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2017/03/07 23:47:49
Subject: Reworked PP forum live - Faction forums removed
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Been Around the Block
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This is the final nail in the coffin for me. PP can go to hell, Mk 3 ruined the factions I enjoyed, the retailer thing was bs, and now the forums. The models were never great, GW has always been better and cheaper and now I can just concentrate on playing games where the minis are fun to assemble and paint, not 3 unique sculpts in a box of 10 at twice the.price and half the quality of competitors. My meta has gone to gak since the end of mk2 so anything and everything I liked about the game is dead.
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2017/03/08 14:09:36
Subject: Re:Reworked PP forum live - Faction forums removed
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I remember when the old GW forums shut down, I was very disappointed (I even sent a strongly worded email to GW customer service) and thought GW was making a stupid move shutting out the community. Years later it doesn't seem like that big a deal and frankly shutting down their official forum pushed my to places like a warseer and Dakka and helped expand my war gaming world.
It seems like a huge loss now but the internet is a big space. You'll find a home.
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2017/03/08 14:16:58
Subject: Re:Reworked PP forum live - Faction forums removed
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Killer Klaivex
The dark behind the eyes.
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Davout wrote:I remember when the old GW forums shut down, I was very disappointed (I even sent a strongly worded email to GW customer service) and thought GW was making a stupid move shutting out the community. Years later it doesn't seem like that big a deal and frankly shutting down their official forum pushed my to places like a warseer and Dakka and helped expand my war gaming world.
It seems like a huge loss now but the internet is a big space. You'll find a home.
I think the bigger loss is the lack of any direct contact with the PP design team. It smacks of them wanting to bury their heads in the sand and pretend that, since the negativity has gone elsewhere, it no longer exists.
PP could well end up circling the same drain that GW has been monopolising for the last decade or so.
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blood reaper wrote:I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote:Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote:GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
Andilus Greatsword wrote:
"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"
Akiasura wrote:I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
insaniak wrote:
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet. |
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2017/03/08 15:58:30
Subject: Re:Reworked PP forum live - Faction forums removed
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Second Story Man
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Davout wrote:I remember when the old GW forums shut down, I was very disappointed (I even sent a strongly worded email to GW customer service) and thought GW was making a stupid move shutting out the community. Years later it doesn't seem like that big a deal and frankly shutting down their official forum pushed my to places like a warseer and Dakka and helped expand my war gaming world.
It seems like a huge loss now but the internet is a big space. You'll find a home.
I remember when the old GW forums shut down. While I was disappointed, I did understand why they did so. The amount of toxic vitriol that was present was incredible. The down side was, as you said, dropping out of the good feedback that was there. Unfortunately, it often got drowned out by the others.
vipoid wrote:I think the bigger loss is the lack of any direct contact with the PP design team. It smacks of them wanting to bury their heads in the sand and pretend that, since the negativity has gone elsewhere, it no longer exists.
PP could well end up circling the same drain that GW has been monopolising for the last decade or so.
If they truly wanted to drop out of any direct contact, they would have pulled a GW and dropped the forums all together. There are places to present feedback, they just aren't localized to one specific faction like before where people can attempt to wallow in discontent.
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Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right. |
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2017/03/08 18:16:35
Subject: Re:Reworked PP forum live - Faction forums removed
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Regular Dakkanaut
SoCal
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[Begin rant]
I got out of GW entirely (never to return, no matter WHAT their latest pitch may be) and moved to WMH and X-Wing. It's getting to the point where I'm ready to say "A pox on all your houses!" I'm about ready to give up on ALL table-top mini games and revert solely to board games. PP is clearly adopting all the worst practices of GW. Even Fantasy Flight seems to be doing the same with its constant power-creep and rules pile-up.
Maybe it's time to warn the gaming public about table-top mini games: "Warning: This game has a shelf life of X years. You will only be able to play this game for that long. But we want you to spend the mortgage money on it anyway, and then quit that game and buy our next one." Had I been so warned back in the day, I probably never would have started in any table-top mini game.
[End rant]
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/08 18:18:29
"Word to your moms, I came to drop bombs." -- House of Pain |
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2017/03/08 18:36:05
Subject: Reworked PP forum live - Faction forums removed
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Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator
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Personally, I'm not all that bothered. In my experience, very little discussion or progress of any real value occurred on the forums. And what little was there was often overshadowed by a massive amount of toxicity, nastiness and bad natured vitriol. They were a hive of group think, echo chambers and list-by-rote, with very little creativity in terms of 'how' to play, and little appreciation for alternative viewpoints.
No, I didn't like them. They were more trouble than they were worth. In my experience, all they did was stifle players own creativity. A lot of the top players I know also felt the same, in that the best approach towards the forums was to avoid them completely.
This is certainly not untrue.
I have been an all-time lurker with about 15 posts or so.
The whole environment there looked a bit strange, toxic you say. Maybe.
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Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss |
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2017/03/08 19:19:53
Subject: Re:Reworked PP forum live - Faction forums removed
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Posts with Authority
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LordOfTheSloths wrote:[Begin rant]
I got out of GW entirely (never to return, no matter WHAT their latest pitch may be) and moved to WMH and X-Wing. It's getting to the point where I'm ready to say "A pox on all your houses!" I'm about ready to give up on ALL table-top mini games and revert solely to board games. PP is clearly adopting all the worst practices of GW. Even Fantasy Flight seems to be doing the same with its constant power-creep and rules pile-up.
Maybe it's time to warn the gaming public about table-top mini games: "Warning: This game has a shelf life of X years. You will only be able to play this game for that long. But we want you to spend the mortgage money on it anyway, and then quit that game and buy our next one." Had I been so warned back in the day, I probably never would have started in any table-top mini game.
[End rant]
The problem as I see it is - and this is how I imagine far too many GW and ex- GW gamers to think, rightly or wrongly - you're labouring under the assumption that wargaming consists of a handful of big-box, one-stop, high-production-value games. And even that narrow view is wider than the trio of GW, PP, and FF!
Games - while I'm at it - that have a vested interest in keeping you in their all-in-one culture and keeping you buying their stuff: an endless conveyor belt of new minis with killer (and eventually unbalancing) new rules to convince you to buy them; edition shakeups that create a new meta and demand extra purchases to fit in with it; the steady creep of force size and mini headcount; fancy presentation, the box-set convenience and the whole 'shiny things' effect that means you'll have a ready-made stream of opponents, and that few people play anything else...
The real metagame, in other words. I don't wonder that you're that you're sick of it - many are; I am - but that's not how it is for all wargames and wargaming. Or at least, it's not so pronounced as with those few of the biggest names.
End rant.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/08 19:22:25
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2017/03/08 19:35:28
Subject: Re:Reworked PP forum live - Faction forums removed
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Regular Dakkanaut
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LordOfTheSloths wrote:[Begin rant]
I got out of GW entirely (never to return, no matter WHAT their latest pitch may be) and moved to WMH and X-Wing. It's getting to the point where I'm ready to say "A pox on all your houses!" I'm about ready to give up on ALL table-top mini games and revert solely to board games. PP is clearly adopting all the worst practices of GW. Even Fantasy Flight seems to be doing the same with its constant power-creep and rules pile-up.
Maybe it's time to warn the gaming public about table-top mini games: "Warning: This game has a shelf life of X years. You will only be able to play this game for that long. But we want you to spend the mortgage money on it anyway, and then quit that game and buy our next one." Had I been so warned back in the day, I probably never would have started in any table-top mini game.
[End rant]
This is why games like Magic forcibly remove older content from the standard game so newer content does not have to compete with it.
Pros and cons to that system, as you are keeping power creep under control BUT you are also invalidating people's purchases. Give and take.
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2017/03/08 19:36:30
Subject: Reworked PP forum live - Faction forums removed
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Using Object Source Lighting
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Sloths, yep, I've been moving towards board games. They're starting to get infected with more and more "get the next mega expansion to stay current" thing, but at least if you show up without the latest... whatever thing, you're just missing out on content and it generally doesn't unbalance the game.
And they're full of cards and whatever, so tend to be much more conservative with new editions.
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2017/03/08 20:25:38
Subject: Re:Reworked PP forum live - Faction forums removed
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Like I said above wargaming opened up for me once I stopped thinking about it as GW only. There are a ton of rules sets that don't care what figs you use and a host of companies producing really nice minitures. Frankly there has never been a better time to get out of the GW/PP rat race then right now.
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2017/03/08 21:35:51
Subject: Reworked PP forum live - Faction forums removed
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Dakka Veteran
Seattle, WA USA
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I feel like I'm in some kind of weird time-warp/alternate universe, where the once loved PP and the hated GW have switched places. It seems to this old grognard that PP is walking right down the path GW went in the late 90s, and is blissfully unaware of it, or too arrogant to think it will bite them in the same way.
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2017/03/08 22:00:08
Subject: Reworked PP forum live - Faction forums removed
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Snord
Midwest USA
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Valander wrote:I feel like I'm in some kind of weird time-warp/alternate universe, where the once loved PP and the hated GW have switched places. It seems to this old grognard that PP is walking right down the path GW went in the late 90s, and is blissfully unaware of it, or too arrogant to think it will bite them in the same way.
We all need to remember that a business is there to make money. In GW's case, they are publicly traded, and have to appeal to their shareholders. Both both GW and PP are for-profit companies that exist to make money; every decision they make, every model they sell, and game they make, is to make money. These two companies, arguably the two largest in the miniature wargaming industry, are doing what they can to stay alive and keep supplying us, the customer, with product and fun times. Given that GW did turn themselves around, I have high hopes for PP in the long term.
Given that both these companies are reacting in the same way to similar situations is indicative of some other symptom of miniature wargaming? Reacting harshly to online discount retailers, silencing hyper-critical voices on in-house communities, and faulty army lists at release - perhaps these are growing pains that miniature gaming companies all will have to react to at some point when they grow to this size? I am legitimately curious about this, as I put together a business plan for starting up my own miniatures company last year as the capstone to my Master's degree work; I looked to GW and PP as examples for how companies should and shouldn't be run.
We shall see what happens in the long term. I have not seen any Facebook activity in my local groups regarding the latest PP announcements, but I don't imagine that it has slowed down their gaming at all.
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2017/03/08 22:23:31
Subject: Reworked PP forum live - Faction forums removed
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Dakka Veteran
Seattle, WA USA
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Of course. And both have done so.
Still, there's always the risk of becoming too hyper-focused on the bean counting, and sabotaging your customers' good will by doing things they don't like, which usually results in expression via their wallets. People "quit GW" because of those kinds of feelings. Will they "quit PP" for the same reasons? Only time will tell, but patterns are patterns.
Given that both these companies are reacting in the same way to similar situations is indicative of some other symptom of miniature wargaming? Reacting harshly to online discount retailers, silencing hyper-critical voices on in-house communities, and faulty army lists at release - perhaps these are growing pains that miniature gaming companies all will have to react to at some point when they grow to this size?
Maybe. But the warning sign in my mind is that GW went one way, had some fairly bad PR and earnings losses for a while, and is now changing away from some of those directions (not all of them, of course). IMO, just feels like PP is about to make some of the same mistakes. I got this feeling a few years ago, which is why I quit being so involved with it (that, and wanted to try to start my own thing, eventually). I don't think it's a "OMG DOOM" thing, just like all the cries over the years that " GW is going to fold!" were hyperbole. I do, however, know that for me, the shift in model quality (ugh, PVC) and increasing bloat and rules in the tail of Mk II, turned me off, at least for now. Will it turn around, and rekindle my interest? Like you said, we'll have to wait and see.
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2017/03/08 22:42:51
Subject: Reworked PP forum live - Faction forums removed
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Stealthy Grot Snipa
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Valander wrote:I don't think it's a "OMG DOOM" thing, just like all the cries over the years that " GW is going to fold!" were hyperbole. I do, however, know that for me, the shift in model quality (ugh, PVC) and increasing bloat and rules in the tail of Mk II, turned me off, at least for now. Will it turn around, and rekindle my interest? Like you said, we'll have to wait and see.
I've been hearing " GW is going to fold!" cries for years and years now, and it hasn't happened yet. Over the past couple years, they've been taking what look like massive steps in the right direction, and my FLGS has seen a huge resurgence in the number of 40K players, and Age of Sigmar is starting to gain some pretty good traction as well. PP games have actually dropped off, due to a combination of things I think. Mk3 is one, and I know several top tier players that weren't happy with the heavier warjack emphasis in Mk3 over infantry spam, along with rules tweaks/changes.
PP is, I think, certainly making what appear to be missteps here and there; their communication with the customer base has been somewhat erratic lately I feel. Closing the majority of their forums with only a 2-day notice and zero communication about what will and what won't be removed doesn't generate any goodwill at all, and while there are "good riddance to that toxicity!" posters, more gamers are likely to complain to friends and fellow gamers about the drastic changes in a negative way. Personally, as someone who really values hobby and painting time, the decisions to keep producing new models in pvc plastic is not a good one; I was immediately turned off the new Grymkin faction when I read that the majority of the miniatures for it would be soft plastic. It's just not a great material to work with, and I'd happily pay more to get resin or pewter sculpts.
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2017/03/08 23:14:25
Subject: Re:Reworked PP forum live - Faction forums removed
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Missionary On A Mission
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Where was it confirmed that the Grymkin was going to have a lot of PVC?
Uggh if true that really puts a damper on things.
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Anvils Hammer wrote:
@MrFlutterPie - That's not currently a service we offer, but you can purchase quality miniatures from us..
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2017/03/09 00:47:03
Subject: Reworked PP forum live - Faction forums removed
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I would rather deal with Resin and metal, than PP's restic/plesin. I don't think it holds the same sharpness that GW style plastic does, let alone Resin and Metal.
BunkhouseBuster wrote:
Given that both these companies are reacting in the same way to similar situations is indicative of some other symptom of miniature wargaming? Reacting harshly to online discount retailers, silencing hyper-critical voices on in-house communities, and faulty army lists at release - perhaps these are growing pains that miniature gaming companies all will have to react to at some point when they grow to this size? I am legitimately curious about this, as I put together a business plan for starting up my own miniatures company last year as the capstone to my Master's degree work; I looked to GW and PP as examples for how companies should and shouldn't be run.
Don't forget that FFG did the same thing as well - curb online discount retailers in the name of brick and mortar stores while simultaneously increasing the prominence of their own web store.
They want to cut the small middle men out of the picture because they do not have the market reach of sales volume of Amazon, while at the same time not offering places to play or the maintenance of local communities like FLGSs do.
As much as we the consumer loves online discount retailers, they really add nothing to the industry as a whole. This is why I think all of the major game companies are pushing hard against them. The companies would rather directly sell to the consumer or have the consumer buy at a Local Store. If they have to go to a discount retailer, better it be Amazon who buys tons of product than a discount retailer who buys far less.
Getting rid of forums, I think, is a general trend, since it is easier for companies to manage things on Social Media. Posts are not archived and are buried by a deludge of new posts within a few days. It is very easy to permanently ban someone from posting on your page. Most social media sites are more surface level than forums, which means praise and criticism is help to a paragraph at most, often times. The audience is already built in, all people have to do is click like to start seeing posts in their feed (so your reach is far greater than on a self-selected community forum).
Also, if I am going to be 100% honest, there is less meaningful and less spiteful criticism on social media. Most of it is single sentence, "this sucks. You guys should make better games! god!" kind of posts, rather than a hate filled rants we see on forums. Conversely, you also lose out on introspective and illuminating criticism seen on Forums as well but I think most companies weigh the options and decide that those posts are worth losing.
As for faulty army lists, this has been a thing since the beginning of the hobby. What's different today is level of access people have to game designers. The danger of this is the squeaky wheel syndrome. If someone complains and the designers fix the problem, then everyone and their monkey's uncle is going to complain so their pet problem can be resolved/fixed. Beyond that, I am sure it is also difficult for designers to sift through the vitriol, blind anger and furious, mean spirited debate to find the constructive/meaningful posts.
This is why PP's CID forum has a strict code of conduct and emphasizes battle reports and actual play experiences over theory crafting. Without that, I can say X, Y or Z is broken but no one really knows if X, Y and Z are truly broken OR perhaps I am simply not finding a work around solution to mitigate X, Y and Z's advantages.
Again, the problem is that people do not have an outlet for units that are currently suffering and/or are currently broken, since the CID forum only deals with playtest material and the forums have removed any means of discussing armies and/or units.
Would PP have fixed as much of Mark 3 as they had had the forums not been pushing PP to correct its errors?
Who knows. Only time will tell.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/09 00:54:10
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2017/03/09 03:08:25
Subject: Reworked PP forum live - Faction forums removed
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You Sunk My Battleship!
Pittsburgh, PA
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Wow, what great timing on my part...
I left the PP forums nearly 5 years ago because of the overall attitude - not of the members but of the moderators. If you held someone accountable to their opinion or misinformation, mods perceived it as "negative". So people had free reign to contribute negative value to the community and the game, but it was a punishable offense to act against it.
I once got a second warning in a private message discussion for trying to appeal an unjust warning. I wasn't challenging them in public but it made me feel like their idea of "community" and mine were different.
So, I left the forums. And not long thereafter, the game. I stopped playing because the community that maintained my interest was policed by admins who only showed up in the aftermath of a problem and then punished the victims rather than the perpetrators.
Fast forward to last week. I notice a Khador BattleBox in an FLGS I've just started visiting. I had overlooked them before because I no longer play, and so I hadn't noticed the new 'caster in it. come to discover that Mk3 is out (yeah, it's been out for months and I'm late to the party). I stop out to the forums and they're down until the next morning... and then the Khador forum is gone completely.
The faction forum is the main reason I had for being in the community - to discuss the rules, tactics and fluff of the faction, and to share photos of our work. Now, that's gone.
For all the talk about the signal-to-noise ratio of the old forum, in the new format anything useful for a Khador player is lost amid the "noise" of everyone all in one place. Not sure how it will build community when someone can't even find other like-minded players who identify with the same interests.
I'm still interested in re-learning the game (Mk3 BattleBox will be here in the next day or two) but I'm saddened to see that PP still hasn't learned how to manage a community. Actively squashing disagreement and subjective interpretation of what is "offensive" has been proven to have a dampening effect on discussion. Rather than encouraging it, people become reluctant to say anything for fear of sanction at the whim of someone who has no accountability or concrete guideline for use of their authority.
Glad to see that there are other places where one can go to talk about the game. I've registered on the Tabletop Gaming Forum and hoping it will become a more ideal version of what PP could have made.
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2017/03/09 07:09:24
Subject: Re:Reworked PP forum live - Faction forums removed
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Regular Dakkanaut
SoCal
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Red_Five wrote:LordOfTheSloths wrote:[Begin rant]
I got out of GW entirely (never to return, no matter WHAT their latest pitch may be) and moved to WMH and X-Wing. It's getting to the point where I'm ready to say "A pox on all your houses!" I'm about ready to give up on ALL table-top mini games and revert solely to board games. PP is clearly adopting all the worst practices of GW. Even Fantasy Flight seems to be doing the same with its constant power-creep and rules pile-up.
Maybe it's time to warn the gaming public about table-top mini games: "Warning: This game has a shelf life of X years. You will only be able to play this game for that long. But we want you to spend the mortgage money on it anyway, and then quit that game and buy our next one." Had I been so warned back in the day, I probably never would have started in any table-top mini game.
[End rant]
This is why games like Magic forcibly remove older content from the standard game so newer content does not have to compete with it.
Pros and cons to that system, as you are keeping power creep under control BUT you are also invalidating people's purchases. Give and take.
It's even worse than that. M:tG (which I used to play quite a lot of) at least has multiple tiers, and things like EDH, so that you can always play with what you bought (with the exception of a very small number of cards that are banned or errata'd). With far too many table-top mini games, not only are there no tiers, but each revision destroys the value--to YOU--of some, if not all, of your investment up to that point.
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"Word to your moms, I came to drop bombs." -- House of Pain |
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2017/03/09 11:21:01
Subject: Reworked PP forum live - Faction forums removed
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Killer Klaivex
The dark behind the eyes.
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HeadHunter67 wrote:I left the PP forums nearly 5 years ago because of the overall attitude - not of the members but of the moderators. If you held someone accountable to their opinion or misinformation, mods perceived it as "negative". So people had free reign to contribute negative value to the community and the game, but it was a punishable offense to act against it.
Just wanted to say that I've experienced this too, albeit on a different forum.
HeadHunter67 wrote:
Fast forward to last week. I notice a Khador BattleBox in an FLGS I've just started visiting. I had overlooked them before because I no longer play, and so I hadn't noticed the new 'caster in it. come to discover that Mk3 is out (yeah, it's been out for months and I'm late to the party). I stop out to the forums and they're down until the next morning... and then the Khador forum is gone completely.
The faction forum is the main reason I had for being in the community - to discuss the rules, tactics and fluff of the faction, and to share photos of our work. Now, that's gone.
For all the talk about the signal-to-noise ratio of the old forum, in the new format anything useful for a Khador player is lost amid the "noise" of everyone all in one place. Not sure how it will build community when someone can't even find other like-minded players who identify with the same interests.
Yeah, I really loved the faction forums. It just made it so much easier to find relevant topics and talk to people playing the same faction as you.
The thing is, that applied even when I was a new player. In fact, the faction forums were great for helping me look at the different armies and deciding which appealed to me the most. Certainly far more helpful than anything in the new player area.
What's more, even if new players find the new player sections more helpful, it seems really weird to basically boot them off the forum as soon as they've learned the game.
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blood reaper wrote:I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote:Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote:GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
Andilus Greatsword wrote:
"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"
Akiasura wrote:I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
insaniak wrote:
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet. |
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2017/03/09 14:20:16
Subject: Reworked PP forum live - Faction forums removed
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Snord
Midwest USA
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Red_Five wrote:I would rather deal with Resin and metal, than PP's restic/plesin. I don't think it holds the same sharpness that GW style plastic does, let alone Resin and Metal.
Indeed! Especially when the mold lines go down the face of the model or somewhere that you can't really clean them off.
Red_Five wrote: BunkhouseBuster wrote:
Given that both these companies are reacting in the same way to similar situations is indicative of some other symptom of miniature wargaming? Reacting harshly to online discount retailers, silencing hyper-critical voices on in-house communities, and faulty army lists at release - perhaps these are growing pains that miniature gaming companies all will have to react to at some point when they grow to this size? I am legitimately curious about this, as I put together a business plan for starting up my own miniatures company last year as the capstone to my Master's degree work; I looked to GW and PP as examples for how companies should and shouldn't be run.
Don't forget that FFG did the same thing as well - curb online discount retailers in the name of brick and mortar stores while simultaneously increasing the prominence of their own web store.
They want to cut the small middle men out of the picture because they do not have the market reach of sales volume of Amazon, while at the same time not offering places to play or the maintenance of local communities like FLGSs do.
As much as we the consumer loves online discount retailers, they really add nothing to the industry as a whole. This is why I think all of the major game companies are pushing hard against them. The companies would rather directly sell to the consumer or have the consumer buy at a Local Store. If they have to go to a discount retailer, better it be Amazon who buys tons of product than a discount retailer who buys far less.
I had not heard that FFG did that. I haven't kept up with them at all, so that is news to me.
Really, I don't have any problems with limiting and otherwise restricting retail policies to support certain stores. In fact, I am glad that they are doing it. I try to support my local store if I am playing at them, since that is how they make money.
My issue is with the PP snobs who hailed PP as a company superior to GW because it didn't follow these same practices, only to later actually do the exact same things later. The elitist, hypocritical hyperbole spouted off by some of the local Warmahordes players (including one who eventually went off to work for PP a few years back) just grates on my nerves. I bought it for a few months, and then realized that these guys were jerks and not deserving of my time.
Red_Five wrote:As for faulty army lists, this has been a thing since the beginning of the hobby. What's different today is level of access people have to game designers. The danger of this is the squeaky wheel syndrome. If someone complains and the designers fix the problem, then everyone and their monkey's uncle is going to complain so their pet problem can be resolved/fixed. Beyond that, I am sure it is also difficult for designers to sift through the vitriol, blind anger and furious, mean spirited debate to find the constructive/meaningful posts.
This is why PP's CID forum has a strict code of conduct and emphasizes battle reports and actual play experiences over theory crafting. Without that, I can say X, Y or Z is broken but no one really knows if X, Y and Z are truly broken OR perhaps I am simply not finding a work around solution to mitigate X, Y and Z's advantages.
Again, the problem is that people do not have an outlet for units that are currently suffering and/or are currently broken, since the CID forum only deals with playtest material and the forums have removed any means of discussing armies and/or units.
Would PP have fixed as much of Mark 3 as they had had the forums not been pushing PP to correct its errors?
Who knows. Only time will tell.
I just hope that PP knows what they are doing. Certainly, the Internet can be used to abuse and spout vitriol (we all have seen it). But communication is key in making customers happy. The trick is figuring out the right amount of access. The game designers make their game, and there will be people who don't like it no matter how balanced or perfected or fun it is, that is the nature of people; some of them will criticize things no matter what. Maybe something like what GW is doing with its Facebook team is the answer?
I wish they hadn't eliminated their faction specific forums and instead implemented a more strict policy, but that would have been met with additional resistance and criticism. In this case, I am afraid there are no winners except for the forums that receive growth from this action.
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0051/10/09 15:33:09
Subject: Re:Reworked PP forum live - Faction forums removed
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Posts with Authority
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Red_Five wrote:
This is why games like Magic forcibly remove older content from the standard game so newer content does not have to compete with it.
Pros and cons to that system, as you are keeping power creep under control BUT you are also invalidating people's purchases. Give and take.
Isn't either option invalidating people's purchases?
Businesses have to make money, sure, but the particular model of making money by making people buy more by constantly making new products (and invalidating old ones) perhaps benefits the business more than the customer. In the gaming world, at least. Not to go all Wolfie Smith, but it seems more exploitative than it should be. Ditto when we try to analyse why gaming businesses can this game, or shake up that set of rules, or muck about with those forums. It benefits the business - in the short term, at least - but does it benefit us, the gamers?
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2017/03/09 16:29:48
Subject: Re:Reworked PP forum live - Faction forums removed
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Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say
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As much as we the consumer loves online discount retailers, they really add nothing to the industry as a whole. This is why I think all of the major game companies are pushing hard against them.
The online retailer thing was actually the biggest point of contention for me on this - because it shows the same dinosaur like lack of thinking that seems to haunt most industries (and the world at large if I want to be cynical). I'm sure a lot of farriers wanted the sale of cars restricted too, but advancement only comes through adaptation.
To me it's a huge red flag when an industry (or especially a single company) tries to impose restriction through economic strong arming. That's no something I'm going to encourage with my dollars.
And I would point out online retailers significantly expand gaming to those who are without easy LGS access. And it exposes people to a variety of games, especially smaller games, that might not be carried in a store. Would I have heard of Achtung Cthulu if it hadn't been on Miniature's Market front page one day? Would I have heard of Heavy Gear if FRP Games hadn't been advertising a sale? Etc.
In addition some of the significant online retailers I know are just the net side of an an actual LGS, if the mantra is "my poor LGS!" then why hurt the stores that are trying to adapt to the new world?
As I said, newspaper printers didn't try to squash online news, big box stores didn't try to squash Amazon, the idea that an industry (that is a private group that you don't have representation in) can or should try to quash online activity is disturbing to say the least and sets a dangerous precedent however small it might be.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/03/09 16:45:16
I prefer to buy from miniature manufacturers that *don't* support the overthrow of democracy. |
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2017/03/09 18:19:51
Subject: Reworked PP forum live - Faction forums removed
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You Sunk My Battleship!
Pittsburgh, PA
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The other thing I find truly disappointing and annoying about PP shutting down the faction forums is that it removed all of the posts showcasing wonderfully painted miniatures and color schemes.
I'm sure PP would justify this by saying that they still have a forum section for posts about finished models, but the fact is all of the people who did post theirs in the faction forum (sensibly so, as that's where they will appeal to interest) are GONE. I tried doing a search today to see some good examples of 5th Border Legion color schemes and even though some of the pages are cached by Google, the images are not.
So, if I'm looking for that sort of content, where am I going to go? PP expects I'd spend hours drilling down in their general forum to find it. Truth is, I have to look elsewhere - and "look elsewhere" sounds line the opposite of "community".
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2017/03/09 18:58:17
Subject: Re:Reworked PP forum live - Faction forums removed
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Vermis wrote:Red_Five wrote:
This is why games like Magic forcibly remove older content from the standard game so newer content does not have to compete with it.
Pros and cons to that system, as you are keeping power creep under control BUT you are also invalidating people's purchases. Give and take.
Isn't either option invalidating people's purchases?
Businesses have to make money, sure, but the particular model of making money by making people buy more by constantly making new products (and invalidating old ones) perhaps benefits the business more than the customer. In the gaming world, at least. Not to go all Wolfie Smith, but it seems more exploitative than it should be. Ditto when we try to analyse why gaming businesses can this game, or shake up that set of rules, or muck about with those forums. It benefits the business - in the short term, at least - but does it benefit us, the gamers?
With Magic Type 2/Standard, your previous purchases are completely invalidated because you can no longer use the cards. Power creep just means your older units are less effective relative to new models/units.
PP, GW and FFG each deal with this problem in a different way.
GW will make a formation which will include sub-par units and give them bonus rules to make them more appealing.
PP will just errata the unit to make it better.
FFG will release new upgrade cards that make old units better.
PP's method is the cleanest but it
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2017/03/10 07:44:56
Subject: Reworked PP forum live - Faction forums removed
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Member of the Ethereal Council
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This bums me and worries me. I JUST bought into this game and im having a blast. I even got a Storm Raptor for my B-day.
I dont want this game to fail, the factions are cool. Miniatures have gotten better since when I played
I just feel like, a company doesnt NEED forums.
but im bummed the faction forums didnt need to go. Where can I go to see a comprehensive guide of many units in my faction? Yeah I can go here and say "How best do I use a Woldwyrd" But i will be most likely not much
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2017/03/10 07:56:51
Subject: Reworked PP forum live - Faction forums removed
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Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator
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hotsauceman1 wrote:This bums me and worries me. I JUST bought into this game and im having a blast. I even got a Storm Raptor for my B-day.
I dont want this game to fail, the factions are cool. Miniatures have gotten better since when I played
I just feel like, a company doesnt NEED forums.
but im bummed the faction forums didnt need to go. Where can I go to see a comprehensive guide of many units in my faction? Yeah I can go here and say "How best do I use a Woldwyrd" But i will be most likely not much
Just have a look into battlecollege.org. Its the mk3 version of the famous battlecollege.com.
Unfortunately, the entries are not all complete, not yet.
I've written some parts for the Cryx faction.
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Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss |
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2017/03/10 08:08:45
Subject: Re:Reworked PP forum live - Faction forums removed
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Regular Dakkanaut
SoCal
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Red_Five wrote: With Magic Type 2/Standard, your previous purchases are completely invalidated because you can no longer use the cards.
You can still use those earlier cards in other formats, which many players play. Especially EDH. Unlike GW/ PP, where looking for individuals (let alone groups) who play earlier editions is only slightly easier than looking for a virgin in a maternity ward.
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"Word to your moms, I came to drop bombs." -- House of Pain |
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2017/03/10 10:39:55
Subject: Re:Reworked PP forum live - Faction forums removed
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Posts with Authority
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Red_Five wrote:Power creep just means your older units are less effective relative to new models/units.
Which means you win less with them, so you stop using the old things that you bought, and buy more new things that are more effective, until the next new things are ready to buy.
PP, GW and FFG each deal with this problem in a different way.
I think you're missing my point. All those methods are sticking-plasters, covering over the cracks caused by the bigger problem: the constant churn of new models (or cards) and their attendant new rules. The thing that keeps money flowing into the businesses but frustrates gamers with power creep, imbalance, edition churn (as much or more about making gamers buy more minis as about 'fixing things') and so on.
To quote Frozenwaste's sig, "If you are dissatisfied with the rules it could be that you have mistaken a miniatures marketing tool for a game." It honestly bothers me that so many do. I won't say 'stop playing those games', but at least realise what GW, PP, WotC et al are trying to do with them, and that it's not the way all games are, or should be. To quote another guy's sig, from elsewhere, "Free your hobby! Be creative and stop slavishly following the damn Book." Automatically Appended Next Post: LordOfTheSloths wrote:Unlike GW/ PP, where looking for individuals (let alone groups) who play earlier editions is only slightly easier than looking for a virgin in a maternity ward.
Yup. Delicately put. This is just one aspect of what I mean when I talk about gamers viewing the product churn as normal. "Uuurgh... must buy new edishun... it are new... that mean better... they no sell old edishun no more... no sell no buy mean dead... must buy new... they sell new so must buy... must buy... buy... buy... buy..."
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/10 10:52:17
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2017/03/10 12:46:48
Subject: Re:Reworked PP forum live - Faction forums removed
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Regular Dakkanaut
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There is a simple solution to avoiding power creep. Play historicals. Find a period that interest you, a figure scale that you like to paint and a rule set that you enjoy playing.
You have the entirety of human conflict to choose from (we've spent a lot of time killing each other, your choices are broad) and no rule set can dictate what figs you use. Plus the factions are fixed. Napoleons Imperial Guard are not all of a sudden going to get a shiny new type of cannon or an upgraded commander that makes them more competitive. A pike block is always going to work in the same way and can't be needed by an edition change. GW and PP are minitures companies that happen to publish a set of rules that that's us push their stuff around the table. Warlord is also a minitures company but you don't have to use their rules if you don't like them or buy their figs if you like their rules but don't like their sculpt style. It's a nice change.
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2017/03/10 12:52:42
Subject: Re:Reworked PP forum live - Faction forums removed
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Killer Klaivex
The dark behind the eyes.
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Davout wrote:There is a simple solution to avoiding power creep. Play historicals. Find a period that interest you, a figure scale that you like to paint and a rule set that you enjoy playing.
You have the entirety of human conflict to choose from (we've spent a lot of time killing each other, your choices are broad) and no rule set can dictate what figs you use. Plus the factions are fixed. Napoleons Imperial Guard are not all of a sudden going to get a shiny new type of cannon or an upgraded commander that makes them more competitive. A pike block is always going to work in the same way and can't be needed by an edition change. GW and PP are minitures companies that happen to publish a set of rules that that's us push their stuff around the table. Warlord is also a minitures company but you don't have to use their rules if you don't like them or buy their figs if you like their rules but don't like their sculpt style. It's a nice change.
I appreciate the thought, but it's of little help to those of us who prefer fantasy or sci-fi settings to historical ones.
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blood reaper wrote:I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote:Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote:GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
Andilus Greatsword wrote:
"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"
Akiasura wrote:I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
insaniak wrote:
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet. |
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