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Hopefully not adjusted to much. To much of an adjustment makes a unit not even worth taking. Maybe like... a point each model extra? I mean it was ok when space marines could spam free vehicles and it never got adjusted. Why adjust another army when it finally gets something that good?

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
further playing the mission matters

ITC uses only Eternal War missions, so they don't matter.

The only mission is kill more than you lose.

Every victory comes from tabling the loser or killing them down to not enough units to contest. The biggest place 8th has dropped the ball is not updating the standard missions.

I think that is largely terrain dependent. I agree the base missions are still what they always have been, and I expect them to change at events going forward (NOVA is already not using them). Even then I still think playing to the mission will matter so long as you have good terrain.


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Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Hopefully not adjusted to much. To much of an adjustment makes a unit not even worth taking. Maybe like... a point each model extra? I mean it was ok when space marines could spam free vehicles and it never got adjusted. Why adjust another army when it finally gets something that good?

Because we are trying to avoid the exact issue you mention? If something is too good it should be adjusted. 1 PPM seems a reasonable adjustment, it is also possible that the plasma gun needs a bump as well if it is an obvious choice.

 Gamgee wrote:
I'm trying to get more info out of him, but it sounds like he went heavy crisis and large suits which would be a disaster in the current meta.

You don't know what the "current meta" is considering the game has only been out for about 2 weeks. You don't know and neither does anybody else. It's fun to see the results, and as more and more results come through I think we are going to see a much more mixed bag, with different factions dominating different tournaments.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Hopefully not adjusted to much. To much of an adjustment makes a unit not even worth taking. Maybe like... a point each model extra? I mean it was ok when space marines could spam free vehicles and it never got adjusted. Why adjust another army when it finally gets something that good?

My broken cheese is ok because in 7th ed someone else had broken cheese? I don't think that argument is going to win hearts and minds on this topic. I'd be guessing if I said how much of an increase, but 1 point per model seems insufficient. It needs to discourage spam, and unfortunately that probably means a drastic increase to the point where they become a speciality unit.

DaPino wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
Chaos marines still suck, water is wet, and fire is hot.

So much for people in my team saying how things have changed for chaos and especially 1k sons.

Probably has much to do with Chaos being marines without any of the toys that the actual marines have been getting for the better part of 4 editions. IIRC, back in 4th ed, chaos were the OP marine army because they had access to deamons and daemon princes, and vanilla marines were simply outclassed.

GW really needs to address the last 10 years of grossly uneven army creep that's been going on.

 Grimgold wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Hopefully not adjusted to much. To much of an adjustment makes a unit not even worth taking. Maybe like... a point each model extra? I mean it was ok when space marines could spam free vehicles and it never got adjusted. Why adjust another army when it finally gets something that good?

My broken cheese is ok because in 7th ed someone else had broken cheese? I don't think that argument is going to win hearts and minds on this topic. I'd be guessing if I said how much of an increase, but 1 point per model seems insufficient. It needs to discourage spam, and unfortunately that probably means a drastic increase to the point where they become a speciality unit.

Weird, someone above you said 1ppm seemed good. Funny how there are differing opinions.. there always will be. No more than 2 ppm, is what I would say. It doesn't need to be repainted so high that I "think" about taking it but am not sure. Gw doesn't want that either as they want to sell kits. They want me to want to take it.

Arachnofiend wrote:
CSM is probably weighed down by Chaos Soup; IMO the best CSM armies are going to have some daemons in them, so we don't know how many of those "Chaos" armies in the high tier are true mixes or, for example, Thousand Sons with horrors for troops. Space Marines are kinda the same deal with Imperium being a high tier faction but Astartes being mid tier on its own.

When combined with command points, the randomness of daemon summoning is going to prove to be extremely powerful. Borderline OP, IMO.

Since the rules for Daemon Summoning doesn't say that you need to put specific units into reserve before summoning them, just that in comp play you need to have enough reserve points to summon them, it means that chaos have far and away the best ability to side-board and customize their army to their opponents' lists in the game.

Once people figure out how to abuse that, they should start performing a LOT better.

The only disadvantage is that you won't be able to count on your bloodthirsters or lords of change showing up ever since you'll only get the 17+ you need to summon them on 1 in 54 rituals without command points. And then with a command point it's roughly a 1 in 3 chance after you get the double-6 you otherwise should be waiting for (1 in 12 to get double 6, including natural 17's and 18's)

 Arandmoor wrote:
The only disadvantage is that you won't be able to count on your bloodthirsters or lords of change showing up ever since you'll only get the 17+ you need to summon them on 1 in 54 rituals without command points. And then with a command point it's roughly a 1 in 3 chance after you get the double-6 you otherwise should be waiting for (1 in 12 to get double 6, including natural 17's and 18's)

You also cannot move the turn you summon. You also can only summon from the same faction (unless you don't have a faction keyword). It also had a good chance to injure the summoner.

It's not a problem if a character is already engaged in a fight, but it's a big hinderance in other cases.

In the least shocking news ever necrons and tau are still in the top.

Though it's good to see nids up there.

 Hollow wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
I'm trying to get more info out of him, but it sounds like he went heavy crisis and large suits which would be a disaster in the current meta.

You don't know what the "current meta" is considering the game has only been out for about 2 weeks. You don't know and neither does anybody else. It's fun to see the results, and as more and more results come through I think we are going to see a much more mixed bag, with different factions dominating different tournaments.

Confirmed he is running huge suit spam lists. I suggested he try gun drone spam and either firewarriors to screen them or breachers to protect his big stuff. Also told him ablative wounds for suits are great and commanders. Let's see how he does next time.

Edit
I wouldn't count on Tau being "in the top" yet. There is a lot of time for things to shift as armies get completed for 8th edition cheese and as the meta develops. Our meta here is super competitive and the Necron player spams tons of destroyers and a lot of wraiths which as a Tau I can't even hope to wound. I've heard his only two game shave been against two tau lists and that other Tau player got crushed. I have no idea what kind of list the Tau player ran against the necrons though. Probably suit heavy since that was the big 7th ed thing.

I think it could go either way with Tau as people learn to play the game. They are so 50/50 right now because of all the armies they have had the biggest changes. Every other day I keep going back and forth if they are viable or not.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Arandmoor wrote:
The only disadvantage is that you won't be able to count on your bloodthirsters or lords of change showing up ever since you'll only get the 17+ you need to summon them on 1 in 54 rituals without command points. And then with a command point it's roughly a 1 in 3 chance after you get the double-6 you otherwise should be waiting for (1 in 12 to get double 6, including natural 17's and 18's)

You also cannot move the turn you summon. You also can only summon from the same faction (unless you don't have a faction keyword). It also had a good chance to injure the summoner.

It's not a problem if a character is already engaged in a fight, but it's a big hinderance in other cases.

It's not as big of a problem as you'd think, depending on what you summon. I've already had some success just using summoning to plop Exalted Flamers into firing range without risking them getting shot first. I'm sure a smarter/more experienced player can come up with much better tricks than that.

 Grimgold wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Hopefully not adjusted to much. To much of an adjustment makes a unit not even worth taking. Maybe like... a point each model extra? I mean it was ok when space marines could spam free vehicles and it never got adjusted. Why adjust another army when it finally gets something that good?

My broken cheese is ok because in 7th ed someone else had broken cheese? I don't think that argument is going to win hearts and minds on this topic. I'd be guessing if I said how much of an increase, but 1 point per model seems insufficient. It needs to discourage spam, and unfortunately that probably means a drastic increase to the point where they become a speciality unit.

1ppm would not make scion command squads auto take over scion squads although still cheaper then a scion squad and still able to spam more special weapons.
1ppm on plasmagun is needed as well becuase well plasma spam is a real thing....it would make maybe make melta and volleyguns comparable.
Regardless even with the above two changes scions are still super efficient for the point cost.


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Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Hopefully not adjusted to much. To much of an adjustment makes a unit not even worth taking. Maybe like... a point each model extra? I mean it was ok when space marines could spam free vehicles and it never got adjusted. Why adjust another army when it finally gets something that good?

My broken cheese is ok because in 7th ed someone else had broken cheese? I don't think that argument is going to win hearts and minds on this topic. I'd be guessing if I said how much of an increase, but 1 point per model seems insufficient. It needs to discourage spam, and unfortunately that probably means a drastic increase to the point where they become a speciality unit.

Weird, someone above you said 1ppm seemed good. Funny how there are differing opinions.. there always will be. No more than 2 ppm, is what I would say. It doesn't need to be repainted so high that I "think" about taking it but am not sure. Gw doesn't want that either as they want to sell kits. They want me to want to take it.

people above him said 1ppm scion 1 ppm plasmagun...


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Arachnofiend wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Arandmoor wrote:
The only disadvantage is that you won't be able to count on your bloodthirsters or lords of change showing up ever since you'll only get the 17+ you need to summon them on 1 in 54 rituals without command points. And then with a command point it's roughly a 1 in 3 chance after you get the double-6 you otherwise should be waiting for (1 in 12 to get double 6, including natural 17's and 18's)

You also cannot move the turn you summon. You also can only summon from the same faction (unless you don't have a faction keyword). It also had a good chance to injure the summoner.

It's not a problem if a character is already engaged in a fight, but it's a big hinderance in other cases.

It's not as big of a problem as you'd think, depending on what you summon. I've already had some success just using summoning to plop Exalted Flamers into firing range without risking them getting shot first. I'm sure a smarter/more experienced player can come up with much better tricks than that.

I find it kinda crappy necrons and medic types can resummon a model into a unit and not pay for these new models whereas chaos needs to pay for every model they summon. I would rather see chaos summon abilities be either pay for a new summoned unit or resummon a set amount of slain models to a unit for no cost.

gungo wrote:
I find it kinda crappy necrons and medic types can resummon a model into a unit and not pay for these new models whereas chaos needs to pay for every model they summon. I would rather see chaos summon abilities be either pay for a new summoned unit or resummon a set amount of slain models to a unit for no cost.

Well, icons can re-summon slain models for free, only 1 in 6 chance when you take a morale test though. Not as good as necron, but probably about on par with most medic type units.

 mrhappyface wrote:
Strange that WE and CSM are doing so badly, I've been quite happy with the couple of games I've played with them. Maybe it's because comp play hasn't hit our group yet. :/

I've been killing it with Thousand Sons. I do take Magnus so that's probably something to do with it, but everything in my army is a solid performer so far.

SilverAlien wrote:

gungo wrote:
I find it kinda crappy necrons and medic types can resummon a model into a unit and not pay for these new models whereas chaos needs to pay for every model they summon. I would rather see chaos summon abilities be either pay for a new summoned unit or resummon a set amount of slain models to a unit for no cost.

Well, icons can re-summon slain models for free, only 1 in 6 chance when you take a morale test though. Not as good as necron, but probably about on par with most medic type units.

I just wish that they increased the cost of horrors but let them split for free for ease of use. I know it is better to just set aside points that can be used for either splits or summoning different things, but it would have been nice to just say: Horrors are 15-18 points each, and they split into blues and blues split to brims for free. I have only split 1 blue horror into a brimstone so far because I had 13 extra points I didn't spend.

I also wish GW was more black and white on what costed points and what didn't. Horrors say in italics that splitting costs points, meanwhile spore mines say in their rules that they don't cost anything when placed in normal text. I just wish other stuff all said what does and does not cost points, like Tervegons say nothing either way but most consider it not costing to replenish squads but making new ones does.

Edit:

I've been killing it with Thousand Sons. I do take Magnus so that's probably something to do with it, but everything in my army is a solid performer so far.

As a 1k player it is nice to hear that. I've been playing with Heldrakes, Fire Raptor, Forgefiends, and Tzaangors so I haven't really tested our Rubrics beyond a 6 man squad. If everything seems solid enough I will be a happy Thousand Son player because I'll be able to play my first army again without having to hunt down more and more useful stuff just to be able to play and not get wiped off the board.

I will say, a Daemon Prince babysitting a Hades Fiend casting prescience is pretty scary in my opponents eyes so far.

SilverAlien wrote:

gungo wrote:
I find it kinda crappy necrons and medic types can resummon a model into a unit and not pay for these new models whereas chaos needs to pay for every model they summon. I would rather see chaos summon abilities be either pay for a new summoned unit or resummon a set amount of slain models to a unit for no cost.

Well, icons can re-summon slain models for free, only 1 in 6 chance when you take a morale test though. Not as good as necron, but probably about on par with most medic type units.

Your QQ lacks army context.

Apothicaries are HQ characters now, so they are open to sniping AND give up kill points.

Necrons have always paid for WBB/RP through a number of other disadvantages. Not the least of which is a distinct lack of sergeants with loads of weapons you can hide in a squad.

Hell, in 4th, 5th, and most of 6th edition, Necrons didn't have any options at all.

Also, finally sweeping advance isn't a thing.

Finally.

I've hated sweeping advance for almost 15 years with the burning passion of a million suns.

Xenomancers wrote:A skilled wargammer can figure a game out just by reading all the index and playing a few games to see rules in action. The meta is already defined by what is good and what is not good.

These results show that.

MSU Deep Strike
Hordes

That's that meta.

Well, as awed as I am by your superior wargaming skills, history has shown that even with the release of individual dexes, its taken months for people to iron out their own personal lists, and top strategys have gone under the radar or been unnoticed for that long as well. So you'll forgive my skepticism when you say that you've solved every dex at once after all being released at the same time, with a brand new set of core rules, after just one week's worth of play.



Plus just looking at the ONLY two things you named as good, I don't really know if I'm convinced that your high level wargaming skills are as competent as you might believe they are, because you might have missed just one or two things there hotshot.







I agree that critical thinking goes a long way and isn't something many people on this forum seem eager to make use of, preferring to coast off other people's examples. However, I also thinking critical thinking goes hand in hand with experience.

You guys see the "blood angels" list that actually won Boise? Ha, the only thing Blood Angels about it is the heavy flamer in the 1 tactical squad (patrol detach), the rest is just a flyer wing.

I wonder how that list would do in maelstrom games?

 SHUPPET wrote:

Xenomancers wrote:A skilled wargammer can figure a game out just by reading all the index and playing a few games to see rules in action. The meta is already defined by what is good and what is not good.

These results show that.

MSU Deep Strike
Hordes

That's that meta.

Well, as awed as I am by your superior wargaming skills, history has shown that even with the release of individual dexes, its taken months for people to iron out their own personal lists, and top strategys have gone under the radar or been unnoticed for that long as well. So you'll forgive my skepticism when you say that you've solved every dex at once after all being released at the same time, with a brand new set of core rules, after just one week's worth of play.



Plus just looking at the ONLY two things you named as good, I don't really know if I'm convinced that your high level wargaming skills are as competent as you might believe they are, because you might have missed just one or two things there hotshot.







I agree that critical thinking goes a long way and isn't something many people on this forum seem eager to make use of, preferring to coast off other people's examples. However, I also thinking critical thinking goes hand in hand with experience.

You'll have to forgive him, he honestly has been this way in any thread. He is one of the more.. "upset" ones that armies other than his got buffs.

In the summary list I see a number of armies listed twice under different names, is that because they had a distinctly different composition or (more likely, in my mind) because either the player or the local meta call it by one name over another.

Chief example in my mind is the top-ranked item being Adeptus Ministorum, logically that'd be rolled into Adepta Sororitas, making their average 74.6.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Xenomancers wrote:A skilled wargammer can figure a game out just by reading all the index and playing a few games to see rules in action. The meta is already defined by what is good and what is not good.

These results show that.

MSU Deep Strike
Hordes

That's that meta.

Well, as awed as I am by your superior wargaming skills, history has shown that even with the release of individual dexes, its taken months for people to iron out their own personal lists, and top strategys have gone under the radar or been unnoticed for that long as well. So you'll forgive my skepticism when you say that you've solved every dex at once after all being released at the same time, with a brand new set of core rules, after just one week's worth of play.



Plus just looking at the ONLY two things you named as good, I don't really know if I'm convinced that your high level wargaming skills are as competent as you might believe they are, because you might have missed just one or two things there hotshot.







I agree that critical thinking goes a long way and isn't something many people on this forum seem eager to make use of, preferring to coast off other people's examples. However, I also thinking critical thinking goes hand in hand with experience.

You'll have to forgive him, he honestly has been this way in any thread. He is one of the more.. "upset" ones that armies other than his got buffs.

No worries, I'm not around here that much, however some how I could tell that was the case just based off seeing that single post. Oh well. It's funny to see when these people start losing with a perfectly capable army instead of being carried by it, that they explain it by blaming the game instead of facing the reality that they might just not be as "high-level" as they think they are....

Very curious to see how this list expands over coming weeks. Just one week, sample size is to small, as we see only 1 army for half of the factions.

 Gunzhard wrote:
You guys see the "blood angels" list that actually won Boise? Ha, the only thing Blood Angels about it is the heavy flamer in the 1 tactical squad (patrol detach), the rest is just a flyer wing.

I wonder how that list would do in maelstrom games?

He is lucky he didn't end up with a relic mission. But yeah I'm a little concerned that one of the most significant tournaments to happen this weekend was won by such a blatant gimmick lists. There were a lot of gimmick lists in that tourney as well. At this point I'll chock it up to people not knowing how to deal with them.