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I think double-avenger is probably the best loadout unless you wanna throw down against other Knights. Then you'd want a sword or a glove in place of one of the guns.

We have a Knight army in my ATC team. He's been playing it exclusively for 8th so far.

So far he is 5 for 5. He has tabled everyone he's played. The worst showing he has had is losing 2.5 knights, and that was due to extreme luck on my part.

It is not a fun army to play against. Knights will go first, baring you seizing. They will out shoot you. They will out fight you. They will out last you. Don't expect to make friends with this list.

How good a matchup is one knight loaded up with double avenger or double battle cannon vs the lascannon devastator and havoc teams that people will be running nowadays?

I am thinking about just running one renegade knight with a heavy fire power loadout (missile pod, double battle cannon or double avenger gratling) and have that be all of my heavy support heavy duty fire.

Will that be enough against the typical heavy support we will face these days? Let's say such a knight faces three lascannon devastator squads (12 lascannons). Will it come out ok?

 djones520 wrote:
We have a Knight army in my ATC team. He's been playing it exclusively for 8th so far.

So far he is 5 for 5. He has tabled everyone he's played. The worst showing he has had is losing 2.5 knights, and that was due to extreme luck on my part.

It is not a fun army to play against. Knights will go first, baring you seizing. They will out shoot you. They will out fight you. They will out last you. Don't expect to make friends with this list.

It is very possible to take out this list.

But a Take All Comers list probably won't cut it.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
How good a matchup is one knight loaded up with double avenger or double battle cannon vs the lascannon devastator and havoc teams that people will be running nowadays?

I am thinking about just running one renegade knight with a heavy fire power loadout (missile pod, double battle cannon or double avenger gratling) and have that be all of my heavy support heavy duty fire.

Will that be enough against the typical heavy support we will face these days? Let's say such a knight faces three lascannon devastator squads (12 lascannons). Will it come out ok?

Assuming a flat, featureless plan..

It takes on average 23 BS3+ lascannon shots to kill a knight. Conversely, a double-avenger+stormspear will kill ~8 marines in a turn of shooting. To win, the devs need to a) go first and b) have extra bodies in each squad so that the knight can only delete one squad per turn. Of course, if the knight can charge, it's all over.

Saying that, that's 6-700 points of devastators. For the same price, the marine player could have three las-preds, and while the abovementioned knight could kill a predator a turn, it's a much dicier proposition.

After all this, though, equal points of dedicated anti-tank firepower should be able to kill a knight, otherwise they'd be pretty much unbeatable.

Forgeworld Knights look most effect to me compared to standard knights

0604854 wrote:
Forgeworld Knights look most effect to me compared to standard knights

...how so? The Styrix looks viable. The rest? Not really catching my eye.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
While I am currently neck deep in my Metalica army, I think for future tourney games I might want to rock this list:

Superheavy Detachment

Knight Crusader
Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer, Thermal Cannon, Ironstorm Pod, Heavy Stubber,
[528]

Knight Crusader
Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer, Thermal Cannon, Ironstorm Pod, Heavy Stubber,
[528]

Knight Warden
Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer, Reaper Chainsword, Ironstorm Pod, Heavy stubber
[482]

Knight Errant
Thermal Cannon, Reaper Chainsword, Twin Icarus, Heavy stubber
[460]

[1998]

Not sure if it will succeed in a TAC environment or not, but this is where I have settled as far as a mix of anti-tank, anti-infantry, and overall firepower.

Thoughts?

Also, I am pointing out costs on the FW Knights and... what the eff? How is the Magaera so expensive? Like... more than the Atropos?

Audustum wrote:
I think double-avenger is probably the best loadout unless you wanna throw down against other Knights. Then you'd want a sword or a glove in place of one of the guns.

The biggest challenge here is getting the 6-8 avenger cannons to make it worthwhile. (you may get 1 per kit, depending on the kits you buy) They sell for 30+ bucks a pop on ebay.

I've got my three renegades set up in a mix and match formation, and threw in some nurglings to be a screen. Once I get more games under my belt I'll let you know how it goes.

I guess the thing to do for chaos knights would be to convert the hell out of them. I'm very vaguely thinking of making a nurgle knight to go with some death guard - if I bother turning the guys in the starter set into a real force. Maybe it should have seven-barrelled Gatling cannons and be spraying something toxic out of its heavy flamers. A nurgling should be manning an Icarus autocannon on its back. That kind of thing.

Mandragola wrote:
I guess the thing to do for chaos knights would be to convert the hell out of them. I'm very vaguely thinking of making a nurgle knight to go with some death guard - if I bother turning the guys in the starter set into a real force. Maybe it should have seven-barrelled Gatling cannons and be spraying something toxic out of its heavy flamers. A nurgling should be manning an Icarus autocannon on its back. That kind of thing.

You really do have a lot of fun options for converting. I've got a Tzeentch, Khorne and Nurgle knight.

You can take Chaos units as well. Is chaos better than imperial? They both have good options.

Hammernators are still good against Knights. No more Strength D attacks means they will always get their 3++ save and the Hammers wound knights on a 4+, only allow a 6+ save and do 3 damage per failed save.

A 5-man Hammernator squad will put on average 6 wounds on a Knight per fight phase, as that is without counting any rerolls they may have access to. Add a Chaplain and that becomes 9 wounds on average per Fight phase. A knight won't last long against that kind of damage. Granted the Knight's retaliation will drop 1-2 per turn but once his WS starts dropping, he could be in trouble.

 Karhedron wrote:
Hammernators are still good against Knights. No more Strength D attacks means they will always get their 3++ save and the Hammers wound knights on a 4+, only allow a 6+ save and do 3 damage per failed save.

A 5-man Hammernator squad will put on average 6 wounds on a Knight per fight phase, as that is without counting any rerolls they may have access to. Add a Chaplain and that becomes 9 wounds on average per Fight phase. A knight won't last long against that kind of damage. Granted the Knight's retaliation will drop 1-2 per turn but once his WS starts dropping, he could be in trouble.

Not long? That's 3 turns to bring down 1 regular knight. You'll only get 1 fight phase per set of turns because knights can back out and go fight something more interesting than 3++ terminators.

Debilitate wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:
Hammernators are still good against Knights. No more Strength D attacks means they will always get their 3++ save and the Hammers wound knights on a 4+, only allow a 6+ save and do 3 damage per failed save.

A 5-man Hammernator squad will put on average 6 wounds on a Knight per fight phase, as that is without counting any rerolls they may have access to. Add a Chaplain and that becomes 9 wounds on average per Fight phase. A knight won't last long against that kind of damage. Granted the Knight's retaliation will drop 1-2 per turn but once his WS starts dropping, he could be in trouble.

Not long? That's 3 turns to bring down 1 regular knight. You'll only get 1 fight phase per set of turns because knights can back out and go fight something more interesting than 3++ terminators.

This. I would just walk away and light them up with an Avenger cannon. Force enough 3++ saves and that five man squad is quickly made irrelevant.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
How good a matchup is one knight loaded up with double avenger or double battle cannon vs the lascannon devastator and havoc teams that people will be running nowadays?

How do you pull off double avenger/bc, is it a Forgeworld thing? I don't see that as an option on the Crusader or Warden.

RogueApiary wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
How good a matchup is one knight loaded up with double avenger or double battle cannon vs the lascannon devastator and havoc teams that people will be running nowadays?

How do you pull off double avenger/bc, is it a Forgeworld thing? I don't see that as an option on the Crusader or Warden.

Traitor Knights. They can double up on their weapons whereas loyalists can't.

RogueApiary wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
How good a matchup is one knight loaded up with double avenger or double battle cannon vs the lascannon devastator and havoc teams that people will be running nowadays?

How do you pull off double avenger/bc, is it a Forgeworld thing? I don't see that as an option on the Crusader or Warden.

It's only an option for chaos knights. They come with a chainsword and fist, and can replace either with any gun they want.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

0604854 wrote:
Forgeworld Knights look most effect to me compared to standard knights

...how so? The Styrix looks viable. The rest? Not really catching my eye.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
While I am currently neck deep in my Metalica army, I think for future tourney games I might want to rock this list:

Superheavy Detachment

Knight Crusader
Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer, Thermal Cannon, Ironstorm Pod, Heavy Stubber,
[528]

Knight Crusader
Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer, Thermal Cannon, Ironstorm Pod, Heavy Stubber,
[528]

Knight Warden
Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer, Reaper Chainsword, Ironstorm Pod, Heavy stubber
[482]

Knight Errant
Thermal Cannon, Reaper Chainsword, Twin Icarus, Heavy stubber
[460]

[1998]

Not sure if it will succeed in a TAC environment or not, but this is where I have settled as far as a mix of anti-tank, anti-infantry, and overall firepower.

Thoughts?

Also, I am pointing out costs on the FW Knights and... what the eff? How is the Magaera so expensive? Like... more than the Atropos?

That's because the Magaera is cooler.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

0604854 wrote:
Forgeworld Knights look most effect to me compared to standard knights

...how so? The Styrix looks viable. The rest? Not really catching my eye.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
While I am currently neck deep in my Metalica army, I think for future tourney games I might want to rock this list:

Superheavy Detachment

Knight Crusader
Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer, Thermal Cannon, Ironstorm Pod, Heavy Stubber,
[528]

Knight Crusader
Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer, Thermal Cannon, Ironstorm Pod, Heavy Stubber,
[528]

Knight Warden
Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer, Reaper Chainsword, Ironstorm Pod, Heavy stubber
[482]

Knight Errant
Thermal Cannon, Reaper Chainsword, Twin Icarus, Heavy stubber
[460]

[1998]

Not sure if it will succeed in a TAC environment or not, but this is where I have settled as far as a mix of anti-tank, anti-infantry, and overall firepower.

Thoughts?

Also, I am pointing out costs on the FW Knights and... what the eff? How is the Magaera so expensive? Like... more than the Atropos?

That's because the Magaera is cooler.

Take a look at the Porphyrion if you want to blanch at point costs.

Is there still such a thing as Chaos knights in 8th ed? The chaos heretics index has only renegade knights, no chaos knights. Are the rules for that in forgeworld?

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Is there still such a thing as Chaos knights in 8th ed? The chaos heretics index has only renegade knights, no chaos knights. Are the rules for that in forgeworld?

I don't think so, at least not yet. The indexes were just stop-gaps as I understand it. Something might come out later.

The problem with this thinking is its all inefficient marines vs knights. Try firing 42 mortars at the things with rerole ones you'll knock half its health off and on the return volley lose 2 units of 27pts.

What's a knight going to do vs a conscript blob kill 12 pts of guardsman while they launch 150 attacks on it

The knights originally struck me as 20% overcosted and still do. Cheap hoards is the way to go if your squads cost 50pts or less the knight will never make its points back

You don't want dedicated anti tank as side from dunecrawlers and psyckers it's not worth 400 bolter shots on the other hand

U02dah4 wrote:
Try firing 42 mortars at the things with rerole ones you'll knock half its health off and on the return volley lose 2 units of 27pts.

Here is the mathammer on it.
(7/12 to hit with rerolling 1s) * (1/3 to wound) * (1/3 failed save) * 9.5 shots from one HWT = 0.61 wounds.
It's possible if you have forty HWT full of mortars, you could kill a knight a round, but there are huge logistical problems with that. Firstly, you need to find space in a force org to bring 40 heavy mortar teams. Then you need to find space on the board to place them. 40 squads, even at the low cost of 9 per mortar, will cost 1080 points....

U02dah4 wrote:
What's a knight going to do vs a conscript blob kill 12 pts of guardsman while they launch 150 attacks on it

I am assauming you are talking about stacking 'iron hand' and a 'priest' to give each conscript 3 attacks each. I faced that this weekend, and it's pretty brutal. The answer is simply, you place your assault units into a position where after a round or two of fight phases you can consolidate into combat with straken and the priest, killing them.
There is another problem with that logic. You can't get the entire 50 man blob into assault with a knight. It's just not possible to stick that many into it's base plus 1" next to an assaulting model. You will also never be able to consolidate around it to wrap around because the knight will just walk out.
Once you try this in some games you will see how the pure mathhammer and the actual play vary.

U02dah4 wrote:
The knights originally struck me as 20% overcosted and still do. Cheap hoards is the way to go if your squads cost 50pts or less the knight will never make its points back

Cheap hordes have their own counter. I ran a Nurgle Daemon army this weekend, and conscript blobs were a hassle for me to get rid of (though I did wipe them out in every game). I talked to the guys running them, and in other games their conscripts just evaporated when the right tools were used. Land Raider Crusaders, Taurox Primes, Snipers, etc.

U02dah4 wrote:

The knights originally struck me as 20% overcosted and still do.

Wraithknight called. It wants to know where do you have to sign to be only 20% overcosted

stratigo wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
We have a Knight army in my ATC team. He's been playing it exclusively for 8th so far.

So far he is 5 for 5. He has tabled everyone he's played. The worst showing he has had is losing 2.5 knights, and that was due to extreme luck on my part.

It is not a fun army to play against. Knights will go first, baring you seizing. They will out shoot you. They will out fight you. They will out last you. Don't expect to make friends with this list.

It is very possible to take out this list.

But a Take All Comers list probably won't cut it.

Since the FAQ been looking at my CCB, and realised that necrons are a hard counter to knight exclusive lists. Can easily fit multiple big FW pylons backed by spyders to regen wounds, CCB's with QS (that the reaper swords will bounce off) screened by wraiths to give HQ's invuln saves into a 2k list.

Is there enough output to neuter the pylons as well as the CCB's? The pylons can potentially oneshot a knight in a turn each,

 Klowny wrote:
Is there enough output to neuter the pylons as well as the CCB's? The pylons can potentially oneshot a knight in a turn each,

I can tell you from personal experience that the large pylon absolutely can kill a knight at turn.

It's a bit of a RPS gamble tough. The pylon is not all that hot if you run into a guard blob army with 150 conscripts + plasma dropping scions.

 Klowny wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
We have a Knight army in my ATC team. He's been playing it exclusively for 8th so far.

So far he is 5 for 5. He has tabled everyone he's played. The worst showing he has had is losing 2.5 knights, and that was due to extreme luck on my part.

It is not a fun army to play against. Knights will go first, baring you seizing. They will out shoot you. They will out fight you. They will out last you. Don't expect to make friends with this list.

It is very possible to take out this list.

But a Take All Comers list probably won't cut it.

Since the FAQ been looking at my CCB, and realised that necrons are a hard counter to knight exclusive lists. Can easily fit multiple big FW pylons backed by spyders to regen wounds, CCB's with QS (that the reaper swords will bounce off) screened by wraiths to give HQ's invuln saves into a 2k list.

Is there enough output to neuter the pylons as well as the CCB's? The pylons can potentially oneshot a knight in a turn each,

The pylon is a pretty exclusive unit option. Most people won't have it. As for the CCB's, just kick instead of use the sword. A lot harder to ignore d3 damage, especially with 12 attacks coming in.

 djones520 wrote:
The pylon is a pretty exclusive unit option. Most people won't have it. As for the CCB's, just kick instead of use the sword. A lot harder to ignore d3 damage, especially with 12 attacks coming in.

That depends on your gaming environment. If you are playing at your LFGS, then you don't need to likely worry about it.
If you are playing competitively at tournaments, it's quite possible.

 djones520 wrote:

 Klowny wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
We have a Knight army in my ATC team. He's been playing it exclusively for 8th so far.

So far he is 5 for 5. He has tabled everyone he's played. The worst showing he has had is losing 2.5 knights, and that was due to extreme luck on my part.

It is not a fun army to play against. Knights will go first, baring you seizing. They will out shoot you. They will out fight you. They will out last you. Don't expect to make friends with this list.

It is very possible to take out this list.

But a Take All Comers list probably won't cut it.

Since the FAQ been looking at my CCB, and realised that necrons are a hard counter to knight exclusive lists. Can easily fit multiple big FW pylons backed by spyders to regen wounds, CCB's with QS (that the reaper swords will bounce off) screened by wraiths to give HQ's invuln saves into a 2k list.

Is there enough output to neuter the pylons as well as the CCB's? The pylons can potentially oneshot a knight in a turn each,

The pylon is a pretty exclusive unit option. Most people won't have it. As for the CCB's, just kick instead of use the sword. A lot harder to ignore d3 damage, especially with 12 attacks coming in.

Yep I got ahead of myself and forgot about the feet and the rest, CCB's aren't that good actually.

 Klowny wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

 Klowny wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
We have a Knight army in my ATC team. He's been playing it exclusively for 8th so far.

So far he is 5 for 5. He has tabled everyone he's played. The worst showing he has had is losing 2.5 knights, and that was due to extreme luck on my part.

It is not a fun army to play against. Knights will go first, baring you seizing. They will out shoot you. They will out fight you. They will out last you. Don't expect to make friends with this list.

It is very possible to take out this list.

But a Take All Comers list probably won't cut it.

Since the FAQ been looking at my CCB, and realised that necrons are a hard counter to knight exclusive lists. Can easily fit multiple big FW pylons backed by spyders to regen wounds, CCB's with QS (that the reaper swords will bounce off) screened by wraiths to give HQ's invuln saves into a 2k list.

Is there enough output to neuter the pylons as well as the CCB's? The pylons can potentially oneshot a knight in a turn each,

The pylon is a pretty exclusive unit option. Most people won't have it. As for the CCB's, just kick instead of use the sword. A lot harder to ignore d3 damage, especially with 12 attacks coming in.

Yep I got ahead of myself and forgot about the feet and the rest, CCB's aren't that good actually.

GW officially errata'd them to being characters now, so they are actually decent now.

Query for anyone with the Forge World Imperial Knights book. Can the Imperium ones also pick Household or Mechanics like the Renegades can pick Household or Dark Mechanicum?