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Malcador Battle Tank and Defender are heavy support now right? Is that the same for regular guard

Niiru wrote:

Aren't Earthshakers pretty expensive though?

It's a shame renegades can't take Cyclops Demolition vehicles. That would bring some Chaos.

1) I mean, compared to some things yes, but they are fairly reliable for what they are...and as far as artillery goes they are our/Guard's cheapest option really. The problem is artillery is hugely overcosted in 8th period.

2) Hard agree about the Cyclops. :(

 Intercessor wrote:
Malcador Battle Tank and Defender are heavy support now right? Is that the same for regular guard

Yup, HS. Same for both, since Renegades just use Guard profiles for their "shared" units anyhow.

 exliontamer wrote:

Niiru wrote:

Aren't Earthshakers pretty expensive though?

It's a shame renegades can't take Cyclops Demolition vehicles. That would bring some Chaos.

1) I mean, compared to some things yes, but they are fairly reliable for what they are...and as far as artillery goes they are our/Guard's cheapest option really. The problem is artillery is hugely overcosted in 8th period.

2) Hard agree about the Cyclops. :(

 Intercessor wrote:
Malcador Battle Tank and Defender are heavy support now right? Is that the same for regular guard

Yup, HS. Same for both, since Renegades just use Guard profiles for their "shared" units anyhow.

For the price of 2 Earthshakers, I could instead get 3 Rapier Quad Heavy Bolters. Doesn't ignore LOS, but it's 36 shots at BS3+, instead of 2D6 shots at BS4+. Earthshaker has more strength and damage though, but dunno if its enough to make up for 24-34 extra shots.

Edit - Also yes, Cyclops would be so awesome. Tempted to just include some anyway. Screw the rules!

Niiru wrote:


For the price of 2 Earthshakers, I could instead get 3 Rapier Quad Heavy Bolters. Doesn't ignore LOS, but it's 36 shots at BS3+, instead of 2D6 shots at BS4+. Earthshaker has more strength and damage though, but dunno if its enough to make up for 24-34 extra shots.

Edit - Also yes, Cyclops would be so awesome. Tempted to just include some anyway. Screw the rules!

I mean Renegades are awful, you're not going to get any arguments out of me. I was constraining myself to Renegade units because that was the question asked, but if you are going to start talking about CSM units then you should really just be taking a CSM force. The Rapier Quad HB is ridiculous, total agreement.

Hey there, I'm still new to tabletop, got around 1,500 of admech and decided to start a renegade list.

So far I got a lovely lady chaos hellwright,(pride of my paint/converting work) and 3 marauder squads of 5 with 2 grenade launchers apiece.
Using tech thrall models with guard arms weapons, dark mech army
I plan on getting a traitor knight soon to compliment the tech thralls and lady.
Also got ursiax(claw thallax) to be warp talons enslaved by my dark mechanicus lady, for the fluff.

My question is what kind of troop(or elite) should be my main force, it will decide the models and bits I pick up on ebay.
I'm leaning on traitor militia only because I can use forgeworld solar auxilia models for them(plus they look techy)

Also any advice is appreciated.

 Magos-Macrotek-Danny wrote:
Hey there, I'm still new to tabletop, got around 1,500 of admech and decided to start a renegade list.

So far I got a lovely lady chaos hellwright,(pride of my paint/converting work) and 3 marauder squads of 5 with 2 grenade launchers apiece.
Using tech thrall models with guard arms weapons, dark mech army
I plan on getting a traitor knight soon to compliment the tech thralls and lady.
Also got ursiax(claw thallax) to be warp talons enslaved by my dark mechanicus lady, for the fluff.

My question is what kind of troop(or elite) should be my main force, it will decide the models and bits I pick up on ebay.
I'm leaning on traitor militia only because I can use forgeworld solar auxilia models for them(plus they look techy)

Also any advice is appreciated.

Well it's only polite to show us this lady hellwright conversion

(I have no advice to give, I just want to see the model )

Though I'm also considering a Dark Mech army, and am doing my own conversion plans atm, and I also considered renegades. However I may just run CSM Cultists, which you could also use those solar auxilia models for. Just as an option.

Niiru wrote:

 Magos-Macrotek-Danny wrote:
Hey there, I'm still new to tabletop, got around 1,500 of admech and decided to start a renegade list.

So far I got a lovely lady chaos hellwright,(pride of my paint/converting work) and 3 marauder squads of 5 with 2 grenade launchers apiece.
Using tech thrall models with guard arms weapons, dark mech army
I plan on getting a traitor knight soon to compliment the tech thralls and lady.
Also got ursiax(claw thallax) to be warp talons enslaved by my dark mechanicus lady, for the fluff.

My question is what kind of troop(or elite) should be my main force, it will decide the models and bits I pick up on ebay.
I'm leaning on traitor militia only because I can use forgeworld solar auxilia models for them(plus they look techy)

Also any advice is appreciated.

Well it's only polite to show us this lady hellwright conversion

(I have no advice to give, I just want to see the model )

Though I'm also considering a Dark Mech army, and am doing my own conversion plans atm, and I also considered renegades. However I may just run CSM Cultists, which you could also use those solar auxilia models for. Just as an option.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Still need work but that's the general color scheme of the rust cult.

That conversion is beatiful, well done!

Has anyone had any success with pure Renegades and Heretics lists yet?

 Intercessor wrote:
That conversion is beatiful, well done!

Has anyone had any success with pure Renegades and Heretics lists yet?

In my case I had many victories with my R&H pure lists. My army is based heavily on infantery and supported by some tanks like a couple or three Leman russ variant tanks and artillery.

Usually I play 1500-2000p lists (or 80-100PL, both cases are almost the same) but I have to admit it's not easy to win with them but so satisfy.

Am I missing something from the FAQ's / Index?

I have a Malcador heavy R+H army which includes a Valdor as the serious anti tank, but it looks like I cannot take it (despite the model coming with Renegade crew).

Has this been rectified anywhere yet?

E-mail forgeworld about it

Have done. Got the generic ‘thanks for this, will pass it on’ reply and a suggestion to forward it to the 40k faq team (which I have done).

Just didn’t know if I’d missed some minor FAQ point or something that allowed it

Any new thoughts on R&H lists?

I've always wanted to run one, fluffy, renegade psykers leading mutants and Spawn, basically a CC based list. Purely based on theme and aesthetics.

With most of the codecies out, have things changed for us, or should I just wait and use GSC rules?

 Blndmage wrote:
Any new thoughts on R&H lists?

I've always wanted to run one, fluffy, renegade psykers leading mutants and Spawn, basically a CC based list. Purely based on theme and aesthetics.

With most of the codecies out, have things changed for us, or should I just wait and use GSC rules?

They are de facto SQUATted in 8th. If you view FW website now, you would find most Renegades related products gone and discontinued.

To use GSC rules instead is a wise idea.

 Zmanzeta wrote:

 Intercessor wrote:
That conversion is beatiful, well done!

Has anyone had any success with pure Renegades and Heretics lists yet?

In my case I had many victories with my R&H pure lists. My army is based heavily on infantery and supported by some tanks like a couple or three Leman russ variant tanks and artillery.

Usually I play 1500-2000p lists (or 80-100PL, both cases are almost the same) but I have to admit it's not easy to win with them but so satisfy.

Can you post a list please?

one good tactic is a commander with inspiring leadership sitting with commamd squads with vox casters to spread the buff to all units with casters.

Also if i drop orgyns and a few hqs from a Valkyrie using grav chuts can the hqs summon deamons in their deployment zone or do They count as reserves?

 tokugawa wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:
Any new thoughts on R&H lists?

I've always wanted to run one, fluffy, renegade psykers leading mutants and Spawn, basically a CC based list. Purely based on theme and aesthetics.

With most of the codecies out, have things changed for us, or should I just wait and use GSC rules?

They are de facto SQUATted in 8th. If you view FW website now, you would find most Renegades related products gone and discontinued.

To use GSC rules instead is a wise idea.

I realize I am posting to an older thread but nobody addressed this post and it contains so much misinformation I felt I had to.

R&H have NOT been 'Squatted' either de facto or de jure. Their model line has disappeared from FW, this is true, but they went to the bother of giving us explicit (if kinda crappy) rules for 8th Ed.

Yes, they are in a bad place. No, they have not disappeared.

 Excommunicatus wrote:

 tokugawa wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:
Any new thoughts on R&H lists?

I've always wanted to run one, fluffy, renegade psykers leading mutants and Spawn, basically a CC based list. Purely based on theme and aesthetics.

With most of the codecies out, have things changed for us, or should I just wait and use GSC rules?

They are de facto SQUATted in 8th. If you view FW website now, you would find most Renegades related products gone and discontinued.

To use GSC rules instead is a wise idea.

I realize I am posting to an older thread but nobody addressed this post and it contains so much misinformation I felt I had to.

R&H have NOT been 'Squatted' either de facto or de jure. Their model line has disappeared from FW, this is true, but they went to the bother of giving us explicit (if kinda crappy) rules for 8th Ed.

Yes, they are in a bad place. No, they have not disappeared.

They gave rushed and incomplete rules for 8th edition. Followed by no updates or fixes to the errors that exist.

The only standout good unit in the R&H index got nerfed so bad his ancestors got cancer.

Forgeworld then totally removed the entire R&H line from sale. It no longer exists. No comment or release to say that it was temporary or that anything was happening with the moulds. Just gone.


So basically there's 2 possible outcomes:

1) GW are planning to make R&H a mainstream army choice, releasing a full official R&H / Lost and Damned codex along with a full line of plastic models.

2) GW have decided its a largely conversion-based army, and as they have decided in 8th to remove all unit choices that rely on conversion ("no model, no rules"), they decided just to squat the R&H line. If people want renegade guard, they can just run normal guard and add spikes to the models.


Going from GW history, version 2 is the one most people believe/expect, as it's the one with the most precedent. I'd personally prefer if version 1 was the case, but it's doubtful. Or at least, it won't happen for several years, as 2019 and 2020 are already planned out.

So you used a lot of words to agree that they have crappy rules and still exist.

Coolbeans.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
So you used a lot of words to agree that they have crappy rules and still exist.

Coolbeans.

I mean... sure.

Not sure why you even brought it up if you were going to live in your own little world about it regardless of the response.

You even necro'd an old tactica thread that seems to only get about 1 post a month at best, just to... what? Try and tell people that R&H are alive and well?

If that was true, they would have a much more active tactica for starters. And they'd have models for sale.

To advise that R&H have not been Squatted, de facto or de jure. It's fairly explicit.

Honestly, I'm not sure why you responded to me with a whole bunch of answers to questions I didn't pose or follow-ons from things I didn't say.

I said they existed. They do.
I said they had crappy rules. They do.
I said they still exist. They do.

At no point did I argue that yes, absolutely everyone should pile on the bandwagon with zero-to-no-concerns, even if I think your concerns are hilariously overblown and melodramatic. To the contrary, I openly stated that they were in "a bad place".

They are easily the worst army in tge game.
They gave us just enough to field the army since they promised to make all armies useable but the index is broken i doubt we will get any love making us useless as a pure army.

Best thing they could do is give us a rule to make AM useable with chaos just like brood brothers since AM is still supported. Hopefully they will give us the ability to choose a chaos god which will be in the keyword and a unique relic, order, and stratagem just like regiments do but I dont see it hsppening nor a codex to fix the mess we are in

R&H are bad by themselves, but GK are currently much worse IMO, to the point of being almost completely unusable.

R&H are decent enough as part of a soup. They give you 10CP and six ObSec units for less than 350pts, at least. That's something.

In my experience, adding Basilisks and LR support for melee Daemons works well too, since the vehicles have AM BS. That said, we get shafted there too, since we pay the same prices as AM but our vehicles can't accept Orders or be subject to a Doctrine, or whatever they're called.

I was meanimg as pure armies. Atleast gk hwve stratagems. Otherwise you can say the same about using gk as allies to guard and gk smite spame be deadly

No, you can't. You can argue that AM improves GK, you can't argue GK improves anything, except highly-situational anti-Daemon ability that they always have to pay for.

GK 'Smite' is literally the weakest in the game. Sure, they get a lot of it, but it's less than half as effective as regular Smite and it's another (bad) ability that they always have to pay for.

Three GK Terminator Squads will deal, on average, less than 3MW per phase with their version of Smite. Three Malefic Lords, for example, will average nearly 5.5 with real Smite.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
No, you can't. You can argue that AM improves GK, you can't argue GK improves anything, except highly-situational anti-Daemon ability that they always have to pay for.

GK 'Smite' is literally the weakest in the game. Sure, they get a lot of it, but it's less than half as effective as regular Smite and it's another (bad) ability that they always have to pay for.

Three GK Terminator Squads will deal, on average, less than 3MW per phase with their version of Smite. Three Malefic Lords, for example, will average nearly 5.5 with real Smite.

A less silly comparison would be Malefic Lord vs Strike Squads.
The strike squads cost about 20 points more, but you get 1 more wound, 2 more attacks, way way WAY more shooting (which more than makes up for the smite ability), better psychic power choices, better WS, better BS, and the ability to deep strike.

I agree, the Malefic Lord is probably among the best units available for R&H. It's also terrible and overpriced. For the points, a strike squad is just better defensively and offensively and tactically. All the Lord has going for it is that it's a character and it fills a HQ slot.

And that's talking about a strike squad, which is basically an expensive tactical squad, and everyone knows tac squads are in a bad place right now. Which shows just how garbage the lord is now. (At 40 points it was ok, a decent choice. At 80 points, it's... well, nobody plays R&H anymore).

Niiru wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
No, you can't. You can argue that AM improves GK, you can't argue GK improves anything, except highly-situational anti-Daemon ability that they always have to pay for.

GK 'Smite' is literally the weakest in the game. Sure, they get a lot of it, but it's less than half as effective as regular Smite and it's another (bad) ability that they always have to pay for.

Three GK Terminator Squads will deal, on average, less than 3MW per phase with their version of Smite. Three Malefic Lords, for example, will average nearly 5.5 with real Smite.

A less silly comparison would be Malefic Lord vs Strike Squads.
The strike squads cost about 20 points more, but you get 1 more wound, 2 more attacks, way way WAY more shooting (which more than makes up for the smite ability), better psychic power choices, better WS, better BS, and the ability to deep strike.

I agree, the Malefic Lord is probably among the best units available for R&H. It's also terrible and overpriced. For the points, a strike squad is just better defensively and offensively and tactically. All the Lord has going for it is that it's a character and it fills a HQ slot.

And that's talking about a strike squad, which is basically an expensive tactical squad, and everyone knows tac squads are in a bad place right now. Which shows just how garbage the lord is now. (At 40 points it was ok, a decent choice. At 80 points, it's... well, nobody plays R&H anymore).

Thank you for the support

But back to the orgional topic. R&h is best as a cp for other factions(which negates the point of this being an r&h post)and for heavy weapion such as russ tanks (which AM does better) and elites such as maruder snipers and command and diciple heavy weapon teams. Larger troops can be supported with vox, sigles or enforcers but as a battery its cheaper to run as cultist as msu as well as enoforcers take up valuable points and elite slot.
Valk orgyns are devistating alpha strike unit but dont survive long after taking out their target. If accompanied by characters they which survives til turn2 its also great to summon deamons such as plague bearer or bloodletter bomb.

We all need to keep emailing gwfaq team so they can fix the army or replace with a brood bros rule for chaos in the AM codex (not as cool as a new codex but i doubt we will ever get one) it will also make us meta and supported . With chspter apprived coming soon we need to do this asap.

Niiru wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
No, you can't. You can argue that AM improves GK, you can't argue GK improves anything, except highly-situational anti-Daemon ability that they always have to pay for.

GK 'Smite' is literally the weakest in the game. Sure, they get a lot of it, but it's less than half as effective as regular Smite and it's another (bad) ability that they always have to pay for.

Three GK Terminator Squads will deal, on average, less than 3MW per phase with their version of Smite. Three Malefic Lords, for example, will average nearly 5.5 with real Smite.

A less silly comparison would be Malefic Lord vs Strike Squads.
The strike squads cost about 20 points more, but you get 1 more wound, 2 more attacks, way way WAY more shooting (which more than makes up for the smite ability), better psychic power choices, better WS, better BS, and the ability to deep strike.

I agree, the Malefic Lord is probably among the best units available for R&H. It's also terrible and overpriced. For the points, a strike squad is just better defensively and offensively and tactically. All the Lord has going for it is that it's a character and it fills a HQ slot.

And that's talking about a strike squad, which is basically an expensive tactical squad, and everyone knows tac squads are in a bad place right now. Which shows just how garbage the lord is now. (At 40 points it was ok, a decent choice. At 80 points, it's... well, nobody plays R&H anymore).

First off: no the malefic was not fair at 40 pts with double smite.
Secondly malefic lords were used with brimstone cancer at the start of 8th. That is ONE unit and makes not for an R&H army.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
No, you can't. You can argue that AM improves GK, you can't argue GK improves anything, except highly-situational anti-Daemon ability that they always have to pay for.

GK 'Smite' is literally the weakest in the game. Sure, they get a lot of it, but it's less than half as effective as regular Smite and it's another (bad) ability that they always have to pay for.

Three GK Terminator Squads will deal, on average, less than 3MW per phase with their version of Smite. Three Malefic Lords, for example, will average nearly 5.5 with real Smite.

A less silly comparison would be Malefic Lord vs Strike Squads.
The strike squads cost about 20 points more, but you get 1 more wound, 2 more attacks, way way WAY more shooting (which more than makes up for the smite ability), better psychic power choices, better WS, better BS, and the ability to deep strike.

I agree, the Malefic Lord is probably among the best units available for R&H. It's also terrible and overpriced. For the points, a strike squad is just better defensively and offensively and tactically. All the Lord has going for it is that it's a character and it fills a HQ slot.

And that's talking about a strike squad, which is basically an expensive tactical squad, and everyone knows tac squads are in a bad place right now. Which shows just how garbage the lord is now. (At 40 points it was ok, a decent choice. At 80 points, it's... well, nobody plays R&H anymore).

First off: no the malefic was not fair at 40 pts with double smite.
Secondly malefic lords were used with brimstone cancer at the start of 8th. That is ONE unit and makes not for an R&H army.

Double smite? You mean, single smite, right? Because he can only cast it once.

And with a maximum of 3 malefic lords in an army, getting 3 smites for 120 points is... good. Not crazy, just good.

I'd agree that it's a little cheap, upping him to 60 points would have just made him good but pricey. At 80 points he's just expensive.

Another in-codex comparison - You can get a psyker coven for 100 points. Which gets you the same smite ability, but you get 15 wounds instead of 4.

Another Imperial comparison - Primaris Psyker. Basically identical to a Malefic Lord, except that it costs 40 points (which is apparently fine for IG, and too cheap for R&H). Sure the Malefic had the weird ability to get strong in melee, but I don't think anyone really cared about that. It's certainly too unreliable to be worth a 40 point bump.

Niiru wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
No, you can't. You can argue that AM improves GK, you can't argue GK improves anything, except highly-situational anti-Daemon ability that they always have to pay for.

GK 'Smite' is literally the weakest in the game. Sure, they get a lot of it, but it's less than half as effective as regular Smite and it's another (bad) ability that they always have to pay for.

Three GK Terminator Squads will deal, on average, less than 3MW per phase with their version of Smite. Three Malefic Lords, for example, will average nearly 5.5 with real Smite.

A less silly comparison would be Malefic Lord vs Strike Squads.
The strike squads cost about 20 points more, but you get 1 more wound, 2 more attacks, way way WAY more shooting (which more than makes up for the smite ability), better psychic power choices, better WS, better BS, and the ability to deep strike.

I agree, the Malefic Lord is probably among the best units available for R&H. It's also terrible and overpriced. For the points, a strike squad is just better defensively and offensively and tactically. All the Lord has going for it is that it's a character and it fills a HQ slot.

And that's talking about a strike squad, which is basically an expensive tactical squad, and everyone knows tac squads are in a bad place right now. Which shows just how garbage the lord is now. (At 40 points it was ok, a decent choice. At 80 points, it's... well, nobody plays R&H anymore).

First off: no the malefic was not fair at 40 pts with double smite.
Secondly malefic lords were used with brimstone cancer at the start of 8th. That is ONE unit and makes not for an R&H army.

Double smite? You mean, single smite, right? Because he can only cast it once.

And with a maximum of 3 malefic lords in an army, getting 3 smites for 120 points is... good. Not crazy, just good.

I'd agree that it's a little cheap, upping him to 60 points would have just made him good but pricey. At 80 points he's just expensive.

Another in-codex comparison - You can get a psyker coven for 100 points. Which gets you the same smite ability, but you get 15 wounds instead of 4.

Another Imperial comparison - Primaris Psyker. Basically identical to a Malefic Lord, except that it costs 40 points (which is apparently fine for IG, and too cheap for R&H). Sure the Malefic had the weird ability to get strong in melee, but I don't think anyone really cared about that. It's certainly too unreliable to be worth a 40 point bump.

Nope i meant double smite. Since good old warpflux does exist, which is a anti vehicle smite that can still be used against infantry targets.