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 djones520 wrote:

Formations. The issue with 40K 7th edition was Formations.

Hahahahahahahahaha. Yeah, the big issue was formations. Ok, sure.

All those other issues were fine and created great gaming experiences. Snicker.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

Formations. The issue with 40K 7th edition was Formations.

Hahahahahahahahaha. Yeah, the big issue was formations. Ok, sure.

All those other issues were fine and created great gaming experiences. Snicker.

In all fairness formations were ONE of the major problems with 7th, I have never hidden the fact I cant stand free points in games and 7th made this soooo much worse, add to the the outdated morale system that almost every army ignored, heavy bias to shooting, Eldar, Tau and Space Marines, a nonsensical allies system... i could go on, but so could you lol

This thread title sounds very 'First world Problems' those who invest in 30K models will come around to playing it soon enough, and 30K will have its own 8th port soon.

 Orlanth wrote:
and 30K will have its own 8th port soon.

Only a fan-based one. Forge World is sticking with 7th.

 Melissia wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Well, my claim was anecdotal

As was mine, but you still hypocritically demanded evidence even though you have none, yourself, and I provided some. You may not like what I've provided, but the fact is, unlike you, I have something. And you? You have nothing.

Prove your own damn argument. You can't, but try anyway, I will enjoy watching you fail. Freaking calling other people out demanding evidence to back up their opinions, mutter mutter...

My anecdote was based on years of posts on this forum. Your anecdote is based on a game that has been out for a few weeks. There is no way to prove an anecdote, it's just an observation people can either agree with or disagree with.

This exchange does prove something about you, however. Alpharius would likely ban me were I to point it out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You know, until Thousand Sons and Space Wolves were released, I would have said Horus Heresy is about as close to a good balance as this game is going to get. Even when I was getting toasted by someone, the mistakes were mine and not due to some awful mechanic in the game.

One of the reasons I like the fact HH is staying with 7th edition rules is that it's more complicated. Call me crazy, but there are times 8th edition streamlining leaves me dissatisfied. I played a game with my Kharbdis Assault Claw where it deep struck, dropped a Helbrute, then proceeded to eat a Dreadnought and 2 Razorbacks over the next couple turns. This would have been impossible in 7th edition, but right now the KAC and Laspreds are my 8th edition MVPs.

I will probably keep playing 40k for a while, but I definitely look forward to moving back to HH.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
and 30K will have its own 8th port soon.

Only a fan-based one. Forge World is sticking with 7th.

Weird. Any reason why? Guessing "too much work to change over"?

 Melissia wrote:
Weird. Any reason why? Guessing "too much work to change over"?

Two possibilities: either it's too much work, or FW acknowledges that 8th is a dumpster fire and sees more value in maintaining the existing rules than in moving them over to an edition with inferior core rules. I hope it's the second, 30k works pretty well with the 7th edition core rules and avoids most of the problems of 7th edition 40k. IMO the best possible outcome of moving to 8th was that the quality of the rules stays the same, and there is a lot of potential to ruin 30k. So why do it?

 Peregrine wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Weird. Any reason why? Guessing "too much work to change over"?

Two possibilities: either it's too much work, or FW acknowledges that 8th is a dumpster fire and sees more value in maintaining the existing rules than in moving them over to an edition with inferior core rules. I hope it's the second, 30k works pretty well with the 7th edition core rules and avoids most of the problems of 7th edition 40k. IMO the best possible outcome of moving to 8th was that the quality of the rules stays the same, and there is a lot of potential to ruin 30k. So why do it?

I'm not gonna challenge your second statement, but, we all know is the first possibility. GW and FW had demostrated through the years that they have no problem with ruining their own game systems

 Peregrine wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Weird. Any reason why? Guessing "too much work to change over"?

Two possibilities: either it's too much work, or FW acknowledges that 8th is a dumpster fire and sees more value in maintaining the existing rules than in moving them over to an edition with inferior core rules. I hope it's the second, 30k works pretty well with the 7th edition core rules and avoids most of the problems of 7th edition 40k. IMO the best possible outcome of moving to 8th was that the quality of the rules stays the same, and there is a lot of potential to ruin 30k. So why do it?

Stop it Peregrine. You scare me when I agree with you.

I am not ued to Peregrine making sense either.
However he has a point, and I hadnt seen it that way before, even though I see the pattern as possibly paving the way for a specialist games WHFB in th future.

30K is not an entry level product and doesnt therefore need entry level rules. While I agree in principle with most of th changes in 8th, though not all, there is a market for a separate product in 7th.
Also Forgeworld marks its products well in advance as the books are themselves artistic. An edition change might get in the way of the artistic flow. and force republication, which is too much like hard work for the editorial team, which from all accounts is a lot lazier than the design team.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Weird. Any reason why? Guessing "too much work to change over"?

Two possibilities: either it's too much work, or FW acknowledges that 8th is a dumpster fire and sees more value in maintaining the existing rules than in moving them over to an edition with inferior core rules. I hope it's the second, 30k works pretty well with the 7th edition core rules and avoids most of the problems of 7th edition 40k. IMO the best possible outcome of moving to 8th was that the quality of the rules stays the same, and there is a lot of potential to ruin 30k. So why do it?

Or it could be because the lead writer for Forge World, the guy that wrote all the Horus Heresy rule books, has DIED. And not only that, it was apparently a long, and drawn out illness that prevented any appreciable work to be done on the Horus Heresy books over the last 2-3 years, which is why Inferno took so long to come out, and why it's such a poorly written and edited book (the worst of the HH series for sure).

Forge World has always been a small, sub-studio under the umbrella of GW, and only since HH came out has GW really expressed any interest at all into what FW does. As big of a company as GW is, and after working for such a large company, the bureaucracy must be insane! I bet whole sections/studios/divisions have no clue about what is going on in the bigger company, and considering how secretive GW has been, they have probably been compartmentalizing information. Based on that kind of assumption and that the lead Studio Author/Designer for Horus Heresy was on his death bed, it's entirely plausible that FW had zero idea that 8th edition was coming besides a few hints or rumors. It probably caught them with their pants down.

Given how much bigger the resources are for GW for rules development and play testing, I'm impressed that FW managed to throw together the Imperial Armor books as quickly as they did! Those books are trash though. I wouldn't even bother with them until they come out with the next "updated edition". While Forge World looks for a new Lead Designer/Writer, they are probably just sitting on HH because they don't want to screw it up. 30K is like the Cadillac of Warhammer. If they mess it up, no one is going to pay the premium price for the books or models, and FW will quietly die.

For me, I'm glad they are finishing out the Heresy in 7th edition... or at least the Legions. After that, they can do whatever they want with HH (which means update to 8th...). I just want to see the last three Primarchs rules so we can have a "which Primarch is the best?" Arena Death Match game.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Of course you have to consider they are comparing it to 7th ed 40k. HH is lot different and lot more balanced to 40k 7th ed.

Snuh? HH is 7th edition.

Or do your 30k games somehow not have deathstars, invisibility bombs, quad-launchers, knights, etc?

They are vastly different and lot more balanced. Perfect? No. Nothing is perfect. But much more logical than 8th

Ok, you're welcome to continue having Invisible Magnus keep dishing out 2d6 D hits to everything within 2 feet.

I think people pretending HH is perfectly balanced are a bit naive, but I would say the curve is closer then 8th (Maybe JUST magnus withstanding?)

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Ok, you're welcome to continue having Invisible Magnus keep dishing out 2d6 D hits to everything within 2 feet.

Yes that could be bad. But the chances of you getting all of that is pretty slim. And as a Thousand Sons player I will admit that Magnus is fething busted unless you agree to tone him the feth waaaaaaay down.

If they fix the D Nova and remove Santic demo from HH he would be where he needs to be. Oh and ignore that invisibility stacking with his ability to not get hit

Overall the Inferno armies are at a different level than what came before. It is what it is, and we'll probably be waiting for a long time before any of Inferno's many issues are addressed. I'm not sure if they'll even bother addressing them for 7th edition. Updating the 30K armies for 8th is a big job, but so is maintaining their own 30K core rules, and IMO that's even less of a core competency for them than developing supplemental items. They'd probably punt on both fronts if they could, but they can't.

Look, I'm a fan of FW. I love what they do well, because they do those things very well. I just placed a 250+ GBP order with them. But rules support isn't one of those things, and I think a lot of people are whistling past the graveyard on that and how it relates to the future of 30K, even before we get to what the loss of AB means for them.

Fortunately for me a lot of people in my gaming club still prefer, and play, 30k over 40k 8th ed at the moment. We have just started an escalation campaign that I run, and we are having a lot of fun building and painting our new armies and then playing each other.

I can recommend this for anyone wanting to try and hype the game up again for your gaming friends. Starting low (we started at 750 points) lets people buy some models, get them painted and playing with them quite fast, and then they are hooked!

In regards to the new rulebook, I only really want to see the psychic phase tuned a bit. As a TS player I feel it takes up a lot of time, and could be simplified just a bit. Maybe not to the degree of 8th edition, but somewhere in the same direction. I still love 7th edition in 30k games, but I haven't played that many 40k 8th edition games yet to really have a strong opinion on that.

So what would your group say to someone playing an army not available in 30k?

They come in to the store, purchase some Tau, and get out their fire warriors and say "hey, can I play a game?".

Waht do you do? Say "Nah, you have to play marines to play here"?

We still have more 40k players than 30k players. I'm just saying we have a steady number of people who still play 30k, and I'm glad about it. I also wanted to suggest the escalation thing, it's a great way to get people interested in 30k.

I don't really understand the point of your comment, why would we ever blow someone off like that? If a Tau player comes in we say: "Cool, we are playing Horus Heresy at the moment, but talk to the 20 other guys over there and they'll hook you up".

What's with the attitude?

 Melissia wrote:
So what would your group say to someone playing an army not available in 30k?

They come in to the store, purchase some Tau, and get out their fire warriors and say "hey, can I play a game?".

Waht do you do? Say "Nah, you have to play marines to play here"?

In the case of my group we play 30k in the majority, but there are 40k players too. So they would be catered for. We shouldn't all have to suffer through 8th edition in order for people to get pick-up games. If you want a scene, build it. That's always been the way with 30k. Methinks a few people had it a bit too good when they arrived a little later to the party. 30k took a fair while to get going even with my group and were all 30k crazy. For a long time there was about 2 people painting stuff and one of those wasn't gaming.

 alleus wrote:
We still have more 40k players than 30k players. I'm just saying we have a steady number of people who still play 30k, and I'm glad about it. I also wanted to suggest the escalation thing, it's a great way to get people interested in 30k.

I don't really understand the point of your comment, why would we ever blow someone off like that? If a Tau player comes in we say: "Cool, we are playing Horus Heresy at the moment, but talk to the 20 other guys over there and they'll hook you up".

What's with the attitude?

Agreed.

 alleus wrote:
I don't really understand the point of your comment, why would we ever blow someone off like that

Why not? Your post gave the impression you would do exactly that.

 Melissia wrote:

 alleus wrote:
I don't really understand the point of your comment, why would we ever blow someone off like that

Why not? Your post gave the impression you would do exactly that.

He said a lot of his group. Not all.

Methinks youre seeing what you want to see.

 Melissia wrote:
So what would your group say to someone playing an army not available in 30k?

They come in to the store, purchase some Tau, and get out their fire warriors and say "hey, can I play a game?".

Waht do you do? Say "Nah, you have to play marines to play here"?

If someone really wanted to play Tau versus a 30k army, that person would need a 7th edition Codex.

From what I hear from Tau players, they prefer it over the 8th edition Index.

 Fenriz wrote:
Methinks youre seeing what you want to see.

On the contrary; I wouldn't want to see that happen, as it would basically mean the group is a bunch of jerks, which would be certainly be a bad way to maintain the hobby in your area. Rather, I think your statement more applies to yourself, if you're really unwilling to see how it might come across that way.

It seems to me you are just trolling, Melissia, and looking for a fight. Our group is welcoming to anyone, I don't know how you got any other impression.

All I said in my post was that we have quite a few people who prefer Horus Heresy over 40k. What's wrong with that? They are two different game systems now. Do you also get mad when you bring a 40k Tau army to a group of people playing Age of Sigmar and are not allowed to play with them?

 alleus wrote:
Our group is welcoming to anyone

I'm glad to hear it.

[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]

RULE #1 - BE POLITE.

If you see a post that you feel is against the rules of the site, just report it and move on.

 Melissia wrote:
> Accuses me of trolling
> Goes on to troll

If you think I'm trolling, I could not care any less. If that bothers you, report my post.

*sigh*

Let's de-escalate this situation.

Inclusion is making people feel welcome and invited into a community. Choice of game system is probably the smallest factor in someone's decision whether or not to join a group. There are 40k groups, there are 30k groups, but most people decide which ones to be part of based on the people. The ruleset matters, but it's like ice cream. You might have your heart set on chocolate or vanilla, but on a hot day you would probably be content with either so long as it's cold.

Melissa has expressed some enthusiasm for 8th edition rules in Horus Heresy, which is great. Horus Heresy uses a different ruleset and (given what happened to poor Mr. Bligh) will continue doing so for some time, with few changes, at least until they release the remaining Legion armies. I have not met anyone clamoring for 8th edition rules in HH outside this thread, but I do see people creating new armies all the time. The ones who do seem to be enjoying themselves.

Given the fact the rules are what they are, it's probably not some offense against social justice to start a 30k group. I have helped build communities of gamers that included over 100 people and been in situations (i.e. the release of 7th edition) where bad rules caused the group to diminish. This is not one of those situations.

Melissa has every right to feel the way she does, no one needs to tell her she is wrong for her opinions even if she chooses to express them strongly. It's not personal, it's her own valid, unique perspective. It would be wrong to elevate the observations she has shared to the level of offense. At the end of the day, does it really matter that she would not want to join your group? Given all that she's said, would you actually want to be in a group she's in?

Gaming is social, and social means you meet a lot of people. That doesn't mean you have to like all of them.

 techsoldaten wrote:

Melissa has expressed some enthusiasm for 8th edition rules in Horus Heresy, which is great. Horus Heresy uses a different ruleset and (given what happened to poor Mr. Bligh) will continue doing so for some time, with few changes, at least until they release the remaining Legion armies. I have not met anyone clamoring for 8th edition rules in HH outside this thread, but I do see people creating new armies all the time. The ones who do seem to be enjoying themselves.

Pretty much everyone in the store I play at has been wanting 8e rules for the Heresy, they'll still play HH as is, but they want it updated.