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Death Company Sanguinius. There's a pants-gakkingly horrifying concept if I ever heard one.
Much as I would prefer him not to come back, wouldn't this be the most Grimdark think ever?
The Angel of Perfection returning as a gibbering wreck of a man who the Blood Angels can only look on with sorrow and disgust. He would be the mirror of Robute to lead the mirror Imperium, Sanguinus the Mad King as opposed to Roboute the acolyte of logic .
His form just as flawless as always but his mind completely destroyed, perhaps they even lock him up like The Man in the Iron Mask and feed him blood through the mouth slit!
If Sanguinius did return this would be the only method I would be content with. I see in my mind's eye, Sanguinius, with golden hair and darkened wings, wearing armour of red and black, darkness and bloodlust filling his eyes, blood dripping from his hands and mouth, a twisted and broken version of the Angel he used to be.
Similarly I'd like to see Leman Russ come back but only as a Wulfen version. Degenerated, feral and bestial, attacking anyone on site, the only fragment of who he once was being that he hunts Magnus and the Thousand Sons across the star. (Think Black Flash from the CW's Arrowverse)
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Lobukia wrote: Wait?! What?! Seriously. Have you guys just never read any Blood Angel codex ever? Ignored the Swallow books completely?! Do you really come to a lore conversation knowing absolutely nothing of the actual lore you're taking about. Because in 2005 we got beat you over your head, can't miss it if you're literate, short of a neon sign, foreshadowing of "Horus might go bad" level obvious warnings that Sanguinius wasn't staying dead. If you missed this TWELVE YEAR HINT DROPPED EVEYWHERE, often, posted on walls, mentioned consistently in multiple unit summaries, chapter materials, codices, short stories, and the actual name of a unit... you forfeit the right to converse about fluff in a fluff rich game.
I mean they flat out told you he was coming back. If this caught you off guard, go watch Scooby Doo episodes, I bet the end will shock you every time.
Let me make the same call everyone could make 12 years and 4 editions ago... Sanguinius is coming back or at least Azkaellon will be reformed as Sanguinius reborn. The retcon will be if he doesn't
No. 40k used to be setting for you to make up your own stories. Those were just plot hooks for players to use if they wanted.
It's only now that current GW mixed terms setting and story and decided ignore what 40k was to make a cash grab.
moving the story forward isn't going to have much impact on "your dudes" unless your army is Ultramarines, Blood Angels, or another cannon chapter/army you're not going to be impacted by things much if at all.
My "Emperor's Pink Marines" chapter fighting in my local gaming scene in the "local club sector" isn't going to be that impacted by Cadia falling. the space wolves losing their home etc. the 40k setting is so LARGE GW can do story stuff, with LOTS of room in the margins and cracks for us to fill in with our imagination.
I used to play Battletech, I stopped actively playing it because of the speed of the setting changes, the differance is that the setting consists of basicly 2000 worlds, and the writers in their "wisdom" decided to nuke the Mercenary recruiting world.
the changes to 40k? sure they're big but for most of us they're also pretty much ignorable.
I'm personally rather hyped for the story possibilities involving the dark side of the imperium. A Wild West of chaos and danger appeals to my love of Siri westerns.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure Sanguinius is dead.
I love me some BAngels, but I really don't think one of the deadest Primarchs can come back. His death is a strong, story driven thing in the setting. Reviving him would feel pretty weak and make his sacrifice quite pointless.
There are also plenty of other Primarchs who are are missing rather than dead, who'll most likely be the ones who'll return if they want to bring any more back.
I think this whole setup of the BAngels being "doomed" is to allow for them to be upgraded to Primaris marines, including Dante getting an epic new figure in the new swishbang armour.
Tiberius501 wrote: Yeah, I'm pretty sure Sanguinius is dead.
I love me some BAngels, but I really don't think one of the deadest Primarchs can come back. His death is a strong, story driven thing in the setting. Reviving him would feel pretty weak and make his sacrifice quite pointless.
There are also plenty of other Primarchs who are are missing rather than dead, who'll most likely be the ones who'll return if they want to bring any more back.
I think this whole setup of the BAngels being "doomed" is to allow for them to be upgraded to Primaris marines, including Dante getting an epic new figure in the new swishbang armour.
Just my opinion though.
I respectfully disagree.
Sanginius's sacrifice isn't cheapened by his (possible) return, at all. At least not in my mind.
Bear in mind, Sanguinius went in to face Horus alone, knowing that it would likely cost him his life. Here's the thing, though.
Horus and Sanguinius were best friends, as well as brother primarchs. They respected each other, deeply, and more than that, they loved each other as brothers, as surely as any two blood brothers would. Sanguinius was able to get along with all of his brothers to some extent or another, but there was a closeness with Horus that is very evident in the Horus Heresy books.
Sanguinius was gifted with prophetic sight. He could see the various ways that he would likely die if he faced Horus alone on the Vengeful Spirit's bridge. Still, what if he saw more than just his death? What if he saw, at least, even one strand of possibility that he might be able to save Horus, to bring his brother and best friend back from damnation and save his life. He took that one, all but impossible chance. He saw that among thousands, maybe even hundreds of thousands of possible outcomes, maybe one chance to save his brother existed.
For Sanguinius, that was enough. He faced his brother, intent on saving Horus, or he would die trying. To see with his own eyes if his brother Horus could be saved and, if possible, Sanguinius would face and save him. That's why the gene curse is so strong in the Children of the Angel born after his death. The pain of failing Horus, and the Emperor, of being unable to save him mixed with the rage of his brother betraying and killing him. Sanguinius's last moment, his last thought was likely one of anger, and pain, both at Horus for turning his back on their friendship and bond, and at himself for failing to save Horus, and beating the odds. That rage, the pain, and anguish was imprinted into his very genes, and his progeny have paid the price for 10 millennia. That's why Sanguinius is my favorite primarch. He laid down his life for someone he cared about. His brother. His friend. Even in the face of such overwhelming odds against achieving it, he still reached for that 1% chance to save Horus, knowing what waited for him was death, or worse, if he failed.
Sanguinius returning would cheapen the setting no more than Guilliman being resurrected has. It would only add more to the story, and give another character to face the coming storm of events.
That's just my opinion on that. Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
You don't know me son, so I'll explain this to you once: If I ever kill you, you'll be awake, you'll be facing me, and you'll be armed.
I would say that guilliman being resurrected has cheapened the setting, though. Its gone from the age of the imperium to the age of the second great crusade. That's a major shift in underlying premise.
As for sanguinius returning, i think you'll get your wish.
Tiberius501 wrote: Yeah, I'm pretty sure Sanguinius is dead.
I love me some BAngels, but I really don't think one of the deadest Primarchs can come back. His death is a strong, story driven thing in the setting. Reviving him would feel pretty weak and make his sacrifice quite pointless.
There are also plenty of other Primarchs who are are missing rather than dead, who'll most likely be the ones who'll return if they want to bring any more back.
I think this whole setup of the BAngels being "doomed" is to allow for them to be upgraded to Primaris marines, including Dante getting an epic new figure in the new swishbang armour.
Just my opinion though.
I respectfully disagree.
Sanginius's sacrifice isn't cheapened by his (possible) return, at all. At least not in my mind.
Bear in mind, Sanguinius went in to face Horus alone, knowing that it would likely cost him his life. Here's the thing, though.
Horus and Sanguinius were best friends, as well as brother primarchs. They respected each other, deeply, and more than that, they loved each other as brothers, as surely as any two blood brothers would. Sanguinius was able to get along with all of his brothers to some extent or another, but there was a closeness with Horus that is very evident in the Horus Heresy books.
Sanguinius was gifted with prophetic sight. He could see the various ways that he would likely die if he faced Horus alone on the Vengeful Spirit's bridge. Still, what if he saw more than just his death? What if he saw, at least, even one strand of possibility that he might be able to save Horus, to bring his brother and best friend back from damnation and save his life. He took that one, all but impossible chance. He saw that among thousands, maybe even hundreds of thousands of possible outcomes, maybe one chance to save his brother existed.
For Sanguinius, that was enough. He faced his brother, intent on saving Horus, or he would die trying. To see with his own eyes if his brother Horus could be saved and, if possible, Sanguinius would face and save him. That's why the gene curse is so strong in the Children of the Angel born after his death. The pain of failing Horus, and the Emperor, of being unable to save him mixed with the rage of his brother betraying and killing him. Sanguinius's last moment, his last thought was likely one of anger, and pain, both at Horus for turning his back on their friendship and bond, and at himself for failing to save Horus, and beating the odds. That rage, the pain, and anguish was imprinted into his very genes, and his progeny have paid the price for 10 millennia. That's why Sanguinius is my favorite primarch. He laid down his life for someone he cared about. His brother. His friend. Even in the face of such overwhelming odds against achieving it, he still reached for that 1% chance to save Horus, knowing what waited for him was death, or worse, if he failed.
Sanguinius returning would cheapen the setting no more than Guilliman being resurrected has. It would only add more to the story, and give another character to face the coming storm of events.
That's just my opinion on that. Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
But that's what I mean, his death means so much in the fluff, including the stepping stone for the Emperor going all out and killing Horus, and to cursing his children now. His failure literally costed everything he held dear. It just feels a little odd to be like, "aaaand he's not actually dead folks!"
It'd be like bringing Ned Stark back in GoT after his death meant so much to the Stark children and essentially driving the rest of the story. Bringing him back would cheapen his death, just the same as I believe bringing Sanguinius back would cheapen his.
Again, just my thoughts on it.
That's just it, he is dead. I'm not advocating he doesn't/didn't die. I'd be miffed if they retconned it so Sanguinius doesn't die as well. Not enough to flip the table per-se, but it would irk me.
It's him returning from the dead and dealing with all the fallout that his death caused. Grappling, as Guilliman has, with the reality of the universe while he was dead, and coming to terms with not only how his death effected his son's, but the universe as a whole, and in addition to that, finding a way to hold back the black rage in himself.
I find this concept immensely interesting, especially with Sanguinius being the de-facto leader of the Dark Imperium. Severed from his brother Guilliman and the rest of the Imperium, he has to wrestle with darkness all around him, as well as inside himself. This would test his resolve, and his nobility, even more than his fight with Horus did.
The difference between Ned Stark in GoT, and Sanguinius in 40k, is that Sanguinius's death has echoed through the story, specifically the Blood Angels, for millennia, but it hasn't driven them to meet ends like the Starks in GoT. It's simply a part of history in the 40k universe. It's a past event, so far removed that it's become the stuff of legend and rumor more than proper history. Everyone respects Sanguinius, everyone reveres him, but that reverence and respect would not diminish with his return. If nothing else it would be like a beacon of hope to many, especially those trapped in the Dark Imperium.
I'm not going to speculate on what GW will do or how the story is going to progress from here. I only know what I've read in stories of 40k and based on what I'm seeing, and the foreshadowing that has taken place over the last several months, the tea leaves seem to be trending toward this direction. Not that they'll wind up here, but the possibility exists, I think.
I totally get where you're coming from Tiberius, and respect your position completely. You may very well be right also.
We'll see, in time, I suppose.
Take it easy, and good discussion also may I say in closing.
-Red__Thirst-
You don't know me son, so I'll explain this to you once: If I ever kill you, you'll be awake, you'll be facing me, and you'll be armed.
Torga_DW wrote: I think the best (most humourous?) way to bring him back is just to bring him back and not talk about it. Sorta like one of those old x-files episodes where mulder dies at the end of one episode (or is about to get an arm cut off or something) and then the next episode he's all well and good and they *just* *don't* *talk* *about* *it*.
Yes, I would love to take it a step further than that and say that Sanguinius was just there the entire time and was the only primarch that never died or went missing, and yet all of the terrible things that led to the 41st millenium still happened, and every time anyone brings it up Sanguinius and his proponents just dodge the question, until finally, years after this change is made to the setting, it's revealed that Sanguinius is Alpharius. And I'm not talking an impersonation. I mean they were both the same person the entire time.
It's gonna be great
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/19 07:27:56
Draco wrote: Maybe Sanguinius comes back but a demon like Saint Celestine?
Thinking about it, who'd be a better rep of the god emperor who's gone to the warp than the son who died for him. Greater demon of the emperor ascendant or some such? Who knew there was so much you could do with a ten thousand year old corpse.
from a fluff perspective I would be annoyed as it would trivialize a pivotal moment in he books and suddenly death is not death it is just not being there right now until ynarri decides to bring you back (except hours, hard to make destroyed mind body and soul better)
from a game board perspective I am not looking forward to having to face a primarch in every single battle against any space marines chapter. forging the narrative... on a backwater world of little importance a beacon has awoken emitting a strange signal heard across several systems around it, upon hearing of it The elder dispatched a aspect host to investigate, the tau sent exploratory force, the necrons nearby awoken from their tombworld have sent a nightlord and some warriors...the imperium has dispatched a small group of imperial guard supported by a few squads of space marines... plus a primarch
Sanguinius coming back should be pretty apparent to everyone.
In a setting with souls and magic being dead is hardly the stopper in the bottle.
As one of the most iconic Primarchs, Sangunius isn't going to be staying gone. How he will come back is a bigger question. Will he come back as a ghost or daemon type being? Have a bodily resurrection? As a liquid avatar of pure blood?
Draco wrote: Maybe Sanguinius comes back but a demon like Saint Celestine?
Thinking about it, who'd be a better rep of the god emperor who's gone to the warp than the son who died for him. Greater demon of the emperor ascendant or some such? Who knew there was so much you could do with a ten thousand year old corpse.
thats an intreasting point, I mean, with all the Angelic icongraphy etc surrounding Sanguinis, would it REALLY be that much of a stretch for him to become "Space Jesus"?
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
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Homebrew Chaos: The Black Suns; A Medrengard Militia (think Iron Warriors-centric Blood Pact/Sons of Sek)
Red__Thirst wrote: I think people are forgetting a very important caveat regarding Sanguinius, the Blood Angels, and the gene curse of the Black Rage.
The entire reason for the black rage was the horrific death of Sanguinius at the hands of his brother and closest friend, Horus. This act of savagery on Horus's part was so traumatic, both physically and psychically, it left a wound in Sanguinius's very genes.
That's why, when they harvested Sanguinius's blood and geneseed to rebuild the chapter, they inadvertently created, or enhanced, the Black Rage and created the flaw that we see today in the Blood Angels.
If Sanguinius was revived, do you not think that he, too, would suffer the effects of the Black Rage along with his Sons? He's the very source of it in the Blood Angels, there's no way he would be unaffected. He revives, and has to fight as hard, or harder, to keep the rage at bay. Perhaps learning from Mephiston, and to a lesser extent, Dante, how they have beaten and resisted the rage, respectively.
Can you imagine what kind of damage Sanguinius could do if he fell to the Black Rage? Death Company Sanguinius. There's a pants-gakkingly horrifying concept if I ever heard one.
Just saying, there are lots of options and plot advancement you can get out of the resurrection of Sanguinius. It isn't likely, even I admit that, but it is possible and more than that, it's plausible, and that's what matters.
Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
He always had it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Unless I'm thinking about the Red Thirst.
He had one of the two, I'm sure.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/20 05:34:48
123ply: Dataslate- 4/4/3/3/1/3/1/8/6+
Autopistol, Steel Extendo, Puma Hoodie
USRs: "Preferred Enemy: Xenos"
"Hatred: Xenos"
"Racist and Proud of it" - Gains fleshbane, rending, rage, counter-attack, and X2 strength and toughness when locked in combat with units not in the "Imperium of Man" faction.
That's correct. Sanguinius had some kind of fury/rage/anger issues that made him the target of Khorne on at least one occasion during the 30k/preheresy era.
7000 
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AM/IG - 122nd Terrax Guard: 2094/3000pts
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Khorne Daemonkin - Host of the Nervous Knife: 1701/2000pts
Orks - Rampage Axez: 1753/2000pts 