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 DrNo172000 wrote:

However, let's consider it is. Does that mean the LGS can still survive with a MAP. I'm not so certain, gaming, especially board games and RPGs is growing rapidly. The large chains have begun to notice, Barnes & Nobles host a yearly play day across most of it's stores and many stores have implemented regular board game nights. Board games cafe's are picking up in popularity in the west coast.

A local gaming/sci-fi store supported itself for over a decade by having an in-store restaurant. Gaming cafes are a thing I can see working, much like a bar that runs pool tables to sell drinks.

I'm not in favor of a race to the bottom with regards to prices on games. Yes, I want the hobby to be accessible to a broad audience, but at the same time I don't want to see a drop in the quality of product that the top tier board/war gaming companies produce if they decide they have to chase slim margins. I'm old enough to remember when comic books decided that selling on cheap, crappy paper with garbage color and books full of ads was a business model that wasn't working and went to glossy paper with ink saturation and next to no ads - the price shot up, but the product was far better for it. Artists had more time to draw and color thanks to the increased income, and the comic book market took off for a good while. Of course it got bloated and excessive soon enough, but that's the way these things go.

There's more than one economic model that works. Tiny margins and huge volumes is one, but I don't think wargaming will ever be so popular that the sales volume can support that kind of economic model. Right now we're not quite in the 'luxury goods' model, despite GW's best efforts, but we are still stuck in the boutique hobby end of the spectrum rather than the mainstream hobby zone.

Note that there's good reason that game makers might not want to engage the broader market - big retail companies can be incredibly predatory in some regards. Up here in Ontario there's an ice cream maker (Kawartha) that makes fantastic ice cream, but you won't find it in most larger retailers. Why not? Those retailers demand a certain level of supply, which requires you to invest huge amounts of money in equipment and labor. Suddenly, the supermarket has the supplier by the nuts - if they stop buying, you can't afford all the shiny new stuff you've bought and you go out of business. So suddenly they're stuck selling at razor thin margins just to keep the doors open.

Kawartha wasn't willing to engage on those terms, so they sell to smaller, independent grocery stores for the most part. Most game manufacturers don't have the cash flow or reserves to play at that level of retail and come out unscathed.

This is only MAPP, it only effects what stores can advertise. A LGS can still discount them in store, but they cannot advertise the products with the lower price outside the store.

 LunarSol wrote:

I'd actually recommend looking into economics; even if you're not the business type. I'm surely not, but its pretty fascinating to read up on and see how it all works... or doesn't, as the case may be. In any case, its pretty humbling to look into the numbers and get an idea just how many copies of something generally has to be sold to even make minimum wage. If I've learned anything, its that I really don't envy anyone trying to make a living out of this industry and when it comes to things like MAPs, the reasons are far more reaching than just the increased cost to me as the consumer.

So very, very true. Kickstarter is a great window into the economic realities of breaking into the gaming market, where $100K is basically required to produce a decent game at a fair value, and only once you've fulfilled the Kickstarter can you actually start to make a lick of profit from what amounts to a year or more of work. And then they have to compete with the resellers who backed the Kickstarter, and people who think because it was $50 on the Kickstarter that it should be at most $65 at retail, because everything was already paid for (except for that whole year of work sunk into the project, which is handily ignored).

 455_PWR wrote:
Otherwise I don't mind that news. Back the kickstarters or pay full retail is all it means, and why wouldn't one back their kickstarters with the (ebay) value of the additional content you get?

So don't back your "full retail" FLGS, but don't cry when you no longer have any nearby.

Also, the thread title tells us that the OP is a click-bait idiot, as *NO* company can demand that a US retailer can never, ever discount something or put something on sale. The only thing can that can be demanded is not selling below a certain discount level *all of the time*, as that can be seen to be damaging to the perceived product value, which is understandable *to a certain degree*. That being said, if a product is not selling, a retailer has every right to sell that turd *for whatever discount they want to* so as to move said turd out of their store and recoup their money and so put it back into stocking something else that will sell/be profitable.

ced1106 wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
I just wish they'd tell us what the MAPP is going to be already!!!

MAPP means Minimum *Advertised* Pricing Policy. Retailers can still sell the product at whatever discount, they just can't "advertise" it.

I know what "MAPP" means, I'm just wondering what CMON will set the MAPP to - in other words, what will be the max advertised discount allowed. You know, the MADA.

Probably 10%?

ced1106 wrote:

fwiw, Here's the Rising Sun Retail Pledge agreement: https://cmon.com/news/rising-sun-kickstarter-retail-pledge

I didn't see a MAPP listed in there...

Hmm.... shabbadoo you didn't read my entire post did you?

"don't think this will effect their board games (in fact it will help FLGS sales vs online sales)"

I am very pro flgs, and I know where my money is spent. If my flgs goes out of business then I will buy online. I dont actually play at my flgs though. Maybe don't be so quick to judge unless you read posts in entirety or know who you are speaking about

 Alpharius wrote:
I know what "MAPP" means, I'm just wondering what CMON will set the MAPP to - in other words, what will be the max advertised discount allowed. You know, the MADA.

Oops -- I posted the MAPP article because *other* Dakkanauts were starting to get out the pitchforks and torches.

The CMON retail link doesn't mention MAPP, but I thought the Dakkanauts avoiding the acorns falling from the sky would find useful an example of CMON terms to retailers for selling product.

Asmodee's pricing policy was also supposed to be the end of the world (at least on BGG). For myself, I haven't picked up the latest Eldritch Horror expansion, nor the Arkham Horror LCG. But I don't miss playing these games, since other companies, particularly on KS, are willing to give me a better value for my money. Has anyone here been that affected by Asmodee?

From ICv2:

https://icv2.com/articles/news/view/37589/cmon-inc-adopts-mapp

Reorients Hobby Distribution
Posted by Nicole Bunge on May 24, 2017 @ 6:01 am CT

CMON, Inc. will adopt a unilateral Minimum Advertised Pricing Policy (MAPP) beginning on June 1, 2017, and will also be restructuring its current hobby distribution network in the U.S., effective immediately.

In implementing the pricing restrictions on its new distribution network and retailers, CMON expects the perceived value of its products to be enhanced. CMON’s current hobby distribution network includes Alliance Game Distributors, ACD Distribution, and Peachstate Hobby Distribution (PHD).

The MAP policy will only apply to CMON’s own branded products within the U.S. All products with a Minimum Advertised Price will be included on a MAPP list on CMON’s website. All CMON product resellers must adhere to the MAPP, and CMON will strictly enforce prices.

CMON is joining a number of hobby game manufacturers addressing the channel conflict between brick-and-mortar and online retailers. Privateer Press introduced a policy last spring (see "Privateer Axes Offending Online Retailers"), joining Asmodee NA (Asmodee Editions, Days of Wonder, Fantasy Flight Games, Z-Man Games), Games Workshop, and Mayfair Games which all have policies to combat online discounting. [Update: Iello Games informed ICv2 that the company also recently adopted a MAP policy.]

Game store owner and marketing instructor Scott Thorne discussed MAP in his latest ICv2 column (see "Rolling for Initiative--Minimum Advertised Pricing").

See The Auld Grump - watch in amazement as he doesn't buy CMON games.

Marvel as he stops backing them on Kickstarter.

Gape in awe as he finds *GASP!* other games to play. (Mostly on Kickstarter....)

I like Zombicide, I am glad I bought it.

But I dislike MAPP enough that I will not be buying from CMON anymore - even when I can find them for a discount.

I no longer buy Privateer, Asmodee, or Fantasy Flight games, for that exact reason.

I am only now considering buying GW games again because they have loosened their stance a bit - and want to encourage that.

The Auld Grump

Inquiring minds (Mostly Alpharius ) want to know what that MAPP discount will be .

Agreed!

I'm saving any potential outrage until we see what the allowable discount (if any) will be.

It is just a MAPP policy, It isn't like they are going to go from store to store checking to make sure evry copy of their game is MSRP. They just don't want you doing an Ad campaign showing their stuff at Half Off.

It isn't like the Privateer Press policy that puts you on a blacklist if you sell online, or the Asmodee policy that raises your Wholesale prices if you sell online.

Except PP doesn't stop you from selling online?

 AduroT wrote:
Except PP doesn't stop you from selling online?

I was wondering about that, but not enough to get into a debate about it.

This is even funnier when you consider that CMON is basically the remnant of New Wave Games... and now they're railing against the scourge of online discounters.

Ah well at this point i lost my sorta maybe interest in ASOIF, Dark Age and Xenoshyft, so it does save me money in the long run.

If they ever did Rivet Wars Western front i would still bite, so i suppose its a good thing they strangled that game in the crib so I have moral consistency.

It is a shame about Rivet Wars, isn't it?

I wonder what happened there, and if we'll ever see more for that game...

I also wonder when we'll ever find out just what MAPP CMON is going to be setting for everything...!

Rivet Wars simply didn't sell well enough to support what all was put into it based on what I heard, and I'd bet there was some IP conflict if the creator wasn't willing to wholly sell it to CMON. That was all going on right when the Relic Knights stuff caused the split with Soda Pop Miniatures, so who knows.

 ThaneCawdor wrote:
This is even funnier when you consider that CMON is basically the remnant of New Wave Games... and now they're railing against the scourge of online discounters.

Ah well at this point i lost my sorta maybe interest in ASOIF, Dark Age and Xenoshyft, so it does save me money in the long run.

If they ever did Rivet Wars Western front i would still bite, so i suppose its a good thing they strangled that game in the crib so I have moral consistency.

There connection to New Wave Games is especially funny to me. Near the end/implosion of NWG my parents ordered me an army box of eldar and dark eldar for Christmas one year (3rd ed 40k, so the giant boxed armies). They sent us four army boxes. We tried to contact them for six months to return the extra army boxes and never had anyone answer the phone or return an email.

Now they are mad that people are selling things too cheaply.

The whole, "If a person buys it for less, they value it less" Is utter BS. Period.

People buy what they can afford.

Right now there's absolutely no reason to by a CMON game that isn't from Kickstarter or ebay for the extra content.

Welcome to lost sales.

 Alpharius wrote:
It is a shame about Rivet Wars, isn't it?

I wonder what happened there, and if we'll ever see more for that game...

I also wonder when we'll ever find out just what MAPP CMON is going to be setting for everything...!

Aww, Rivet Wars - I really liked that - I still have EVERYTHING from the first kickstarter though - which ought to be a lifetime's worth of variety if so wanted. I wouldn't think selling poorly at retail would dissuade them when the whole point of the KS is to self-fund the production.

The whole, "If a person buys it for less, they value it less" Is utter BS. Period.

People buy what they can afford.

Right now there's absolutely no reason to by a CMON game that isn't from Kickstarter or ebay for the extra content.

Welcome to lost sales.

To this I would add maybe the reason for this is the ABSURD number of kickstarter exclusives CMON pumps into every KS they do. I certainly wouldn't buy into one of their games at retail knowing that 30% of the content of the game (and often the coolest content) was unavailable to unless I was willing to be gouged for it on Ebay.

This puts you into a situation of "Buy into a $300 all-in pledge to get all the goodies from KS and wait 2 years for it" or "Buy the game at retail at twice the cost and with huge chunks of content unavailable to you." There needs to be a middle ground where you can buy a base game (+1-2 cool exclusives) from the KS and then buy reasonably priced expansion content later on. Would help "protect the market" a lot more than just trying to price fix and whatnot.

 Alpharius wrote:
I also wonder when we'll ever find out just what MAPP CMON is going to be setting for everything...!

MRP +5%?

Schmapdi wrote:
To this I would add maybe the reason for this is the ABSURD number of kickstarter exclusives CMON pumps into every KS they do.

I'm waiting for the pig to fly, myself, but it's possible that CMON may reduce or (gasp) end the exclusives for their games.

CMON has certainly made "retail-friendly" changes, ranging from retail-only games (eg. Grizzled, Godfather), to this MAP (it encourages retailer A to carry their product by discouraging retailer B from advertising it on sale). If you followed the Rising Sun KS, you may have noticed the Retailer Pledge policy. CMON removed the EB's from Rising Sun, and said they will do so for Zombicide: Green Horde. For their Game of Thrones miniatures games, they announced retailer-only expansions. Another poster said these changes may have to do with CMON now owned by investors. I'll also add that shipping costs have risen.

Stonemaier Games, with Charterstone, also moved from KS to retailers. So perhaps KS really is, by some companies, being "used as intended".

Perhaps Kickstarter should limit the number companies like Cmon and Mantic do a year. This would benefit the start up companies that KS was created for in the first place. The listed companies have Monopolized KS as a pre order system and take away funds from those trying to create. This would be a win win for Cmon as they could sell their product at the MAPP price they so desire!

Kickstarter has no desire to do this - especially for a company like CMON.

Watch how much the upcoming Zombicide: Green Tide makes Kickstarter...er..CMON!

@Alpharius, and therin lies the problem. It has removed the Spirit of KS and become Pre order monopoly so we receive wads of cash!. Since they make money they should have insurance for those KS that do not fulfill.

I am fully aware that GreenTide will do well and I hope it does as I will back it too. PP have set prices on their product but I respect them as they also use their own revenue to create more. Yes I know they did a KS but not every other month like Cmon.

 John Prins wrote:

 DrNo172000 wrote:

However, let's consider it is. Does that mean the LGS can still survive with a MAP. I'm not so certain, gaming, especially board games and RPGs is growing rapidly. The large chains have begun to notice, Barnes & Nobles host a yearly play day across most of it's stores and many stores have implemented regular board game nights. Board games cafe's are picking up in popularity in the west coast.

A local gaming/sci-fi store supported itself for over a decade by having an in-store restaurant. Gaming cafes are a thing I can see working, much like a bar that runs pool tables to sell drinks.

My FLGS does this. His store was a restaurant and another store beside it. He put a door in the joining wall to connect them, and kept the functioning kitchen from the restaurant. The front of the old restaurant is the retail space, and store next door is all gaming space. He doesn't serve complicated food - burgers, fries, pies, hot dogs, etc. Plus coffee, cold drinks and snacks. Stuff that can be cooked by anyone, so the regular staff can cook food.

Makes a real difference. Rather than stopping to get food on the way there or home, depending on what time you start or finish, you can just order lunch or dinner while gaming, and take 10 minutes out of the game while you eat if you were mid game. That alone makes people spend money at the store they wouldn't have. Also makes it really convenient if you're having a game in the evening.

I wish more stores did it, but I can understand the lack of kitchen space being limiting.

Ernster wrote:
@Alpharius, and therin lies the problem.

KS makes wads of cash. There is no problem.

Welll it will be interesting to see if this comes to the UK. PP did it with their goods and combined with the press hanger changes and upcoming price changes its decimated the game. The Grymkin release pricing is like s return to the bad old days of GW, £175 for 50 points of badly fitting metal and fubiousresun with a good chance parts are missing? Nope.....

Any retailer I've seen try sell cmon stuff full price in my area either sticks very little of it or has closed. The average KS bundle is the same price as uk retail boxed game!

PP isn't dieing because of the online pricing, that's more due to the bungled mk3 release and plethora of other Miniatures games around nowadays. I've not seen the prices on the Grym, but I'll definitely disput poor resin and missing parts. Their resin stuff is usually quite top notch, and I've rarely had issues with missing parts and when it does happen replacements are quick and easy.

Do we have any numbers or articles about how well MAP is doing for gaming and outside of gaming? WotC is doing MAP (?) and Asmodee has a different discount for online vs. brick and mortar (vs. Amazon and Walmart?).

I figure MAP and other price policies best for inelastic customers (I MUST BUY STAR WARS DESTINY) and poorly for elastic customers ("150 miniatures for $100!!!). At least for myself, if I can't get a deep discount for a CMON game at retail, I should have a game from another manufacturer I'll buy when it goes on sale. (I've already stopped buying FFG games.) On the unlikely chance that *all* manufacturers implement price policies, I already have a ton of games in the closet and miniatures to paint -- not to mention free and low-cost games available online. If I play all my games in the closet and paint all my miniatures and can't find any games from the 'net, well, I have two games of my own design I should be working on...