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Enigma of the Absolute wrote:

 Torga_DW wrote:

Well in fairness, they did ride pretty for several editions. There was just as much chance of them continuing their streak. Sadly, they rolled a 1 in the development phase.

I've seen it all with Eldar and they have a reputation for cheese that is only partially warranted. There was some definite cheese in 2nd which is where the reputation began. In 3rd they had all the tools to take on the MEQ meta but the codex was frustrating to use as it had truly awful internal balance so it was a poor experience for both Eldar players and their opponents. 4th ed - the codex was better than the 3rd ed codex and it's the unkillable holo-falcons which live long in the memory. What else can you name from that codex that was broken? 5th was miserable for Eldar players and it's really only been since the 6th ed codex that full blown gorgonzola has made a comeback.

Well i'd largely agree with you there, 6th+ was where they became truly epic. But i'll go for a wander down memory lane, so bear with me if i get lost a little. In 2nd edition i remember a farseer coming right up the table with multiple saves and rerolls. The sod would just not die. Mind you this was 2nd so most armies had something gimicky like that and a good hero could just run through an entire enemy army with a bit of luck. In 3rd it was starcannon spam and iirc disruption tables were a thing too. The starcannon spam was more a problem for me because back then i was playing 'classic' blood angels (and not rhino rush). In 4th/5th i actually got the eldar codex and wanted to make an army, but couldn't make a list i was happy with. Holo-fields made the tanks a pain to put down. But yeah, the internal balance wasn't good. Then 6th happened, and i got out of the game entirely shortly after that.

But yeah, not bitter or anything like that, just observing that they had a good run for a while now. Scatt bikes, d weapons, wraith knights, they were pretty epic at the end there as far as cheese goes.

Enigma of the Absolute wrote:

Well, so far it's one poster who is upset because the WK now costs significantly more than it did previously thus invalidating his army.

Just to clarify, I am not saying that the change "invalidates my army"
I am saying that by the WKs being so darn expensive now, I can't take all of these in the same list (like I could in 6E when I got them) anymore:

So while the WK is balanced now, I was hoping for it to be balanced AND cheap enough to take my 2 converted Saim-Hann style WKs with a decent compliment of other Eldar
But if I want to take both of them (because they were converted together and will always be played together), I'll barely have points to get my Jetbike core

So instead of making my army MORE diverse, it will be less so in 8E...unless 2000pt+ games become standard.
GW could have easily made the WK have less wounds (like around 18) and kept the final points cost around 400. I would have been happy with that

-

Will it really be less diverse ?
For the 7th eldar armies I have faced where all based on only a few auto take units that are now less of an auto take.

 jeff white wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
No offense but good riddance.

This.

ah yes good to see people don\t want balance but revenge.

 oldzoggy wrote:
Will it really be less diverse ?
For the 7th eldar armies I have faced where all based on only a few auto take units that are now less of an auto take.

yeah, I for one like an edition where seeing the big massive walkers isn't a "every game" but a rare event.

Omfg, none of this compares to the 150pt defiler in 5th ed. I had 3 of these guys. Each new edition price hikes it and Nerf it.

I fricken loved the model! I modified its arm claws to look like a crab and i painted it pink and gave it googly eyes and mouth tentacles to look like zoidberg.

 CadianGateTroll wrote:
Omfg, none of this compares to the 150pt defiler in 5th ed. I had 3 of these guys. Each new edition price hikes it and Nerf it.

I fricken loved the model! I modified its arm claws to look like a crab and i painted it pink and gave it googly eyes and mouth tentacles to look like zoidberg.

I got a deflier for my then new chaos army towards the end of 5th, so I feel your pain.

This actually makes me happy. After reading the sisters leaks I've been scratching my head in bewilderment and reeling at some of the coatings - multimeltas in particular tripling in price. I thought geedub was giving us the shaft again.
As I read through threads like these, it makes me hopeful that maybe geedub has actually done what they claim and balanced things across the board. Things are completely new from the points up. It's a shock to the system and will take some learning and let's face it, a lot of UNlearning.

Weve had it pretty easy the last few editions where let's face it, not too much has really changed. I started in 5th and between that and 7th, I didn't have to learn anything much new except for small additions like overwatch and new super you it's rules. This new edition is a radical change to what we've been playing- in about every way. To think we could copy-paste our armies as easily as we have to the past 2-3 editions is obviously way out.

Not being an eldar player, this change to the WK doesn't strike my heart (mind you i have unfond memories of throwing 2.5 turns of throwing my entire 1800 pt army against 1 of these things with fnp. ) I actually quite like the changes to it- I'm not saying this in a vindictive "suck it eldar" way; I genuinely like the rules for it. It is powerful without being OP. Pricey? Yeah but what isn't now?

 Galef wrote:

Enigma of the Absolute wrote:

Well, so far it's one poster who is upset because the WK now costs significantly more than it did previously thus invalidating his army.

Just to clarify, I am not saying that the change "invalidates my army"
I am saying that by the WKs being so darn expensive now, I can't take all of these in the same list (like I could in 6E when I got them) anymore:

Spoiler:

So while the WK is balanced now, I was hoping for it to be balanced AND cheap enough to take my 2 converted Saim-Hann style WKs with a decent compliment of other Eldar
But if I want to take both of them (because they were converted together and will always be played together), I'll barely have points to get my Jetbike core

So instead of making my army MORE diverse, it will be less so in 8E...unless 2000pt+ games become standard.
GW could have easily made the WK have less wounds (like around 18) and kept the final points cost around 400. I would have been happy with that

-

Listbuilding is made of choice. You cannot have it all.
To be honest, I spent the last years reading Eldar lists here that consisted of Wraithspam + Scatterspam + Psionics with the occasional outlier. BO-RIIIING
A titan should be a centerpiece in a list, not a spammable item. I can only approve a game that does not encourage the spam of titans on average point level.
For the spam, there is a 3-5 LOW formation you can use to play against other titan-lovers.

I guess my Saim-Hann WKs will have to be used as 'counts as' Grav-tanks so that I can use them both and still have a big enough army with them.
At least the stats for Wraithlords and Grav tanks are similar enough now (same T & save). It's a shame there's no way to represent the melee ability the model clearly looks like it should have.

-

 Galef wrote:
I guess my Saim-Hann WKs will have to be used as 'counts as' Grav-tanks so that I can use them both and still have a big enough army with them.
At least the stats for Wraithlords and Grav tanks are similar enough now (same T & save). It's a shame there's no way to represent the melee ability the model clearly looks like it should have.

-

This is a good Idea. Also, maybe those are magic-psychic sword that are used to channel energy and improve the shooting, or something.
Or even to parry incoming shots.
I could come up with a better one after a coffee, perhaps.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I guess my Saim-Hann WKs will have to be used as 'counts as' Grav-tanks so that I can use them both and still have a big enough army with them.
At least the stats for Wraithlords and Grav tanks are similar enough now (same T & save). It's a shame there's no way to represent the melee ability the model clearly looks like it should have.

-

This is a good Idea. Also, maybe those are magic-psychic sword that are used to channel energy and improve the shooting, or something.
Or even to parry incoming shots.
I could come up with a better one after a coffee, perhaps.

The only "rules" issue with doing this is that Grav tanks all have a rule that makes you measure from the Hull, not the base. Luckily the oval base is "close" to the size of a Grav tank, but we'll see if it's an issue.

-

woefully undercosted knight now costs close to what it should have.... meh, when it could out damage other super heavies for 300!!!! pts and they cost 600+ pts, you knew there was a problem, now hopefully eldar will also lose the extra wound on exarchs, heavy weapon on every jetbike, 3+ save on jetbikes (should be 4+) etc. we ill finally have a balanced Eldar book... hahah nah, just kidding, that will never happen!

 Formosa wrote:
now hopefully eldar will also lose the extra wound on exarchs, heavy weapon on every jetbike, 3+ save on jetbikes (should be 4+) etc. we ill finally have a balanced Eldar book... hahah nah, just kidding, that will never happen!

Well, the Exarchs do have the extra wound, but since half the weapons now do multiple damage that matters a lot less.
Windriders are indeed 4+ save, which is great, and although they can all still take special weapons, the Scatter laser is Heavy and thus suffer -1 to hit if the bike moved (and you want them to move)
Also Windriders are Fast Attack now. Thank Ynnead, GW was nice enough to make a detachment that Fast Attacks can be core choices.

-

Wraithcannon are garbage now. Without d table you're paying for a massively more expensive body for the privilege of 10 s instead of 8.

Shoulda made them 2d6 damage or gak mortal wounds on 6s, I'd pay big points for the capability if it was actually something my cheaper units couldn't replicate like wraithcannon have had every edition since inception.

Don't care about WK that much but sad what they did to wraithcannon.

m.stan wrote:
Wraithcannon are garbage now. Without d table you're paying for a massively more expensive body for the privilege of 10 s instead of 8.

Shoulda made them 2d6 damage or gak mortal wounds on 6s, I'd pay big points for the capability if it was actually something my cheaper units couldn't replicate like wraithcannon have had every edition since inception.

Don't care about WK that much but sad what they did to wraithcannon.

But the Heavy Wraithcannons is Heavy 2 now. it used to be Heavy 1. So a WK have 4 shots. The was a great change for balance, although I might have made the damage be a bit more reliable than D6, like maybe D3+2. I am actually very glad they did not make Distort weapons deal Mortal Wounds. I've heard enough about D-weapons being cheese, I don't want to hear it about Mortal Wounds

The regular Wraithcannon should only be 1 shot, so they did a good job with that. 5 Wraithgaurd are still really potent.

Look on the bright side, whatever people would use to hurt the wraithknight was nerfed too, or raised in cost heavily as well.

Grav, the best answer to MCs, is now trash.

 Galef wrote:

m.stan wrote:
Wraithcannon are garbage now. Without d table you're paying for a massively more expensive body for the privilege of 10 s instead of 8.

Shoulda made them 2d6 damage or gak mortal wounds on 6s, I'd pay big points for the capability if it was actually something my cheaper units couldn't replicate like wraithcannon have had every edition since inception.

Don't care about WK that much but sad what they did to wraithcannon.

But the Heavy Wraithcannons is Heavy 2 now. it used to be Heavy 1. So a WK have 4 shots. The was a great change for balance, although I might have made the damage be a bit more reliable than D6, like maybe D3+2. I am actually very glad they did not make Distort weapons deal Mortal Wounds. I've heard enough about D-weapons being cheese, I don't want to hear it about Mortal Wounds

The regular Wraithcannon should only be 1 shot, so they did a good job with that. 5 Wraithgaurd are still really potent.

Cannon WG have nothing on Fire Dragons now. Scythe still funny for overwatch shenanigans with implacable against melee armies though. Heavy wraithcannon also does very little 2 pulse lasers or 4 BL won't. With AV and ID gone a few points of strength at the top end just isn't worth much anymore.

 Galef wrote:
Well, given the fact that many, many units are also getting price hikes (not just Eldar, but every army) this could even out and be far more balanced, so I'll try to keep optimistic

The average point level in my area was 1850. Maybe now it will be 2000, so a few points increases here and there might not be so bad.

Also, maybe it being so expensive will get players to shut up when I take the 2 models that I bought AS A PAIR back in 6th ed and lovingly converted as Wraithlords riding Vypers like jetbikes. The fact that taking 2 (and not 3) gives me 0 Command points might also help me take the models I want to take without being TFG.

 jeff white wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
No offense but good riddance.

This.

Offense is taken. I'm sorry that you had bad experiences, but please do not revel in this. Some of us just really liked the model and started playing them when they weren't that bad.
This is like double punishment. The first was the ridicule received for taking 1 WK in 7E (and having to shelf my other), the second is now having the price so high, that taking 2 isn't even a good choice.

-

According to the process by way of which WK are produced they should be extremely rare. Reality is they should see play only in rare instances. Displaying a nicely painted model? Nothing wrong with that however. If you love the model then enjoy... On the shelf.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 oldzoggy wrote:
It seems a steal compared to the stompa

Which should be much more common...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

If Eldar players want the power, they should have to PAY for it.

This is where you and I have always had a misunderstanding. I would rather pay less for less power, but gain more models. I don't care to have super powerful units if it means I only get half of them.
My typical 1850 lists for 7E are over 2250+. That 400pts is a lot of models that will now live out their lives in a dark box, never to see the table....or worse, they'll get eBay'd

-

Why don't you play orks or trade WK for guardians?

tneva82 wrote:

 jeff white wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
No offense but good riddance.

This.

ah yes good to see people don\t want balance but revenge.

Not revenge. Just why is this point and click unit so ubiquitous?
I will be happy to see games without one.
Personally I have never played against one.
Though I do not like them.
Never got one for my own collection.
Never will.

 jeff white wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 jeff white wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
No offense but good riddance.

This.

ah yes good to see people don\t want balance but revenge.

Not revenge. Just why is this point and click unit so ubiquitous?
I will be happy to see games without one.
Personally I have never played against one.
Though I do not like them.
Never got one for my own collection.
Never will.

From the moment the Eldar codex for 7th was released I never played against an Eldar army that didn't field scatterbikes, Warp Spiders or Wraithknights. Wraithknights were a superheavy in all but name, impossible for me to kill, and could liquidate anything on my side in a turn of shooting or in CC. So yeah, you can sit there complaining that your favorite model was nerfed but everyone else is happy that its finally appropriately priced. Now we just need someone to find who wrote the rules for Orks for 8th and cut their fingers off one by one.