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 casvalremdeikun wrote:
 davou wrote:
conscripts arent that broken, but people certainly need to account for characters in list building now.

You need anti infantry, anti tank, anti MC, and anti character.

If you cant handle one part of those list, you will suffer when you face an army that takes advantage of it.
How are armies with no ability to pick out Characters supposed to deal with this then?
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 casvalremdeikun wrote:
 davou wrote:
conscripts arent that broken, but people certainly need to account for characters in list building now.

You need anti infantry, anti tank, anti MC, and anti character.

If you cant handle one part of those list, you will suffer when you face an army that takes advantage of it.
How are armies with no ability to pick out Characters supposed to deal with this then?


Thinking about it orks, chaos, nids have no snipers

the 3 of them all have hordes though.. coincidence? I THINK MAYBE!

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/23 23:42:18


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
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 casvalremdeikun wrote:
 davou wrote:
conscripts arent that broken, but people certainly need to account for characters in list building now.

You need anti infantry, anti tank, anti MC, and anti character.

If you cant handle one part of those list, you will suffer when you face an army that takes advantage of it.
How are armies with no ability to pick out Characters supposed to deal with this then?

It hardly matters even for the Armies that CAN bring Snipers

All the Snipers except for Ratlings are pretty over costed/under gunned.



6+ = 6/36 | Reroll 1s = 7/36 | Reroll Misses = 11/36 ||||||| 5+ = 12/36 | Reroll 1s 14/36 | Reroll Misses = 20/36 ||||||| 4+ = 18/36 | Reroll 1s 21/36 | Reroll Misses = 27/36
3+ = 24/36 | Reroll 1s 28/36 | Reroll Misses = 32/36 ||||||| 2+ = 30/36 | Reroll 1s 35/36 ||||||| Highest of 2d6 = 4.47
 
   
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GAdvance wrote:
Why not just reduce the number of wounds commisars have to 2 and stop them being able to affect multiple units.

Suddenly snipers have the effect they're meant to and the cost effectiveness change, we all know that if the commisar is dead the unit will take horrific battleshock casualties.


would love to see what i think are the old frag rules come back. Lets say any squad using the commissar for leadership of rolls a 6, the commisar is slain and the 6 stands as the leadership roll.

Definitely agree that orders shouldnot work on conscripts. They're far too green to tale generalised orders.
   
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 Talamare wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
 davou wrote:
conscripts arent that broken, but people certainly need to account for characters in list building now.

You need anti infantry, anti tank, anti MC, and anti character.

If you cant handle one part of those list, you will suffer when you face an army that takes advantage of it.
How are armies with no ability to pick out Characters supposed to deal with this then?

It hardly matters even for the Armies that CAN bring Snipers

All the Snipers except for Ratlings are pretty over costed/under gunned.

Pretty much. And that doesn't even account for the fact certain armies have no Snipers at all (Grey Knights and Deathwatch unless they take allies, but running two armies is not a solution to that problem). Orks have a stupidly high amount of attacks they can pump out, so they can wipe out Conscriptissar fairly easily, same with Tyranids. But low model count armies are never going to be able to move that blob off an objective. Nevermind the fact that the way objectives work, Grey Knights are never going to score an objective in the first place.

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The hyperbole of this thread is off the chart!
   
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 Talamare wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
 davou wrote:
conscripts arent that broken, but people certainly need to account for characters in list building now.

You need anti infantry, anti tank, anti MC, and anti character.

If you cant handle one part of those list, you will suffer when you face an army that takes advantage of it.
How are armies with no ability to pick out Characters supposed to deal with this then?

It hardly matters even for the Armies that CAN bring Snipers

All the Snipers except for Ratlings are pretty over costed/under gunned.



All Imperial Armies can bring Vindicares, which are fantastic and easily negate the morale bonus of Imperial Guard.

Non-Imperial armies I feel for, but something like half the roster can take the best sniper in the game and they can do it in high quantity if they want.

Conscripts could be a problem, looking at Mathammer, but I'd definitely say GW should wait for some major tournaments to get list winners published before we go nuts. People screamed about Space Marines in 7th but most big tournaments were getting won by Eldar, Renegades & Heretics and Chaos. And I say this as a primarily Grey Knight player.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
 Talamare wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
 davou wrote:
conscripts arent that broken, but people certainly need to account for characters in list building now.

You need anti infantry, anti tank, anti MC, and anti character.

If you cant handle one part of those list, you will suffer when you face an army that takes advantage of it.
How are armies with no ability to pick out Characters supposed to deal with this then?

It hardly matters even for the Armies that CAN bring Snipers

All the Snipers except for Ratlings are pretty over costed/under gunned.

Pretty much. And that doesn't even account for the fact certain armies have no Snipers at all (Grey Knights and Deathwatch unless they take allies, but running two armies is not a solution to that problem). Orks have a stupidly high amount of attacks they can pump out, so they can wipe out Conscriptissar fairly easily, same with Tyranids. But low model count armies are never going to be able to move that blob off an objective. Nevermind the fact that the way objectives work, Grey Knights are never going to score an objective in the first place.


You don't have to run two armies beyond the technical sense. You can literally just take an elite slot in a detachment and stuff a Vindicare in it. HQ: Draigo and Voldus, Troops: 3x Terminators, Elite: Vindicator. Done. There's a Battalion.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/24 03:15:33


 
   
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Punisher23 wrote:
GAdvance wrote:
Why not just reduce the number of wounds commisars have to 2 and stop them being able to affect multiple units.

Suddenly snipers have the effect they're meant to and the cost effectiveness change, we all know that if the commisar is dead the unit will take horrific battleshock casualties.


would love to see what i think are the old frag rules come back. Lets say any squad using the commissar for leadership of rolls a 6, the commisar is slain and the 6 stands as the leadership roll.

Definitely agree that orders shouldnot work on conscripts. They're far too green to tale generalised orders.


Why the Hell would the Commissar die? So you can feel happy about yourself?

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I don't think they need to be nuked from orbit as some people are suggesting. They're strong, sure, maybe borderline OP, but they're not entirely gamebreaking as far as I can tell. Not enough to justify huge, sweeping nerfs, it's just more a "if you're facing Guard you better be prepared for these guys because that's one of their strong points".

And you know, every faction should probably have some units like that. Units that are like "Oh you're facing that faction? Better be ready to deal with X, because it plays right to their strengths."
   
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NM.

But if Conscripts fail a Leadership test, the Commissary should die.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/24 03:41:07


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No, that's not a good idea at all.

All that really needs to be done is to make the Commissar's rule reduce the number of casualties by a number, rather than make it a flat maximum of 1.

If it was something like 'Reduce the number of casualties suffered by a failed Morale test by 5 (to a minimum of 1)' or some other value other than 5 it'd be fine. That way murderising 1/2 a 50 man conscript blob wouldn't result in a single guy dying, but would result in some a decent chunk of the unit fleeing.

(For those wondering I say 5 because with no leadership modifiers in all but one edge case 5 will mean your typical 10 man Guard squad will only lose a maximum of 1 model if the Sergeant is alive. The edge case is rolling a 6 when 8 models died that turn, in which case with the sergeant and another shmuck alive will terminate the squad)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/24 03:53:25


 
   
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 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
No, that's not a good idea at all.

All that really needs to be done is to make the Commissar's rule reduce the number of casualties by a number, rather than make it a flat maximum of 1.

If it was something like 'Reduce the number of casualties suffered by a failed Morale test by 5 (to a minimum of 1)' or some other value other than 5 it'd be fine. That way murderising 1/2 a 50 man conscript blob wouldn't result in a single guy dying, but would result in some a decent chunk of the unit fleeing.

Either that or making commissars only be able to blam one unit a turn seems like the simplest rule change. Allow lord commissars to effect multiple units. So either you can only save one unit of conscripts or have shell out more points

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/24 03:58:21


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 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
No, that's not a good idea at all.

All that really needs to be done is to make the Commissar's rule reduce the number of casualties by a number, rather than make it a flat maximum of 1.

If it was something like 'Reduce the number of casualties suffered by a failed Morale test by 5 (to a minimum of 1)' or some other value other than 5 it'd be fine. That way murderising 1/2 a 50 man conscript blob wouldn't result in a single guy dying, but would result in some a decent chunk of the unit fleeing.

(For those wondering I say 5 because with no leadership modifiers in all but one edge case 5 will mean your typical 10 man Guard squad will only lose a maximum of 1 model if the Sergeant is alive. The edge case is rolling a 6 when 8 models died that turn, in which case with the sergeant and another shmuck alive will terminate the squad)


This probably the only idea i could support at all in this thread. Probably the only one that will ever be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
NM.

But if Conscripts fail a Leadership test, the Commissary should die.


So basically worthless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Luke_Prowler wrote:
 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
No, that's not a good idea at all.

All that really needs to be done is to make the Commissar's rule reduce the number of casualties by a number, rather than make it a flat maximum of 1.

If it was something like 'Reduce the number of casualties suffered by a failed Morale test by 5 (to a minimum of 1)' or some other value other than 5 it'd be fine. That way murderising 1/2 a 50 man conscript blob wouldn't result in a single guy dying, but would result in some a decent chunk of the unit fleeing.

Either that or making commissars only be able to blam one unit a turn seems like the simplest rule change. Allow lord commissars to effect multiple units. So either you can only save one unit of conscripts or have shell out more points


Sounds redundant with the possibility of multiple commissars.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/24 04:08:36


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Auto-killing the Commissar and stripping orders completely are both far too extreme. At most, I would just make conscripts go back to 5e order rules: they have to pass a LD check for the order to succeed. Nothing bad happens if they fail, other than the order being a dud. The commissar would help them pass orders, but even LD8 only gives them slightly more than a 50% chance. Commissars and Lord Commissars going from LD9/10 to LD8/9 as they have in 8th edition is enough of a nerf in that situation, I think that would make the conscripts just unreliable enough to rein them in.

Though they could probably get away with being left as-is too. While they are a bit above the power curve, enough to probably end up being a signature unit, they're not going to cause the kind of weeping and gnashing of teeth that Wrathknights, Riptide Wings, or scatter bikes did. Especially since their offensive power quickly evaporates as they lose models.
   
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 NenkotaMoon wrote:
Punisher23 wrote:
GAdvance wrote:
Why not just reduce the number of wounds commisars have to 2 and stop them being able to affect multiple units.

Suddenly snipers have the effect they're meant to and the cost effectiveness change, we all know that if the commisar is dead the unit will take horrific battleshock casualties.


would love to see what i think are the old frag rules come back. Lets say any squad using the commissar for leadership of rolls a 6, the commisar is slain and the 6 stands as the leadership roll.

Definitely agree that orders shouldnot work on conscripts. They're far too green to tale generalised orders.


Why the Hell would the Commissar die? So you can feel happy about yourself?


No, so the effect of the commisars aura s not a given thing and there is a potential risk. Say a squad of conscripts takes 20 casualties from the horriffic, ravaging hordes. Do you not think that a group of new recruits/forcibly recruited troops might think feth this and en mass overpower the commissar whos shooting them and leg it? Would only happen on a roll of a 6, so its a small chance that can use a command reroll.
   
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Wales

It's almost as if people forget that in 40k, human life is the cheapest component in the galaxy.

People loosing their mind over a horde IG army? What? I'd be happy to play against it. It's fluffy and also morbid - essentially conscripted men in 40k are glorified meat shields, or cannon fodder for a meat grinder.

It's almost as if people still want to play 7th style elite, low count armies than moving on to the age of 8th proper big armies... Conscripts aren't the problem - people unable or unwilling to adapt to beat them is.

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 Freddy Kruger wrote:
It's almost as if people forget that in 40k, human life is the cheapest component in the galaxy.

People loosing their mind over a horde IG army? What? I'd be happy to play against it. It's fluffy and also morbid - essentially conscripted men in 40k are glorified meat shields, or cannon fodder for a meat grinder.

It's almost as if people still want to play 7th style elite, low count armies than moving on to the age of 8th proper big armies... Conscripts aren't the problem - people unable or unwilling to adapt to beat them is.
You realize some armies have no choice but to be low model count, right? Or is these some magic way to cut the price of Grey Knight units in half? Or should GK players shelve their armies for an entire edition?

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Wales

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
 Freddy Kruger wrote:
It's almost as if people forget that in 40k, human life is the cheapest component in the galaxy.

People loosing their mind over a horde IG army? What? I'd be happy to play against it. It's fluffy and also morbid - essentially conscripted men in 40k are glorified meat shields, or cannon fodder for a meat grinder.

It's almost as if people still want to play 7th style elite, low count armies than moving on to the age of 8th proper big armies... Conscripts aren't the problem - people unable or unwilling to adapt to beat them is.
You realize some armies have no choice but to be low model count, right? Or is these some magic way to cut the price of Grey Knight units in half? Or should GK players shelve their armies for an entire edition?


If you want to play low count armies, that's fine. Just be aware that elite armies like that aren't meant to be able to take on hordes. That's what allies are for. The "magical points reduction" you sarcastically put won't happen, so you either:

A. Ally with another army that you can go head to head with hordes

B. Try to develop new tactics to beat the hordes with only your faction

C. Suck it up, and continue to play the way you want.

But, you went with D. Whine that my small elite force can't compete with a numberless horde army, so call for the horde army choice unit to be nerfed so I can continue as I please without needing to change.

You have options. Everyone has. People need to be pro active in developing counters than calling for nerfs.

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There is no counterplay when the only answer is, "see that IG army? Make sure half of your army is IG to deal with them".

I'm playing Grey Knights, end of story.

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 Quickjager wrote:
There is no counterplay when the only answer is, "see that IG army? Make sure half of your army is IG to deal with them".

I'm playing Grey Knights, end of story.
Pretty much my thought exactly. Why should I have to play 75% Not-Grey Knights to have any hope of winning with my Grey Knights?

PS, I don't play Grey Knights.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/24 10:39:06


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I already said earlier in thread that conscripts need mild tweaks, but deciding they are not allowed orders and also kill a commissar on a failed check? This is getting kind of stupid. Just go with the above "reduce by 5" method if you want morale to still kick them in the teeth. If you want reduced firepower just cap them at 30 and force them to roll to take orders like previous editions. Nerfing them so hard that they become something you never see on the field ever is NOT the solution.

Sidenote: I seem to remember a time when the Grey Knights were specifically in a codex that included Stormtroopers/Scions and Inquisitors, as well as special permissions to take a small section of Guard units. I remember almost starting an army (before school, work, etc got in the way) back then specifically because of that mix of interesting features. Play pure power armor if you want, but really they are one of the armies that makes complete sense adding an Inquisitor and Scions to, its less adding in another codex and more patching the units back in.
   
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kurhanik wrote:
...they are one of the armies that makes complete sense adding an Inquisitor and Scions to...


Yea that is why I have 30 scions and Tauroxes w/ gatling guns, 4 Inquisitors, and a Knight. But let us go back to my previous point... I don't want a half IG ARMY!

If I put Scions in my army guess what that does!

From a practical perspective it also means I have to spend MORE points on IG because I can't put this entire formation in Deep Strike reserves; you know where Scions want to be either Grav-Chuting in w/ meltas or vanilla deepstriking with Plasma. Tauroxes are great, but they don't provide the alpha strike such an combined army needs to survive off of momentum-wise.

EDIT: This is HORDES edition, where number the number of single wound models you can field matters the most. The core rules support it far more than anything else. If the answer to a problem is ALLY IN THE PROBLEM then there is a bigger problem.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/06/24 11:35:26


 SHUPPET wrote:

wtf is this buddhist monk ascendant martial dice arts crap lol
 
   
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 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
No, that's not a good idea at all.

All that really needs to be done is to make the Commissar's rule reduce the number of casualties by a number, rather than make it a flat maximum of 1.

If it was something like 'Reduce the number of casualties suffered by a failed Morale test by 5 (to a minimum of 1)' or some other value other than 5 it'd be fine. That way murderising 1/2 a 50 man conscript blob wouldn't result in a single guy dying, but would result in some a decent chunk of the unit fleeing.

(For those wondering I say 5 because with no leadership modifiers in all but one edge case 5 will mean your typical 10 man Guard squad will only lose a maximum of 1 model if the Sergeant is alive. The edge case is rolling a 6 when 8 models died that turn, in which case with the sergeant and another shmuck alive will terminate the squad)

This is an excellent solution. The real problem is the commissar's ability scaling absurdly well with the conscripts, and this would fix that without making the commissars worthless.

   
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 Quickjager wrote:

EDIT: This is HORDES edition, where number the number of single wound models you can field matters the most. The core rules support it far more than anything else. If the answer to a problem is ALLY IN THE PROBLEM then there is a bigger problem.
Something Something Previous Edition we sucked so too bad something something you're just a whiner.

Agreed. So much agreed. I shouldn't have to play a horde army to deal with a horde army. Horde armies should have ways for Elite armies to deal with them, because horde armies will never have a problem with elite armies due to probability and how everything can wound everything.

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Get a load of these people saying "use anti-horde tactics" and "build your army to deal with hordes." Have you ever actually tried building an IG army using the new list? Those hordes account for like 20% of your points. So great, I built the perfect anti-infantry-horde army and now I'm completely unequipped to deal with the other 80% which consists of tanks and artillery hiding behind walls. Then there are the scions who deep-strike anti-armor weapons flawlessly without needing pods at a very cheap price. Where other armies have to specialize, the IG get to have their cake, eat it too, and then have some more cake.
   
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Real News wrote:
Get a load of these people saying "use anti-horde tactics" and "build your army to deal with hordes." Have you ever actually tried building an IG army using the new list? Those hordes account for like 20% of your points. So great, I built the perfect anti-infantry-horde army and now I'm completely unequipped to deal with the other 80% which consists of tanks and artillery hiding behind walls. Then there are the scions who deep-strike anti-armor weapons flawlessly without needing pods at a very cheap price. Where other armies have to specialize, the IG get to have their cake, eat it too, and then have some more cake.
Is it chocolate?

I'm struggling to build a viable TAC list for CWE that can account for the fact that over the next year I'm likely to be facing both 'Script spam and mechanised marines with few opportunities to adapt my list...

Any ideas that won't get shot off the table T1 due to the presence of 10-16 lascannons?
   
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 Talamare wrote:
 Ir0njack wrote:
As a guard player i can honestly say that on paper consripts look scary and in certain circumstances guars can be hella effective from the couple of 8th games I've played but i think conscripts have a sort of ciriticaln mass and i'd place ut at arounf 100. If your're taking more than 100 conscripts your going to be wasting time and I'd even say points.

They cant do everything, they NEED support and orders which mrans your tying charater and thus more points into them characters, especially charaters like a commisar are easily sniped out because if your daisy chaining conscripts out to syay in bubble range you're not getting all that firepower you could from orders (honestly its overrated). If your sending out multiples of commissars or commanders to negate the effects


The only army with good Snipers is IG. So it's not "easily Sniped".


Are you serious?

So Eldar Rangers, Necron Deathmarks, Tau Sniper Drones, Space Marine Scouts, and I'm sure I'm forgetting some other stuff don't exist?

Also, Platoon Commander and Commissar is just 50 points total.

That's literally 200 points for a 50 (52?) man squad

That's also an Elite slot, an HQ slot, and a Troops slot.

Still not sure what the big deal is about Conscripts. Oooh, ahhhh. They're cheap.

Welcome to forever?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
No, that's not a good idea at all.

All that really needs to be done is to make the Commissar's rule reduce the number of casualties by a number, rather than make it a flat maximum of 1.

If it was something like 'Reduce the number of casualties suffered by a failed Morale test by 5 (to a minimum of 1)' or some other value other than 5 it'd be fine. That way murderising 1/2 a 50 man conscript blob wouldn't result in a single guy dying, but would result in some a decent chunk of the unit fleeing.

(For those wondering I say 5 because with no leadership modifiers in all but one edge case 5 will mean your typical 10 man Guard squad will only lose a maximum of 1 model if the Sergeant is alive. The edge case is rolling a 6 when 8 models died that turn, in which case with the sergeant and another shmuck alive will terminate the squad)

Counter point:

Make it so that when you perform the Battle Shock test(because you are still supposed to perform one from what I'm reading, you just only ever lose one model to it from the Commissars) any rolls of 6 result in the Commissar taking a Mortal Wound in addition to the one model being lost.

The coward shot first or his buddies tried to frag the Commissar as well, that kind of thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
 Quickjager wrote:

EDIT: This is HORDES edition, where number the number of single wound models you can field matters the most. The core rules support it far more than anything else. If the answer to a problem is ALLY IN THE PROBLEM then there is a bigger problem.
Something Something Previous Edition we sucked so too bad something something you're just a whiner.

Agreed. So much agreed. I shouldn't have to play a horde army to deal with a horde army. Horde armies should have ways for Elite armies to deal with them, because horde armies will never have a problem with elite armies due to probability and how everything can wound everything.

It's called getting into assault.

Remember that the Commissars are only protected against shooting. So assault the bastard, rip his head off and watch the Conscripts scatter.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/06/24 13:21:56


 
   
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How am I getting into assault with a guy surrounded by a blob of cheap wounds? Or is there some weird rule that allows me to flat-out ignore units so I can just charge the guy in the center.

And yes, IG are the only ones with good Snipers. Ratling Snipers cost half as much as a squad of SM Scouts and are just as effective. Rangers are even worse in terms of price.

Your idea for the Commissar is interesting. I could see that if the number of casualties is greater than the Commissar's Leadership, that something bad happens to him. It's gonna be hard to keep all those boys in line if bodies pile up. Perhaps even the Summary Execution ability going away after the unit takes casualties greater than his leadership.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/24 13:42:15


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I hope conscript armies become the new meta because my baneblade (or in today's case Stormhammer) companies will have a field day.

Already fought Orcs and Nids and lol hordes.
   
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Yea, I already mentioned this in another thread but ironically Baneblade WANTS to be assaulted by hordes. The whole world is topsy turvy...

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