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I was under the impression that Lascannons were used on voidcraft to shoot down other voidcraft ine dog fighting.(not against capital ships)

 Bobthehero wrote:
It is mentionned that it is the front armor (generally the thickest armor, bar a few examples like the Minotaur), it also gives most of the techno-bable/made up materials that compose the armor, then gives the 300mm comparision.

It isn't just a matter of 'front' armour. Armour thickness varies widely from spot to spot and it matters how you measure it. Look at the armour in this diagram; depending on which part you are talking about and the angle you assume the attack is coming from you could say it's frontal armour is anything from under two inches to over ten inches.

Slopped armor was one of the great tank renovations of WW2

 Perfect Organism wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
It is mentionned that it is the front armor (generally the thickest armor, bar a few examples like the Minotaur), it also gives most of the techno-bable/made up materials that compose the armor, then gives the 300mm comparision.

It isn't just a matter of 'front' armour. Armour thickness varies widely from spot to spot and it matters how you measure it. Look at the armour in this diagram; depending on which part you are talking about and the angle you assume the attack is coming from you could say it's frontal armour is anything from under two inches to over ten inches.

I am well aware of that, thank you very much. I don't think I he FW author is, however and he most likely put front armor as a stand in for thickest.

KayTwo wrote:
Slopped armor was one of the great tank renovations of WW2

Since before ww1..... the whole concept of sloped armour is incredibly old, even being used on ww1 tanks and before tanks were even a thing (such as confederate ironclads).

Put simply it's easier to make 'boxy' tank and it gives more internal space, thus many tank designers to this day still making 'boxy' armoured vehicles.

Sloped armor is a concept far older than guns. It's just far more important with guns in use.

 Bobthehero wrote:
It is mentionned that it is the front armor (generally the thickest armor, bar a few examples like the Minotaur), it also gives most of the techno-bable/made up materials that compose the armor, then gives the 300mm comparision.

As for the unit of measurement, you could make the same argument for pretty much every words considering the language wont be the same in far future, might as well pretend that the conventionnal steel meant wood and that up means down if we're going to twist language like that.

All the sources are "in-universe". And context matters. 300mm steel are not 300mm steel in RL either. There are hundreds of different kinds of steel alloys, with their penetration resistance furthermore influenced by manufacturing methods. When talking about steel in context with armor in RL, its obvious that its meant to be rolled homongenous armour steel, as thats standard today. When hypothetically RHA would be replaced in future by some even better steel alloy, this would over time become the new "steel" in context of armoured fighting vehicles.

Nobody today would give a "steel" thickness for matters of penetration on armoured vehicles and by "steel" refer to an off-the-shelve construction steel.

In-game ranges shouldn't be taken as anything more than a balance construct.

Lascannons and other similarly ranged weapons will have ranges of several kilometers. But the theoretical range of a weapon and the actual effective range are very different.

An M-16 has a maximum effective range of 3600 meters. You can theoretically shoot a target 3.6 kilometers away and have it drop dead. Realistically, you'll never hit anything at that range. So the effective range of the M-16 is significantly shorter, more like 500 meters. And most firefights will take place at even shorter ranges because cover allows it.

Weapons generally have a much longer effective range than they end up getting used at. Simply because your targeting system will not be able to track a target at those maximum effective ranges.

So a Lascannon probably has a maximum effective range(due to diffusion) measured in dozens or even hundreds of kilometers(depending on atmospheric characteristics). But a human operator isn't going to be able to hit anything farther than a couple kilometers, and likely less due to line of sight considerations. On an aircraft or vehicle with targeting computers, it can fire much further. And in space its probably got an effective range of hundreds to thousands of kilometers, but again its down to "can you actually hit a target at that range?". And once you are in space and dealing with hundreds of kilometers, the speed of light actually matters because your target will not be where you can see it.

KayTwo wrote:
I was under the impression that Lascannons were used on voidcraft to shoot down other voidcraft ine dog fighting.(not against capital ships)

it is. The Fury voidfighter carries ten of the things.

Effective range of a laser in a vacuum is far greater, though.

note that yes, a lasgun was 100m and a lascannon 300m in dark heredy rpg, but thats not its "range", just the distance at which you start getting penalties to hit. A character with Marksman, for example, can fire at up to 1.2 km without penalties....

 Melissia wrote:

HexHammer wrote:
SM does have a indirect weapon, like WhirlWind.

Which is nice and all, but we're not talking about the fething whirlwind. The thread is about the Lascannon.

We just got a bit side tracked, but still it doesn't make any sense to me, that SM got such overall short range on their stuff, nothing heavy long ranged, it would suggest it's easy to lay a trap and just fight SM from a distance, even if they had the option of getting IG support. Especially with all those table top stand offs, just don't engage SM in close combat, but nuke them down from afar.

HexHammer wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

HexHammer wrote:
SM does have a indirect weapon, like WhirlWind.

Which is nice and all, but we're not talking about the fething whirlwind. The thread is about the Lascannon.

We just got a bit side tracked, but still it doesn't make any sense to me, that SM got such overall short range on their stuff, nothing heavy long ranged, it would suggest it's easy to lay a trap and just fight SM from a distance, even if they had the option of getting IG support. Especially with all those table top stand offs, just don't engage SM in close combat, but nuke them down from afar.

Except the whole thing with the Space Marine way of war is that generally you either don't know they're even in-system until the first drop pod lands on the palace lawn, or they can see your ambush from orbit and are redeploying to counter it from there.
The game does not really represent this at all, except for the Chapter Master having the ortillery strike.

HexHammer wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

HexHammer wrote:
SM does have a indirect weapon, like WhirlWind.

Which is nice and all, but we're not talking about the fething whirlwind. The thread is about the Lascannon.

We just got a bit side tracked, but still it doesn't make any sense to me, that SM got such overall short range on their stuff, nothing heavy long ranged, it would suggest it's easy to lay a trap and just fight SM from a distance, even if they had the option of getting IG support. Especially with all those table top stand offs, just don't engage SM in close combat, but nuke them down from afar.

In all honesty your issues with SM artillery has already been answered.

Whirlwinds are really for close-range, pinpoint strikes. After all, their spaceships are bristling with bombardment cannon, for removing pesky obstacles like fortress walls and small mountains.

1st edition 40k addressed the effective/maximum range thing with an optional rule; all weapons could fire at 10x their max listed range at an additional -1 (or more, perhaps) to hit. I don't think that "extreme range" rule applied to support missiles, which had a range of "from the edge of the star system".

Lexicanum puts a Basilisk Cannon as having a range of ~15Km, and tabletop 360". If we then take into account that Lascannons have a range of 48", you could take that as meaning a Lascannon has a range of 2Km, which sounds reasonable enough. Of course, this is just one, very rudimentary and highly inaccurate, theory, as it doesn't scale well with other weapons. For example this would put Missile Launchers and Autocannons at a range of 2km, which sounds fine for Autocannons but a bit unbelievable for a shoulder-fired missile. Bolters, lasguns and similar at 1km, while a Pusle Rifle would be 1.25Km. This isn't too unbelievable, given modern assault rifles such as the M16. At least according to The American Rifleman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_rifle#Range_and_accuracy) the lethal range is around 900m, even though the effective range is only 460m. Would also put the Battle Cannon and Railgun at 3KM, and the Volcano Cannon at 5km, which sounds just right.

It gets extremely wonky for shorter weapons (Most pistols and other 12" weapons like Meltaguns would have a range of 500m, and a Melta Pistol with a range of 6" would be 250m). I think most of the longer ranged weapons scale well with each other as a representation of their real distance, but like I said, the shorter it would get would more difficult due to the abstract nature of what 6" means in 40k. That said, if you take 6", the normal walking distance of a given model, and equate that to 250m, that in itself is fairly reasonable, but the weapons is maybe stretching it just too far.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Baldeagle91 wrote:

HexHammer wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

HexHammer wrote:
SM does have a indirect weapon, like WhirlWind.

Which is nice and all, but we're not talking about the fething whirlwind. The thread is about the Lascannon.

We just got a bit side tracked, but still it doesn't make any sense to me, that SM got such overall short range on their stuff, nothing heavy long ranged, it would suggest it's easy to lay a trap and just fight SM from a distance, even if they had the option of getting IG support. Especially with all those table top stand offs, just don't engage SM in close combat, but nuke them down from afar.

In all honesty your issues with SM artillery has already been answered.

Because Space Marines aren't meant to fight from distance? They drop pod or teleport as close as feasible and go for a lightning assault. So yeah, you don't nuke them from orbit because they are coming down from orbit to feth you up from 500 yards. An ideal SM assault goes like this:

Call for assistance from nearby Hive World
Warp-jump over
Inspiring speech from Captain
Load into drop pods, fired at 500Kmph at the enemy
Hopefully land on some Orks
Come out swinging in the heart of enemy territory
Destroy their supply lines, fortifications and artillery within the hour
Advance on the enemy leader and bodyguard
Cut down the bodyguard and watch your glorious leader behead the Warboss in single combat
Recieve a victory feast and be home in time for evening prayers.


So yeah, they don't use static long range artillery because it goes against everything they aim to be doing.

HexHammer wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

HexHammer wrote:
SM does have a indirect weapon, like WhirlWind.

Which is nice and all, but we're not talking about the fething whirlwind. The thread is about the Lascannon.

We just got a bit side tracked, but still it doesn't make any sense to me, that SM got such overall short range on their stuff, nothing heavy long ranged, it would suggest it's easy to lay a trap and just fight SM from a distance, even if they had the option of getting IG support. Especially with all those table top stand offs, just don't engage SM in close combat, but nuke them down from afar.

Space Marines are not forces who engage in long range static warfare.

They're elite special forces which deploy rapidly and engage the enemy from short ranges. Standard procedure for Space Marines is to drop pod/use thunderhawks to rapidly insert into the target area, neutralize enemy targets of importance, and then immediately extract. They're never going to get drawn into long engagements if they can help it.

 Grey Templar wrote:

HexHammer wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

HexHammer wrote:
SM does have a indirect weapon, like WhirlWind.

Which is nice and all, but we're not talking about the fething whirlwind. The thread is about the Lascannon.

We just got a bit side tracked, but still it doesn't make any sense to me, that SM got such overall short range on their stuff, nothing heavy long ranged, it would suggest it's easy to lay a trap and just fight SM from a distance, even if they had the option of getting IG support. Especially with all those table top stand offs, just don't engage SM in close combat, but nuke them down from afar.

Space Marines are not forces who engage in long range static warfare.

They're elite special forces which deploy rapidly and engage the enemy from short ranges. Standard procedure for Space Marines is to drop pod/use thunderhawks to rapidly insert into the target area, neutralize enemy targets of importance, and then immediately extract. They're never going to get drawn into long engagements if they can help it.

Chapter Marines....

Legionary Marines however, while still special forces, where designed to do pretty much every aspect of warfare, including pitched battles and long range warfare.

It's the main reason during the great crusade and horus heresy that space marine legions came equipped with their own basilisks and medusas.

 Baldeagle91 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

HexHammer wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

HexHammer wrote:
SM does have a indirect weapon, like WhirlWind.

Which is nice and all, but we're not talking about the fething whirlwind. The thread is about the Lascannon.

We just got a bit side tracked, but still it doesn't make any sense to me, that SM got such overall short range on their stuff, nothing heavy long ranged, it would suggest it's easy to lay a trap and just fight SM from a distance, even if they had the option of getting IG support. Especially with all those table top stand offs, just don't engage SM in close combat, but nuke them down from afar.

Space Marines are not forces who engage in long range static warfare.

They're elite special forces which deploy rapidly and engage the enemy from short ranges. Standard procedure for Space Marines is to drop pod/use thunderhawks to rapidly insert into the target area, neutralize enemy targets of importance, and then immediately extract. They're never going to get drawn into long engagements if they can help it.

Chapter Marines....

Legionary Marines however, while still special forces, where designed to do pretty much every aspect of warfare, including pitched battles and long range warfare.

It's the main reason during the great crusade and horus heresy that space marine legions came equipped with their own basilisks and medusas.

The Legions were dissolved circa M32 into the chapters though, and Medusas and other long range siege weapons were removed from their arsenal so they couldn't do another Heresy. The Adeptus Astartes of today are close range specialists.

 Baldeagle91 wrote:

KayTwo wrote:
Slopped armor was one of the great tank renovations of WW2

Since before ww1..... the whole concept of sloped armour is incredibly old, even being used on ww1 tanks and before tanks were even a thing (such as confederate ironclads).

Put simply it's easier to make 'boxy' tank and it gives more internal space, thus many tank designers to this day still making 'boxy' armoured vehicles.

I think it was mere chance that they made sloped armor and not intentionally, because the german WW2 Tiger Tank didn't have sloped armor and the germans was very diligent people, they made such high quality that their tanks took too much time to manufacture, compared to the US and UK tanks that was garbage. It was the Russians that invented the concept of sloped armor and only after the east front war with Germany vs Russia, then the germans begang to make sloped armor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deadshot wrote:
The Legions were dissolved circa M32 into the chapters though, and Medusas and other long range siege weapons were removed from their arsenal so they couldn't do another Heresy. The Adeptus Astartes of today are close range specialists.

Ah! That answer it fully! Very satisfying, thanks!

Sloped armor existed prior to WW2, but it wasn't really seriously employed prior to it. It wasn't till it was proven to be a major advantage instead of a small one that they employed it everywhere.

I'm pretty sure there is a line about las cannon ranges in the BL book Calgars Seige. I recall reading the line and then remembering this thread and then continuing to read on..

Can't remember what is said for the life of me...

48", obviously.
On a more serious note, theorhetically they should have infinite range due to being a light based weapon, but the intensity (power) of the shot would lessen over distance.
So if you are a foot from the lascannon - complete disintegration
Several hundred kilometers away - slight tan

That's how I understand how laser like weapons work anyway.
A physicist would probably give a better answer

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
48", obviously.
On a more serious note, theorhetically they should have infinite range due to being a light based weapon, but the intensity (power) of the shot would lessen over distance.
So if you are a foot from the lascannon - complete disintegration
Several hundred kilometers away - slight tan

That's how I understand how laser like weapons work anyway.
A physicist would probably give a better answer

A high powered torch would be more akin to your example. They disperse light over a distance, whereas laser focus it as far as it possibly goes. That's why laser pens are dangerous to aim at aircraft, as the beam is as blinding and dangerous regardless of distance (assuming there are not environmental factors like smoke or dust). However, 40K doesn't work with "ideal" and "maximum" ranges, it simply states a number. I like to think the number represents the maximum lethal distance, after which, it becomes, as you say, as lethal as a tanning bed. Using the calculation I did earlier, say 48" represents 2KM, which means that up until that point, its still an instant disintegration level of power, and after that, it quickly peters out in output

Yeah. A laser technically will not stop till it hits something. However it will quickly diffuse over distances till it eventually is indistinguishable from background radiation. This happens faster in atmosphere.

Thats actually one reason its so dangerous for little handheld lasers to be pointed at aircraft. At altitude, that little 1/8" dot becomes several meters of still blinding light.

This would mean any laser weapon would have a maximum effective range, even in space.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yeah. A laser technically will not stop till it hits something. However it will quickly diffuse over distances till it eventually is indistinguishable from background radiation. This happens faster in atmosphere.

Thats actually one reason its so dangerous for little handheld lasers to be pointed at aircraft. At altitude, that little 1/8" dot becomes several meters of still blinding light.

This would mean any laser weapon would have a maximum effective range, even in space.

I would presume however laser weapons would still have a 'maximum range' in space.

By comparisons solid projectiles don't have a maximum range.... they just keep going until they hit something, although I presume gravity would have a higher effect due to less resistance, albeit I'm sure machine spirits could calculate for compensations

HexHammer wrote:

 Baldeagle91 wrote:

KayTwo wrote:
Slopped armor was one of the great tank renovations of WW2

Since before ww1..... the whole concept of sloped armour is incredibly old, even being used on ww1 tanks and before tanks were even a thing (such as confederate ironclads).

Put simply it's easier to make 'boxy' tank and it gives more internal space, thus many tank designers to this day still making 'boxy' armoured vehicles.

I think it was mere chance that they made sloped armor and not intentionally, because the german WW2 Tiger Tank didn't have sloped armor and the germans was very diligent people, they made such high quality that their tanks took too much time to manufacture, compared to the US and UK tanks that was garbage. It was the Russians that invented the concept of sloped armor and only after the east front war with Germany vs Russia, then the germans began to make sloped armor.

The tiger 1 actually kind of does have sloped armour if you look at it, even it's more horizontal plates have slight angles to increase LOS thickness. In fact most post ww1 tanks have some degree of sloped armour on them as well. Add to the fact if you look in the Tiger 1 crew manual you will see they tell crews to angle their tanks at around 30 degrees from their opponent to 'slope' the armour angle to increase the chance of deflections. Even German tank designers highlighted that sloped armour was offer extra protection, at the sacrifice of internal space which meant you had to make the tank even larger (and it was already too large) or make the tank too cramped. Look at the sheer size of later heavies with sloped armor such as the Tiger II and IS series.

By comparison most 40K era Imperium Tanks, are weirdly enough, extremely roomy and have plenty of space for high tech equipment. You'd probably find tank crews being incredibly comfy by ww2 standards, which kind of goes against the imperium looking after troops, rather than cannon fodder. It probably wasn't intentional

If Sherman tankers for example did the same thing, their frontal armour would have an effective thickness much higher than the tigers, however their side armour was too thin to do this. By comparison the Tiger 1's side armour was thick enough. The Panther 1 is another tank they told their crews not to angle for the same reason. By comparison the Tiger II is another tank crews were told to angle.

All sloped armour did was mean crews didn't have to angle their tanks. In theory T-34 crews could of done so, but I'm yet to see evidence claiming so. Also many early war british tanks had sloped armour too such as the matilda II and crusader III. Also the slopes seen on tanks like the sherman and t-34 use a lot of space up, meaning weirdly enough they aren't really efficient designs, you get far less internal space, higher profiles and they are harder to make. As such most modern tanks have angles seen more commonly seen on the Crusader III, Panzer III + IV etc,. The you get some like the K2 Black Panther that are rather boxy, as once your armour get's to a certain level slopes can make it harder to equip your tanks with higher levels of protection because LOS thickness is less important than it used to be.

Sorry I'm getting a bit sidetracked here.... if you want to discuss the mechanics and history of sloped armour just PM me

Just bringing some fun and real info on laser effects into a more comprensible scale.


https://what-if.xkcd.com/13/

 Baldeagle91 wrote:

This would mean any laser weapon would have a maximum effective range, even in space.

Yes. Diffusion happens even in a vacuum. But at a much lower rate than in an atmosphere. Of course in a vacuum the diffusion happens at such an incredibly small rate that you'd be limited not by the lethal range of the weapon, but by your ability to see your target and predict its movements at distances where the speed of light actually matters. IE: You see your target, but thats actually where it was 1-2 seconds ago, not where it is now or where it will be when your shot gets there.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
48", obviously.
On a more serious note, theorhetically they should have infinite range due to being a light based weapon, but the intensity (power) of the shot would lessen over distance.
So if you are a foot from the lascannon - complete disintegration
Several hundred kilometers away - slight tan

That's how I understand how laser like weapons work anyway.
A physicist would probably give a better answer

Indeed, then there's the Imperial Sniper that has range of 72" yes? ..which seems illogical.

 Baldeagle91 wrote:


Chapter Marines....

Legionary Marines however, while still special forces, where designed to do pretty much every aspect of warfare, including pitched battles and long range warfare.

It's the main reason during the great crusade and horus heresy that space marine legions came equipped with their own basilisks and medusas.

Legionary marines also often fought as part of a combined arms force with other non marine forces. The marines had authority over these other elements and that later led to problems.

 Baldeagle91 wrote:
I would presume however laser weapons would still have a 'maximum range' in space.

By comparisons solid projectiles don't have a maximum range.... they just keep going until they hit something, although I presume gravity would have a higher effect due to less resistance, albeit I'm sure machine spirits could calculate for compensations

Maybe in space, but not in normal earth surface conditions, wind resistance would give it a limited distance so it will slow down and drop.

I know some observatories has a powerful laser not only to measure the atmospheric turbulence for adaptive astronomical observations, but also an extremely powerful laser to hit the moon mirrors placed on the moon long ago. The moon has quite a distance.

I'm afraid that "sloped armor" on the Tiger 1 tank is mere due to chance than intentional.

3 simple words. Shock And Awe. Space Marines are shock troopers, not prolonged siege specialists. As everyone else has stated, they show up, kick ass, then ideally get the hell out. IG are there for prolonged sieges. The most prolonged sieges they would have would be attacking fortresses, where demolishers are rolled out to smash through walls, then they gut the fortress. Whether loyal or traitor, they don't like to fight longer than they have to. They are the elite, and losses cost them. IG or cultists will be setup to deal with the long term efforts.