units in a transport.

**th3maninblak**

The frag cannon having rending throws the math way off. Only killing 3 MEQs is on the low end of everything I've had mine do.

And Martel, we've had the argument about Dante before. I couldn't disagree with you more strongly on your opinion of him.

Transports are an issue, I suppose. But more the wave serpent or chimera variety. I keep telling people to run Baal Preds if they're having trouble with battle companies or other parking lots of av10-11 vehicles. Works like a charm for me.

**Martel732**

I still don't see how you could possibly think you get a low slot and 220 pts out of dante. He's a really bad low because he's only melee in a shooting game. Think of it another way: what problems does he fix for the ba? The answer is none. He's not good vs any top tier unit in the game.

**Remtek**

5 Sanguinary guard and a priest cost roughly the same as 9 DC with 2 power weapons, so they are actually not that much better vs torrent fire. Vs ap2/1 SG are quite poor, but vs Eldar none of them will be in combat until turn 3 unless you are playing maelstrom. And many tournament Eldar lists run warp spiders which rend.

Main issue with SG is they die like flies in close combat vs assault lists and grav shooting. Love them for fluffy games.

The heavy flamer is pretty sweet, but i think the hand flamers are terrible.

I ran melta pods when the new book hit, really don't like them. They feel so situational, i much prefer putting melta on bikes and attack bikes still.

The fragcannon is still decent, but don't think its amazing.

**Slayer-Fan123**

th3maninblak wrote:
Ok, response to all this.

1. Priests are great. But you're right, you need to find a good unit to put them in. Sanguinary Guard are the obvious choice, but large units of assault marines (particularly 2-4 of them with double CAD) work very well too.

2. Our librarians are SUPER fighty. Between baal or flesh tearers strike force and quickening, they beat face really well. And the Sanguinary discipline is pretty baller. Mephiston is worth mentioning as well. He's a house.

3. Dante is incredible. Nuff said. Str7 ap2 on the charge, hit and run, mobile, durable, and a great warlord trait. All for less than captain america.

4. False. Sanguinary guard are better against eldar than death co are, particularly with a priest, as they are much more resilient to torrenting. Death co are the better unit though.

5. Death company are amazing. This kind of goes without saying. 10 with 2 fists and a character will run over almost everything in the game. 5 with a fist is great for MSU.

6. The frag cannon is INCREDIBLE. 2 shots from a str6 rending template? Please.

7. Heavy flamers on tacs is sick. 10 dudes with 2 hand flamers, a flamer, and a heavy flamer in a pod will roast almost anything. 2 hand flamers and a heavy flamer in a razorback is also cool. You shouldn't take more than your minimum troops anyways.

8. 4 melta shots in a pod for 135 points is amazing. Even 10 dudes with an axe and 2 melta guns and a priest is also good in Baal Strike force or Flesh Tearers strike force is pretty good at killing stuff.

Guard are NOT better than Death Company. Death Company don't need a babysitter and are going to tank wounds better for the points. It's that simple.

**th3maninblak**

Notice how I said death co are the better unit? I'm well aware of this. I usually only field SG with Dante and a Priest. Death co find their way into essentially all of my lists.

And I still haven't figured out how none of you ever make it into combat with anything ever. I do all the time.

**mathaius90**

th3maninblak wrote:
Notice how I said death co are the better unit? I'm well aware of this. I usually only field SG with Dante and a Priest. Death co find their way into essentially all of my lists.

And I still haven't figured out how none of you ever make it into combat with anything ever. I do all the time.

At this point i think it's a local meta difference. What armies do you face usually?

**Slayer-Fan123**

th3maninblak wrote:
Notice how I said death co are the better unit? I'm well aware of this. I usually only field SG with Dante and a Priest. Death co find their way into essentially all of my lists.

And I still haven't figured out how none of you ever make it into combat with anything ever. I do all the time.

Mostly because something is durable enough or fast enough to actually make it to combat (Wraiths, TWC, Wraithknights, even my Necron Warrior to ensure you don't get the charge instead thanks to Relentless) or the unit kinda doesn't make itself easy to catch (Scatterbikes, Wraithknights, Riptide, etc).
Quite frankly your opponent has to be brain-dead to have those caught in melee all the time.

**Martel732**

th3maninblak wrote:
Notice how I said death co are the better unit? I'm well aware of this. I usually only field SG with Dante and a Priest. Death co find their way into essentially all of my lists.

And I still haven't figured out how none of you ever make it into combat with anything ever. I do all the time.

Because some turns I'm taking 70 armor saves. The same firepower can wreck around four Rhinos in the same turn.

**th3maninblak**

There are a good many eldar players around here, though only 1 or 2 of them play a lot of bikes. Daemons are super common at my FLGS though, including 3 guys who usually play straight up flying circus (and one with a brass scorpion). Marines are probably the biggest army here though, with a couple battle companies and at least 2 drop-centurion players. This is part of the reason that even though I LOVE my sanguinary guard, Ive swapped to death company and usually have at least 1 HQ with the Veritas Vitae, as grav is way too common. With 2 rolls on strategic (even without a reroll) my odds of getting night fighting or stealth in ruins are pretty good, so a 3+ cover save isn't too hard to come by. The infiltration warlord trait is good too.

Tables are only so big, and units can only run so far from things that move 12+d6 inches a turn. And if I'm getting assaulted by necron warriors EVER, I should just hang up my BA wings.

**Slayer-Fan123**

It'll happen if they don't want you to get the charge.
Relentless + Ghost Ark being open topped means it can happen. I charge all the time with them knowing how durable they are when I find it advantageous and able to do so.

**Martel732**

I think a lot of ba players haven't been exposed to the full range of horribleness all tbe other codices can execute.

**Clan Lykos**

Martel732 wrote:
I think a lot of ba players haven't been exposed to the full range of horribleness all tbe other codices can execute.

Question: Since you basically condemn rhinos to be mince meat vs a lot of the power armies out there right now, why do you run so many rhinos? They only seem to be mildly effective against an alpha strike list like skyhammer. Against Eldar or Tau they are will get hull-pointed out ASAP.

**Martel732**

Clan Lykos wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I think a lot of ba players haven't been exposed to the full range of horribleness all tbe other codices can execute.

Question: Since you basically condemn rhinos to be mince meat vs a lot of the power armies out there right now, why do you run so many rhinos? They only seem to be mildly effective against an alpha strike list like skyhammer. Against Eldar or Tau they are will get hull-pointed out ASAP.

Because it's still the best I can do with BA. DS shenanigans won't work, we don't have any MCs, and jump infantry die a turn sooner than meched up infantry. Rhinos are actually quite effective against Skyhammer if you hide the rest of your list behind the Rhinos. The only units getting skyhammered are Rhinos and anything they demech that they can get LOS on around the Rhino. Since grav conveniently can never explode a Rhino. also, BA Rhinos are 15pt/hp which seems more acceptable than other marine vehicles.

I do have some infantry lists with drop elements and a bunch of infiltrated CC scouts. The idea of that list is no AV whatsoever.

**th3maninblak**

Infiltrating CC scouts are cool, but honestly I've gotten a ton of mileage out of my tri flamer squads in razorbacks. Might go back to a couple 10 man units of close combat scouts at some point though.

**Martel732**

They'd be cooler if they were WS 4 BS 4.

I find hand flamers to be truly awful weapons. I could see combi-flamer/heavy flamer, though. But I prefer a melta team in a TL HF razorback if I'm going that route.

**McNinja**

Martel732 wrote:
They'd be cooler if they were WS 4 BS 4.

I find hand flamers to be truly awful weapons. I could see combi-flamer/heavy flamer, though. But I prefer a melta team in a TL HF razorback if I'm going that route.

scouts could definitely use the boost, and I've always wondered why hand flamers even exist - they seem like such awful weapons that I'm surprised they're ever brought up, much less one of the main points of the Fire Hawks (maybe? One of the FW chapters) chapter tactics.

**th3maninblak**

Scouts in BSF are still worth it, as an 11 point model who is str5 and init5 on the charge with 3 attacks is pretty awesome.

And hand flamers are really only good because they can be doubled up. 2 str3 hits per model passed over by the template ends up being a lot of hits, especially when paired with a heavy flamer. I like it over the combi flamer because it can be used multiple times and for 1 more points you get a 2nd template.