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 kronk wrote:
Episode 8 is the middle act in a three act story arc, so I'm expecting it to be super dark.

Luke dying, someone loses a hand, an origin revealed, the IRS imposing back taxes on the Falcon...

I don't think Luke will die in Episode 8. I think that will come in Episode 9.

And I think someone will lose a leg, to break the cycle of hand-losing

 insaniak wrote:
Why can't she be both?

Great question! She could have began the story as a rogue who gradually developed friendships that opened her to something bigger and more noble than saving her own skin.

Ah forget it, that would have never worked.

Jin seemed like a rather typical application of what someone is on the surface isn't always what they really are.

Seemed more like a rather typical application of lazy writing/script suturing to me.

 Manchu wrote:
Seemed more like a rather typical application of lazy writing/script suturing to me.

This may well be true, but some of us have a more flexible suspension of disbelief.

 Galef wrote:
some of us have a more flexible suspension of disbelief

Circus-worthy flexibility, apparently. I don't blame anyone for saying, hey it was a neat-looking movie. Very true, it looked great. And that's it.

 Manchu wrote:

 Galef wrote:
some of us have a more flexible suspension of disbelief

Circus-worthy flexibility, apparently. I don't blame anyone for saying, hey it was a neat-looking movie. Very true, it looked great. And that's it.

Are you referring to Rogue One that received 85% on the Rotten Tomato Meter from Film Reviews (not fan)?

 Manchu wrote:
Circus-worthy flexibility, apparently.

Maybe we're just not looking to pick it apart.

The character development in R1 is threadbare, but it is there. Cynical rebel left behind by her mentor only goes along with the true believer to find her dad, ends up feeling motivated to actually do something because hell if her dad can resist the Empire while directly under its thumb, why can't she?

I will agree though that the scene where she lectures the Alliance leaders on hope was really cheesy and I think the film would have been better without the obligatory "hero lectures everyone else on X" scene all action movies seem hellbent on including

 Frazzled wrote:
received 85% on the Rotten Tomato Meter

... and Ghostbusters (2016) received 73% ...

I will continue to rely on forming my own opinion. YMMV.

 LordofHats wrote:
Maybe we're just not looking to pick it apart.

"All the characters are underdeveloped, boring, and unlikable" is not picking a movie apart. It's true that I'm not giving R1 a pass "because dark SW!" but I'm also not nitpicking here. Having at least one engaging character with a strong arc is just baseline.* Anakin had a better developed arc in EpII than Jyn in R1.

* in TFA, that character was Kylo Ren

"All the characters are underdeveloped, boring, and unlikable" is not picking a movie apart. It's true that I'm not giving R1 a pass "because dark SW!" but I'm also not nitpicking here. Having at least one engaging character with a strong arc is just baseline.* Anakin had a better developed arc in EpII than Jyn in R1.

Thats opinion, and yours. Others felt that they were just fine for an ensemble film. Yo

* in TFA, that character was Kylo Ren

HAHAHAHAAH Ren was another insipid Jedi. You could have dropped in Anakin and it would have been the same, but more lame BECAUSE WE'VE SEEN IT FOR THE LAST THREE MOVIES.

Dear, God, thank you for giving me the ability to just enjoy a movie.

-SlavetoDorkness

Opinion? More like conclusion. If I want a character to make a 180 over the course of a half hour, I need to write a damn convincing half hour of development or at least seed it in the exposition.

RE: Kylo ... citing Anakin sort of demonstrates that you dont get the character since they have opposite arcs.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Dear, God, thank you for giving me the ability to just enjoy a movie.

Like Phantom Menace?

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Dear, God, thank you for giving me the ability to just enjoy a movie.

-SlavetoDorkness

Its just that kind of spirit that has no place on the internet!

(Again, Lego Batman-excellent! slam some bourbons and enjoy!)

RE: Kylo ... citing Anakin sort of demonstrates that you dont get the character since they have opposite arcs.
Emo jedi with daddy issues...check. Pretty big wussy...check...waste of a good actor...check (esp. TFA) being taught by bad guy...check

Just give me a half decent bad guy. Thats all I am asking for. And of course, chocolate.

 Frazzled wrote:
Just give me a half decent bad guy.

Actually R1 had a half-decent bad guy! But it was like he was in a comedy film and all the jokes were on him.

 Manchu wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Just give me a half decent bad guy.

Actually R1 had a half-decent bad guy! But it was like he was in a comedy film and all the jokes were on him.

(Lets leave out ghost Peter Cushing as I have ethical issues about that. )

Badguy one was meh, I'll give you that.
Badguy Two however was...epic.


TFA bad guys:
*Ren whatevs bro.
*Fleet Commander Bob-I liked him. He wasn't taking from no momma's boy jedi.
*Gold armor chick...did that cut out her entire roll or something. It seems like she was supposed to be a bigger deal or something that was missed in the final film cut. I'd like to see more of her character.

I liked Krennic. I thought his character was a great portrayal of what being a high-ranking officer in the Empire is really all about, which we have never seen before (well, just glimpses in the DS1 conference scene). With Krennic, we got to see a very convincing depiction of ruthless, amoral ambition.

 Manchu wrote:
I liked Krennic. I thought his character was a great portrayal of what being a high-ranking officer in the Empire is really all about, which we have never seen before (well, just glimpses in the DS1 conference scene). With Krennic, we got to see a very convincing depiction of ruthless, amoral ambition.

good points there.

 Manchu wrote:
I liked Krennic. I thought his character was a great portrayal of what being a high-ranking officer in the Empire is really all about, which we have never seen before (well, just glimpses in the DS1 conference scene). With Krennic, we got to see a very convincing depiction of ruthless, amoral ambition.

Especially good example when he then got screwed by another guy who was even more ruthless and amoral.

 Manchu wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Dear, God, thank you for giving me the ability to just enjoy a movie.

Like Phantom Menace?

For what it's worth, I enjoy Phantom Menace.




And yes, totally agree on Krennic... he was the perfect villain for that story.

the things I rather liked about Krennic was that 1 he had his own little story going on which gave him weight, and 2 they totally nailed how dictatorships handle promotions and retirements (with bullets blaster bolts and death lasers) XD

 Compel wrote:
He's completely, 100% always recastable and has already been established as being, say, 100 years old, in the films themselves. That's without going into EU stuff.

Depends how old he was in Episode 3. There's 20 years between the PT and OT, and I think 25 between the OT and ST?. Including the time during the OT, that's a few years. So that's 50 years on top of his age at the end of episode 3. I'd say more like 70 by the time of TFA.

http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2017-03-09/looks-like-we-now-know-the-three-little-words-luke-skywalker-first-says-to-rey-in-star-wars-episode-viii-the-last-jedi



spoilers just in case ...





little bit more detail at the link.


.. was hoping for " Han did what ?!" but there you go.

I think people are looking at Rogue One wrong when it comes to character development.

For the first time in Star Wars history, we have a group of main characters we know are 100% expendable within that one film (yes, we knew the Jedi would fall, but had three movies and five TV series to get to know them).

Instead, Jyn & Co represent us in the Star Wars galaxy. Fairly average Joes disgruntled at the Empire's heavy handed nature, and eventually determining to do something about it - especially when it's made clear just how ridiculously far The Empire is willing to go to obtain absolute dominion over the Galaxy.

We see them daring to rise up at the very zenith of the The Empire's might - because as of Episode IV, it's pretty much all downhill for The Empire.

Think about Tarkin in A New Hope. He targets Alderaan over Dantooine (where apparently the Rebels are based) to make an example to the wider galaxy. And it's not mere fleet bombardment. Oh no. It's a bold statement - the only flaw is the Death Stars later destruction.

See, Alderaan revealed The Empire's biggest beat stick - do as we say. Fall in line. If you refuse, we will destroy your planet, and you will collectively be able to nothing about it.

So confident was Palpatine that upon the successful testfire of the Death Star, the Senate is dissolved, stripping away the lip service that had been paid to democracy. Fear of the Death Star was to replace that illusion - an absolute Iron Fist of authority.

And then? Just when things seem darkest, The Empire receives a bloodied nose at the hands of a very small Rebel fleet, consisting entirely of small, one men craft.

At that point, the Emperor's true madness has been revealed - and the stick he was going to use to control the Galaxy brutally removed.

That's not a good position to be in.

Right. I'm waffling now....

And that's all because Jyn & Co saw what was coming, and did something about it - that's impressive propaganda - made all the more impressive because at that point Empire vs Rebels was a scale way beyond David and Goliath.

Rogue One adds so much the mythos of the Rebellion. Once the Death Star was revealed and lost, The Empire lost any real credible pretence at being 'the good guys' - suddenly the wider Rebellion (if not cells like Saw's) seems entirely justified - The Empire must be resisted, fought against, dismantled.

And that ties in beautifully with the events in the Aftermath books - where it takes pains to show Mon Mothma understand the fledgling New Republic can't just take up the arms left by The Empire, lest their entire effort simply be seen as a power grab, and not liberation from the Imperial jackboot.

Yikes hard to think of the R1 cast as fairly average joes when all of them except Bodhi are somewhere between "righteous badass" and "super hero" levels of powerful - all the moreso when you consider that every single Imperial character in the movie is presented as incompetent (even Vader's big scene features him failing). But sure if we just overlook the sheer dumb of R1 and say "okay well that's a thing that happened" then yes stealing the plans for the DS1 was a helluva coup for the Rebellion. And apparently the Rebellion was mostly made up of wishy washy pundits at that point, so the militant hardliners among them were politically desperate for such a miracle (as portrayed in the film, with Admiral Not-Ackbar ignoring the Council's decision). I actually think this is not to R1's credit as the DS1 plan heist now overshadows the actual destruction of the DS1 in terms of "epicness" - Mountain Dew Xtreme style ...

But you implicitly raise a pretty interesting point about the DS1 ... Let's first of all go back to the simpler time before R1 existed. From Tarkin's POV, the Emperor was so confident in the awesome power of the DS1 that he dissolved the Senate before demonstrating its power - which from the ANH script was not only controversial but unthinkable, even among Imperial staff officers. And then the DS1 was destroyed basically immediately after its initial demonstration. Now, we all know from RotJ that the Emperor already had begun construction on the even bigger DS2 underway. But just thinking about this in terms of ANH, that is a lot of political eggs to put in one surprisingly vulnerable basket. Just based on what we know from ANH alone, the reckless arrogance of Tarkin and the Emperor could have sunk the whole Empire then and there. In other words, ANH could actually stand pretty confidently on its own as a complete story.

And maybe that is a better story, honestly, as it demonstrates a triumph of actual plucky average joes over the bloated militaristic behemoth of the Empire. If the destruction of the DS1 had spurred a successful coup by the Senate against the Empire, Mon Mothma's demilitarization conundrum would never have existed at all - because conventional military power would have been discredited at Yavin IV ... rather than vindicated at Endor.

I was going to say that the one thing ANH doesn't show is an "average Luke" saving the day. But taking that film on its own, it does. There's not much, if anything, in that film alone that suggests the Force is something that only a few special people can use. For all we know anyone could have learned to do what Luke did - it's just that he was the one to do it.

OK, there's Vader's "The Force is strong in this one", but that's only by comparison to the other pilots he's just destroyed, who had -no awareness of the Force.

And then the third one goes and spoils that.

Eh, Luke is guided by Obi-wan and they previously mention that no targeting computer could make the shot (backed up by someone failing to hit with a targeting computer). Luke's necessary and makes it seem like the Death Star wasn't really incompetently built (because with a Force-sensitive the shot couldn't have been made).


As for R1, I found it enjoyable but the Empire was too incompetent in it. They get thrashed at every turn up until the very end and even then the Rebels are leaving with what they came for. For all everyone said the Empire was shown to be fearsome it really wasn't. The Empire Strikes Back showed it's power much better and for me at least was more emotive. Plus it means the Empire knew that a traitor had been working helping build the Death Star but didn't bother to check for the sabotage.

Yeah, but what I mean is that in ANH, Luke uses the Force because he's been trained (albeit briefly) to do so. In that film, it seems like being a Jedi is something anyone can learn to do with enough effort. Unlike in Episodes 1-3 and 6 onwards, where it's something that special family lines can do.

Episode 4 is a triumph of meritocracy, not aristocracy.

i was always interested in expanding upon how the staff back on the rebel base felt when Luke turned off his targeting computer.

"...Yeah, it's alright, the voice of the dead kinda crazy guy I briefly knew for maybe a couple of days is telling me too !"

...."....oh good .. - better start the evacuation..."



Guessing Chewbaccas' medal was apparently the first thing they packed

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
it seems like being a Jedi is something anyone can learn to do with enough effort. Unlike in Episodes 1-3 and 6 onwards, where it's something that special family lines can do.

Really excellent point! I very much wish it had stayed this way.

Well, anyone CAN get and make use of some of the training.
(General Grievous in the PT is an example of this. Dooku was said to have trained him somewhat - but then he added the quad lightsabre mode to the spinning propeller (Both Anakin and Obi-wan use the spinny lightsabre attack mode in ep3's final battle) form. Just like any shmoe can use a lightsabre (Han) like a sword.

ONLY a force sensitive will get the best out of it (deflecting shots, etc).

But honestly, with all the stretching and reaching about what the title of ep8 means, Star Wars yoga, we May as well be doing.