Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Martel732 wrote:
"If you ever faced a lib council space marine army with it. It's basically a guaranteed ability and just excessively broken. "

I have. But they still lost.

Great example I've faced a multiple wraithknight and spider spam army an won as well does that mean wraithknights aren't undercosted. Less strawman arguments.

 Marmatag wrote:
I voted yes, but with the caveat that they're not automatic.

Like, I should have a way to impact that.

Namely, the psychic phase should be the primary way to enable a first turn charge.

For instance, Infiltrate + Scout Move + Fulmination + Charge is a totally valid combo to create a first turn charge.

What should NOT happen, is "i'm deploying, and now charging," without any effort, or ability for your opponent to respond. In the psychic phase there is the opportunity to deny / fail the power, so it's not guaranteed and your opponent gets to respond.

Honestly, I don't believe that anyone has a serious shot at preventing Electro Displacement "in the psychic phase".
The SM player can just re-roll 2+ any number of charges without any hassle and basically limit failed ED to 1-3% of the time, even with the opponent having "the opportunity to deny".

Since switching over to Chaos I've often been angling for the first turn charge. It's easy to get across the table quickly, but still costs a lot of points, a bit of luck and a number of units to get an actual assault. IMO that's an ok tradeoff.

The SkyhammerAF is worse for the game. It's more like a push-button strike-charge, and comes with other benefits like the Relentless Devs.

 rawne2510 wrote:
That depends on how much shooting you have. KDK and butcher horde formation probably don´t have that much shooting available to them. I know that my Slaanesh incursion doesn´t have any shooting except in the psychic phase (Fateweaver is my go to shooting monster)

So, you have no support for your assault infantry, and are mad that you can't deal with bubble wrap? You know you can ally in Knights, renagade guard or csm right?

morgoth wrote:

Honestly, I don't believe that anyone has a serious shot at preventing Electro Displacement "in the psychic phase".

I tend to agree. Some armies might have a bonus or easier deny, but for most it's really not likely to happen, especially when there are other more immediately dangerous powers being cast.

Martel732 wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
We're WAY past the point were a first turn charge is in any form game breaking. Even if shooting wasn't so broken in comparison, it would still be fine.
With all the possibilities we have now it's still not easy to get a T1 assault.

Isn't Electro Displacement very easy to get a T1 assault?

As in how could you possibly fail to assault T1 with that deathstar?

Electro Displacement is a randomly generated Psychic Discipline, if Lady Luck decides to spit in your face you can take a full Mlv2 Libby Conclave or Wyrdstorm Brotherhood and not get it on any of them. The joy of dice.

My personal opinion is if you can Shoot a unit off the table on the first turn opponents with the ability to Assault you off the table on the first turn is about as fair as it gets.

Try not getting electro displacement with tigurius in the conclave, I dare you.

I've already managed, it's one of the reasons I rate psychic trees by their Primaris Power.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jaxler wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
I'm alright with it as long as it's not "well my guys deepstrike into your deployment zone and assault you", I like at least trying to have a tactical part of the game and deployment actually mattering.

Even though "Well my shooty guys deep strike into your deployment zone and obliterate everything around their LZ" is a thing?

Shooting allows for cover, and doesn't lock units down until it's resolved, and allows for cover saves, going to ground, and doesn't end with sweeping advances.

Shooting also can only target a single unit, you can Multicharge the world if it's within 12 inches

Your melta guys will not delete a riptide after deep striking, your 10 assault marines however tie it down for 5 turns of CC if they get in cc.

Charging is extremely potent at removing units from play. Getting a beat stick in CC is always going to remove the other unit from play regardless of the result. Shooting isn't ususally an all or nothing proposition. There are several reasons why deep strike charging is very different from shooting when considering balance.

Also do you really want every unit in the game to be able to shoot and then charge after deep strike? It would really make eldar tau and marines better more than anyone else.

Charging allows for responses like Overwatch.
The most powerful melee unit in the game can be completely thwarted for a turn by being blocked by the cheapest unit in the game.
Those ten deepstriking marines -assuming they don't get deleted on arrival by Tau EWO can be blocked by 25 points of Gue'vesa, shot at in Overwatch then blasted by whatever happens to be about when the Gue'vesa break and run and the Marines stop and stare about for a turn.

Gue'vesa aren't legal, and you can shoot the unit in front of the target with other units to get them out of the way. You people talk like guards can't be delt with before the assault phase.

They've already done their job and created a 13" charge, though. You can't get rid of them in the movement phase, which is all that matters.

A 13 inch charge inside a 12 inch deployment zone? I'm fairly certain that in most missions this won't work. Also, if they have all their valued targets bubble wrapped with trash infantry they're probably slow moving blobs that can't get objectives. How many armies can actually afford to flood enough bodies to create a foot bubble around valued targets without losing its ability to shoot well or to contest objectives? If they paid the premium needed for 100 guardsmen, then by all means itd be unfair if you could negate their bubble wrap abilities.

Most armies won't be able to bubble wrap everything in their army though, and your deep striking armies shouldn't be able assault units before they react.

Also tank shocking with an asssult vehicle can help with the bubble wrap, even if this doesn't work from deep strike.

gungo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"If you ever faced a lib council space marine army with it. It's basically a guaranteed ability and just excessively broken. "

I have. But they still lost.

Great example I've faced a multiple wraithknight and spider spam army an won as well does that mean wraithknights aren't undercosted. Less strawman arguments.

My point is that you can set up and make them first turn charge garbage and then kill them. Or tarpit them. Or whatever. If your objection is unkillable death stars, that's an unkillable death star problem, not first turn charges.

"A 13 inch charge inside a 12 inch deployment zone? I'm fairly certain that in most missions this won't work. Also, if they have all their valued targets bubble wrapped with trash infantry they're probably slow moving blobs that can't get objectives. How many armies can actually afford to flood enough bodies to create a foot bubble around valued targets without losing its ability to shoot well or to contest objectives? If they paid the premium needed for 100 guardsmen, then by all means itd be unfair if you could negate their bubble wrap abilities.

Most armies won't be able to bubble wrap everything in their army though, and your deep striking armies shouldn't be able assault units before they react."

Even making it an 8" charge through cover probably saves you, though. If you block with a cheap vehicle, they have to explode it to clear it out of the way. That's pretty rare in 7th.

There's nothing wrong with a lib council using electrodisplacement to first turn charge.

The amount of effort involved in making that charge happen is very high.

1. Librarius Conclave - while not required, it does help as you harness on 2+, making the deny very difficult, but it's *still possible* to deny and/or fail the power. A large amount of resources to commit to getting that first turn charge.

2. Something to electrodisplace. You need to have an infiltrator with a scout move to make this reliable, or something with a teleport move / shunt like a dreadknight.

3. Finally, a unit that is so strong and points intensive - which includes one of your librarians - that it can actually survive being effectively cut off from the rest of your army for at least a turn after the charge.

That situation is wholly different from, "set up, deploy, charge," if you are in the camp of the process above being illegal, then there is no fathomable way to support any first turn charge.

I just don't see the harm in someone committing an insane amount of resources to a first turn charge like this. However, bouncing out of a drop pod and charging turn 1 is ridiculously strong. Unless there is a mechanism to deal with tarpitting this would be so broken it's ridiculous.

 Marmatag wrote:
There's nothing wrong with a lib council using electrodisplacement to first turn charge.

The amount of effort involved in making that charge happen is very high.

1. Librarius Conclave - while not required, it does help as you harness on 2+, making the deny very difficult, but it's *still possible* to deny and/or fail the power. A large amount of resources to commit to getting that first turn charge.

2. Something to electrodisplace. You need to have an infiltrator with a scout move to make this reliable, or something with a teleport move / shunt like a dreadknight.

3. Finally, a unit that is so strong and points intensive - which includes one of your librarians - that it can actually survive being effectively cut off from the rest of your army for at least a turn after the charge.

That situation is wholly different from, "set up, deploy, charge," if you are in the camp of the process above being illegal, then there is no fathomable way to support any first turn charge.

Also, if they are all fishing for electrodisplacement, that means they probably don't have invis. That was the case when I faced it, and my drop pod fragnought on my turn 1 killed much of the conclave. Then they got charged by DC. It went downhill from there.

Martel732 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
There's nothing wrong with a lib council using electrodisplacement to first turn charge.

The amount of effort involved in making that charge happen is very high.

1. Librarius Conclave - while not required, it does help as you harness on 2+, making the deny very difficult, but it's *still possible* to deny and/or fail the power. A large amount of resources to commit to getting that first turn charge.

2. Something to electrodisplace. You need to have an infiltrator with a scout move to make this reliable, or something with a teleport move / shunt like a dreadknight.

3. Finally, a unit that is so strong and points intensive - which includes one of your librarians - that it can actually survive being effectively cut off from the rest of your army for at least a turn after the charge.

That situation is wholly different from, "set up, deploy, charge," if you are in the camp of the process above being illegal, then there is no fathomable way to support any first turn charge.

Also, if they are all fishing for electrodisplacement, that means they probably don't have invis. That was the case when I faced it, and my drop pod fragnought on my turn 1 killed much of the conclave. Then they got charged by DC. It went downhill from there.

Well, he rolls them one at a time. So as soon as he gets Electrodisplacement, he can start rolling for something else.

How many libbies are we talking here? Because then you have to fish for invis. There is only a 50% chance that electrodisplacement will show up in the first four rolls. Seems fair to me.

Exactly. There's a huge trade off with ED. It's not a problem as a first turn charge mechanism. The amount of points you spend to make it happen are absurd.

Martel732 wrote:
How many libbies are we talking here? Because then you have to fish for invis. There is only a 50% chance that electrodisplacement will show up in the first four rolls. Seems fair to me.

Yeah, you need quite a few. Having failed to get my target power with 9 total Mastery Levels it's by no means a guaranteed thing. That said, I managed to get Soulswitch (Electro-disp for Chaos) twice and Ghost Storm, THEN got Invisibility in my last battle.

The swings of generating powers are really large.

Yes, they are. I think powers should have point values, honestly. Invis should be like 150, or modified to ITC rules, and even then, it's at least 50 pts.

150 points is a lot. You mean that on top of the cost of the psyker?

Or perhaps a psyker gives you some "free points" to spend on purchasing powers, and you can spend extra points if you want.


So say you have a Level 2 Librarian. He gives you 150 free points(75 per mastery level) to spend on psychic powers from the disciplines he has access to. You may also spend additional real points to add more powers if you want.

Yes. 150 on top of the psyker. Immortality should be expensive. It's frequently not expensive enough in this game. Stimtides, screamerstars, wolfstars, smashfether, etc. All functionally immortal. All undercosted badly.

GodDamUser wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
With the way close combat works, turn 1 charges are not good things for the game.

The ability to lock actions and prevent movement, hide from shooting, hit vehicles on rear armor, break and destroy units without having to kill them to the last man, ignore cover saves, etc is extremely powerful, which is the reward for CC being harder to engage over shooting. Being able to pull that off Turn 1 can absolutely ruin games before someone has a chance to do anything.

But as I said you generally will know if your opponent has the ability to get a T1 Charge off, so you will have more then enough chance to deploy effectively to counter it.

Not your opponents fault if you are bad at the game

This assumes that all armies have adequate counters, they do not, particularly without tailoring, and you don't always know its coming.

Martel732 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
With the way close combat works, turn 1 charges are not good things for the game.

The ability to lock actions and prevent movement, hide from shooting, hit vehicles on rear armor, break and destroy units without having to kill them to the last man, ignore cover saves, etc is extremely powerful, which is the reward for CC being harder to engage over shooting. Being able to pull that off Turn 1 can absolutely ruin games before someone has a chance to do anything.

Disagree. Only if you let it.

again, not every army is capablr of dynamically dealing with that, many require tailored lists to deal with that. Particularly when the game has gone out of its way to disallow such things for most of its existence and only introduced them either unintentionally or as power gimmicks.

Amishprn86 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
With the way close combat works, turn 1 charges are not good things for the game.

The ability to lock actions and prevent movement, hide from shooting, hit vehicles on rear armor, break and destroy units without having to kill them to the last man, ignore cover saves, etc is extremely powerful, which is the reward for CC being harder to engage over shooting. Being able to pull that off Turn 1 can absolutely ruin games before someone has a chance to do anything.

What would ruin a game faster for someone? A few units turn 1 charge, Or playing against Ynnari with 4 WK's, 6 units of scatter bikes (as troops) and 4 10pts HQ's. Giving your WK's and Bikes 2x shooting power

I would rather have turn 1 charges......

Anyways turn 1 charging only works if you miss deploy. You can place throw away units in front of your important ones (This is called screening or bubble wrapping)
You can place IN terrain or inside builds, up high. If you they are vehicles you can place behind LoS/Impassible terrain to force them to move 6+ more inches.

One thing being broken doesnt excuse another, lots of stuff is broken, doesnt mean other stuff cant also be. The game fundamentally doesnt deal with turn1 charges well and many armies arent adapted to deal with that.

"many require tailored lists to deal with that. "

Every army has access to cheap, expendable crap.

Martel732 wrote:
"many require tailored lists to deal with that. "

Every army has access to cheap, expendable crap.

Grey Knights say hi.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"many require tailored lists to deal with that. "

Every army has access to cheap, expendable crap.

Grey Knights say hi.

They are the ones who knock, though. And they've got cheap henchmen, too, I think. Make people charge into your deathcult assassins.

Martel732 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"many require tailored lists to deal with that. "

Every army has access to cheap, expendable crap.

Grey Knights say hi.

They are the ones who knock, though. And they've got cheap henchmen, too, I think. Make people charge into your deathcult assassins.

Inquisition and grey Knights are not the same army. They'll shoot your assassins too, and kill them with bullets as they're about as tough as as paper. If your running an assault squad of henchmen, you need a land raider, at which point your not cheap. Also ten man acolyte squads are cheap, but they won't block enough to bubble wrap effectively.

Have you looked at most assault lists? Bullets really aren't their thing. They spend all their points on assaulting. Of course, there's always skyhammer, yes.

Henchmen are not in the GK codex. So unless you're taking allies GKs don't have cheap expendable dudes. That was 2 codices ago.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Henchmen are not in the GK codex. So unless you're taking allies GKs don't have cheap expendable dudes. That was 2 codices ago.

It all kind of runs together with them. Fortunately, GK are not usually concerned about being charged.

I know many many GK players who don't use Inquisition. Inquisition stuff mostly seems to be used as allies for IG or other marine codices.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I know many many GK players who don't use Inquisition. Inquisition stuff mostly seems to be used as allies for IG or other marine codices.

I mean my knowledge of the codices. It runs together. I forget that they lost their lackeys in the most recent codex. Still, though, you guys should welcome it.

I was happy they finally separated them. its Codex Grey Knights, not Codex Daemon Hunters anymore. But I am bummed they took away some of the more interesting wargear. Gimme back my Rad and Psychotrope grenades you thieves!

Psyammo should feth up demons really bad. The dumbest match up in the whole game is how badly demons curb stomp GKs.

At any rate, there's nothing you can do with a first turn charge that Tau and Eldar already can't do by existing.

 Marmatag wrote:
There's nothing wrong with a lib council using electrodisplacement to first turn charge.

The amount of effort involved in making that charge happen is very high.

1. Librarius Conclave - while not required, it does help as you harness on 2+, making the deny very difficult, but it's *still possible* to deny and/or fail the power. A large amount of resources to commit to getting that first turn charge.

2. Something to electrodisplace. You need to have an infiltrator with a scout move to make this reliable, or something with a teleport move / shunt like a dreadknight.

3. Finally, a unit that is so strong and points intensive - which includes one of your librarians - that it can actually survive being effectively cut off from the rest of your army for at least a turn after the charge.

That situation is wholly different from, "set up, deploy, charge," if you are in the camp of the process above being illegal, then there is no fathomable way to support any first turn charge.

I just don't see the harm in someone committing an insane amount of resources to a first turn charge like this. However, bouncing out of a drop pod and charging turn 1 is ridiculously strong. Unless there is a mechanism to deal with tarpitting this would be so broken it's ridiculous.

There's a reason it was banned from ITC. It's the most broken thing in the game since at least 4th edition.

Well that's a crazy position when scatbikes exist. And Riptides. And Stormsurges. And WK. And battlecompany.