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Martel732 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well, I think thats kinda half the point of MCs. That they're very hard to instant death without force weapons. They can take high damage hits and still live.

That said, I would like Str D to go back to having instant death innately instead of just counting as Str10.

Or make FnP have some more things that ignore it. Something that ignores it without causing ID would be interesting. Maybe make Sniper and Fleshbane ignore FnP, since those are specially designed to kill tough things.

Taking high damage hits and living needs to be expensive. That's all I'm saying. Because that makes them superior to heavy infantry in every way. MCs laugh at vindicators, battlecannons, or any other source of single high Str hits.

And most MCs are extremely expensive. Overpriced even. Things like Carnifexes need massive price drops or big stat buffs to be worth it.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well, I think thats kinda half the point of MCs. That they're very hard to instant death without force weapons. They can take high damage hits and still live.

That said, I would like Str D to go back to having instant death innately instead of just counting as Str10.

Or make FnP have some more things that ignore it. Something that ignores it without causing ID would be interesting. Maybe make Sniper and Fleshbane ignore FnP, since those are specially designed to kill tough things.

Taking high damage hits and living needs to be expensive. That's all I'm saying. Because that makes them superior to heavy infantry in every way. MCs laugh at vindicators, battlecannons, or any other source of single high Str hits.

And most MCs are extremely expensive. Overpriced even. Things like Carnifexes need massive price drops or big stat buffs to be worth it.

Nah, they're cheap for how durable they are compared to vehicles. The sin of the Carnifex is that they are slow and the little bugs suck. Extremely expensive are 100+ pt tanks with AV 11 sides. THAT'S expensive.

Wraithlord t8 165 points with sword and two heavy weapons ranging from 8 ap6 s6 shots to two ap2 s8 shots moves 6 inches per turn and has 3+ armour.

Wave serpent av12 skimmer (don't face your rear to enemy). 150 points turns pens into glances on 2+, 5++ with holo feild, 4+ cover from jink. Weapons twin linked turret and shuriken cannon plus one use 2d6 s6 for giving up turning pens into glances.

Vehicals cost the same are more durable and have more guns than even a bristling Wraithlord.

vaurapung wrote:
Wraithlord t8 165 points with sword and two heavy weapons ranging from 8 ap6 s6 shots to two ap2 s8 shots moves 6 inches per turn and has 3+ armour.

Wave serpent av12 skimmer (don't face your rear to enemy). 150 points turns pens into glances on 2+, 5++ with holo feild, 4+ cover from jink. Weapons twin linked turret and shuriken cannon plus one use 2d6 s6 for giving up turning pens into glances.

Vehicals cost the same are more durable and have more guns than even a bristling Wraithlord.

Only the wave serpent has much durability as vehicles go. Compare to a predator and weep.Grats on finding the one exception.

Eh, just give the WL his D-cannon back, and he'll be "good" simply for the 3" S(D) blasts.

Well I do play only eldar but devil fish from Tau are not bad either and you can have almost three rhinos for the price of one lord. Two laserbacks for the price of a lords as well and you still need s5 to glance them down so equally vulnerable to medium weapons as my lords.

Not quite. Your Wraithlords get armor saves. Devil Fish are quite overcosted, and Rhinos and Razorbacks are super fragile. Rhinos at least are cheap. Razorbacks have mostly fallen into disuse for me.

I didn't know Wraithlords get armor saves. Everybody I play with has plenty of ap3 better guns to just make my armour melt away.im hunting cover saves and buying guardians just to bubble wrap him with.

vaurapung wrote:
I just played against marines last night. 5 brightlance, 2 star cannons and 5 shuriken cannons were unable to kill one five man squad of terminators because a 2+ with 5++ save. I know the dice fixed some of it against me but still I net 1 wound per turn in shoot against fleshy men. But a t8 with only 3+ armour is not prepared for the t6 spamming. A happy compromise would be alternate load outs like the wraithknight. The flamer/catpult remain but you could take a sword and shield by giving up taking the heavy weapons.

5 brigtlances alone is 2 dead terminators a turn on average, 2 starcannons equals 1.5, 5 shuriken cannons equals another 2 dead. On average you're killing 5 (200 points of) terminators a turn if they don't have shields, or 2-3 with shields.

Three turns in a row and I killed two total. I'm also the guy that makes an uncanny number of 5++ on my serpents but can't get better than 2 out of 5 hits with three falcons.

Play more games. It will all average out.

Martel732 wrote:
Play more games. It will all average out.

I've feilded three falcons or fire prisms in several casual and local routines and they have never fulfilled their role as tank busters. Either I roll bad to hits or my pens fail, then I have the dead weight on the table my wave serpents much the same they get my guys around and soak up some firepower but never make up for their points cost because it's so hard to wound everyone else's army and I'm living on 5+ saves.

That's because low rate of fire weapons other than d are bad.

vaurapung wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Play more games. It will all average out.

I've feilded three falcons or fire prisms in several casual and local routines and they have never fulfilled their role as tank busters. Either I roll bad to hits or my pens fail, then I have the dead weight on the table my wave serpents much the same they get my guys around and soak up some firepower but never make up for their points cost because it's so hard to wound everyone else's army and I'm living on 5+ saves.

that has always been the issue with fire prisms. they are fairly reliable infantry busters with their blast or large blast, but the focused mode 66% chance to hit not twin linked for the point cost. a lascannon with ap1 and lance is cool and all but for the same points as a typical fire prism (fireprism plus holofields which are practically mandatory) a space marines player can get a predator with +1 front armor , a tl lascannon, and lascannon sponsons.

realistically the need a pulse laser on a fire prism, combine the tanks and call that good.

vaurapung wrote:
Three turns in a row and I killed two total. I'm also the guy that makes an uncanny number of 5++ on my serpents but can't get better than 2 out of 5 hits with three falcons.

You can't suddenly say terminators are so much more durable than a wraithlord just because you rolled poorly. The guns you mentioned will kill either a terminator squad (5.5 unsaved wounds) in 1 turn, which costs 200+ points, or a wraithlord (3.8 unsaved wounds) in 1 turn, which I think max is 185 with 2 missile launchers (which no one use, so more like 165). You absolutely cannot say that terminators are more durable than a wraithlord, especially when you consider that terminators die faster to any form of plasma as well as dying to lasguns. I mean, terminators are trash, but you can't even try to argue that terminators are more durable than a wraithlord.

Wraithlords are pretty darn durable. They only really suffer against things that are str 7 ap3 or better. Those kind of things usually don't have high volume of fire, and are usually short range.
Marines have grav .. but it's short range. The WL can sit back and snipe or even charge the grav unit with soulburst moves (which counter its biggest weakness the speed) or with battle focus to move run shoot if it's in the wraith host.

By my count the only weapons that can stay out of threat range of its close combat, (assuming it has acsess to soulburst for 12" of move, and avg 7" charge for 19 - 24" threat range, ) and have 50% or better of sounding and ignoring armor (so str 8+ and ap 3 or lower) would be:
- grav, (which better kill it or they are in trouble),
- 'Melta weapons / tau fusion
- lazcannons
- krak missiles
- rail cannons
- ion accelerator
- heavy gauss cannon
Etc

So essentially the only ranged counter are generally low shot count primary anti tank weapons. The thing to remember is the WL is eldar. It's a glass cannon. If you drop it front and center and hope it works, of course it will die miserably. But use some finesse and support and it can easily make its points back and be an awsome part of the army. And the kit is great. Plus ynari faction really helps mitigate its slow speed making it very viable. Especially at less then 200pts when you consider the cost of other things that can take a wide variety of heavy class weapons, a high str close combat Attack that is also AP2 armor bane, can smash, and be kitted to deal with anything from hordes to tanks and including terminators or just gaunts.

I think people just gotta learn to use it properly.

As we've discussed about Wraithlord, they don't get any saves from the weapons that will be firing at them where terminators are garunteed at least a 5++. And it wouldn't seem so bad on the table but my Wraithlord can't find much cover either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Up till recently I've played one or two lords in a list 1000-2000 points and they seem to die just because I don't get any saves but when I play against marines, flying circus, necrons and orks they always get to have a save. I just feel that for such a high pointed model it needs to be able to have some kind of save. Even my wtaithknight gets bested by nobs with a warboss and painboy.

vaurapung wrote:
As we've discussed about Wraithlord, they don't get any saves from the weapons that will be firing at them where terminators are garunteed at least a 5++. And it wouldn't seem so bad on the table but my Wraithlord can't find much cover either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Up till recently I've played one or two lords in a list 1000-2000 points and they seem to die just because I don't get any saves but when I play against marines, flying circus, necrons and orks they always get to have a save. I just feel that for such a high pointed model it needs to be able to have some kind of save. Even my wtaithknight gets bested by nobs with a warboss and painboy.

But it does have a "save". It ignores half the things that kill marines, necrons and orks. Terminators die to everything, wraithlords require dedicated anti-tank/MC weaponry. All the things that kill a wraithlord in 1 turn will also wipe a squad of marines in 1 turn, whereas a lot of things that kill marines either don't hurt wraithlords or have a 1/6 chance of wounding.

And what is your wraithknight doing that it's dying to nobs? Are you charging a model that can move 12" into a unit of nobs entirely equipped with PKs? Nobs are bad.

I think I sort of failed to explain my point in last post. I'll try to rephrase.

As just mentioned a WL has a serious edge over other MC, and yes terminators and basic infantry simply because of its high t8. That stops or prevents a huge amount of wounds. Plus just having it on field
- forces enemy anti tank to deal with it - which means shots are NOT going into your knight, farseer, or other valuable unit.
- if you take advantage of cover (just have to be "in" it then even anti tank shots won't hurt much. And if they do it has 5 wounds. Not much can chew that down in 1 turn.
- basic infantry don't have a hope. They have to ignore it and are basically insects in CQC
- being able to pack pretty much any eldar heavy weapon, plus flamers, plus glaive makes it extremely versatile. Especially. Considering it's usually maxed out around 180 pts
- if supported properly - with other units, psychic powers and other eldar abilities it can be a solid addition.

It will not: do well marching up center field and drawing the entire army fire at it. Likewise, aginst things with hidden powerfists, and a good amount of guys you will lose. (Because you'll just chop down 3-4 basic dudes a turn, while the fist takes its time and feeds a bunch of no save wounds)
Ideally it works along side other units and is a solid part of a larger combo. Alone it fails. Combined properly and it's amazing. Like so much eldar, it's a finesse weapon that requires teamwork and planning to use effectively.

A few things I've done that have worked well

Ran it behind my wraithblade deathstar squad. It keeps pace and provides fire power, benefiting from cover given by the blades, and any psychic "bubbles" powers (like the ynari one to give everything a 6++) and when it's time for combat, it can either join the big fight if it's hairy adding a hefty punch, or deal with intercepting the other guy from supporting the main fight, allowing the deathstar to do its work. It can also crack transports (kill a transport, it soulbursts to shoot something else, while the blades soulburst and charge the disembarked occupants) or if I know a scary assault unit is coming my way, posistion it to take the initial charge - overwatching with its flamers, holding ground and allowing my blades to counter charge. Add in support fire from scatbikes, venom squads, whatever and it's a tough group of stuff to deal with.

It also works great escorting and supporting a knight. A single knight will often draw fire, so a WL or 2 on its flanks help keep it alive by drawing some of that fire, providing cover, and even adding some more long range fire. And if you go sword/board knight, the WL can help clear the way or again tie up other units to help prevent the WK from being overwhelmed and attritiond down. If you favor the ranged version of knight, some WL on field can again screen and protect, intercepting chargers, blocking out tough units and "taking one for the team". At the very least it's another threat on table. If they ignore it - it can hurt. If they focus it down, that's something else Likley more dangerous that gets another turn to be dangerous.

The WL is a force multiplier, rather then a solo rockstar.

So that explains all my troubles in playing lords. I've always wanted my lord to be the center point of my list but as your describing it the lords best place in a list is support used to thwart danger away from other units. And yeah, my knight died to a powerfist as my opponent was complaining about how op the wraithknight is. It did soak up two rounds of shooting though because I made all but one fnp.

I have always used WLs as a big, scary distracting bullet sink to keep the attention away from more valuable, killy units. They are not especially expensive, and they are somewhat threatening to other mid-size solos.

In the current environment, people have caught on that they aren't that scary and they are too slow to be especially effective.

They are slow. (Well slower then jump or flying...) Which is why using them in ynarri army and soulbursting them from psychic power makes them a nice surprise. That Or battle focus from wraithhost formation. Plus it's kind of fluffy, having a knight, lord and guard/blades in one army.

It really depends on your meta. In more laid back or fluffy metas they can do fine, but if you're in a cutthroat tournament meta they're just gonna get annihilated. The prevalence of lascannons, Earthshakers, Medusas, Force weapons, Stomp and D weapons ensures that.

For everyone looking at this post I'm starting a new post for crowdsourcing some data. I've learned a lot about why I face certain hurdles like marines, necrons and it's, some of it is my play style and some of it is fixed odds. So check it out it'll be in this forum.