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 Galas wrote:
What about Dark Angels?!

From what little I've seen, Dark Angels aren't looking too hot right now : \

 Galas wrote:
What about Dark Angels?!

LOL.
Yep. Forgot about them XD XD XD Which is sad considering a DA player was in the store Sunday.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:

 Bonachinonin wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:


I have no issue with his list, nor do I question his skill, my only issue is that he calls it "Blood Angels" with literally not 1 unit from the BA section of the Index.

His captain and blood angel squad were Blood Angels, but I get what you are saying.

Well kinda, BA share captains and tacticals from the standard astartes list. He didn't take anything from the actual BA section of the Index. Yeah it is just semantics, doesn't mean I have to like it.

Heavy Flamer in TAC squad.

And not all space marines have access to all of those fliers he used. For instance, Space Wolves & Grey Knights.

As it stands right now, you have basically 5 factions of Space Marines: Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and Grey Knights, and Dark Angels. The other aedeptus astartes aren't worth playing, you have severely limited HQ choices. So, yeah, most of the list could have been Ultras, but not all of it. Curious what your point is anyway...

Well I don't really require a point to dislike something. We all take our armies serious here to varying degrees. I've been playing BA since before they had a codex, it just always strikes me a little off when someone cherry picks a 'FT droppod' or a single Heavy Flamer and says they play "Blood Angels". That's all...

 Luciferian wrote:

 Galas wrote:
What about Dark Angels?!

From what little I've seen, Dark Angels aren't looking too hot right now : \

My full Deathwing terminator list has pass from "totally useless" to "At least is playable and can win some games"; so my situation has improve magnitudes

My special favourites are my Knuckles of death (Full Powerclaw Tartaros-patern terminators. They munch trought hordes like a hot knive in butter).
I call that because, I don't know why, they remind me of Knuckles from Sonic the Hedgeog. I painted them red with white hands, even if I use them as Deathwing :

Breng77 wrote:
Given a single seize attempt +1 to going first gives you a 61% chance of getting first turn (55.3% of winning roll and not getting seized, 5.6% chance of losing the roll and seizing).

If double seize is allowed that drops to 56%

If auto go first and only a single seize, you have an 83% chance of going first.

If you allow the re-roll you have a 69% chance of going first.

So since they are going no-reroll on seize, the difference between 61% chance to go first and 83% chance is pretty big.

No reroll for seize is also a departure from raw, so not applicable in a comparison of modified vs raw.

 Bonachinonin wrote:
It was wild. Lists were all over the place.

That's good.

Boise, Idaho? I don't suppose there was anyone there from Spokane, WA or Coeur d'Alene, ID there. I know a few of those guys, but moved to CA back in '12


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 Gamgee wrote:

 Bonachinonin wrote:
Ah I updated my post with some types of armies. I remember two Tau players. One had 5 big suits, Yvarna and riptides I believe. The other did mass crisis suits and farsight.

Bingo. The big suit one was bound to fail. The mass crisis suit one is sad to hear since one player I know has high hopes for them. Do you have a list breakdown of the crisis suit list and their specific load outs?

I have zero hopes for crisis-spam lists until the Tau get a new codex, and that's only if they get a codex that enables crisis spam. The index list, and the way the new edition works, simply does not support it.

Which works for me since I like firewarriors, and any Tau list that does not include them deserves to lose, IMO (I love you all anyway)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bonachinonin wrote:
Crisis suit list - Vanguard Detatchment
Commander - 2 missle pods, ATS shield Generator
Commander - identical as above

Four 5 man suit squads - 4x cyclic ion blaster, 1x missile pod, 5x ATS
Ghost keel - cyclic ion raker, twin burst cannons, ATS, target lock 2x stealth drones

Oh yeah. That's a list with exactly zero staying power. It can't handle any kind of incoming fire, and doesn't have enough firepower of its own to table an opponent fast enough to prevent them from wrecking him in return. What was he thinking bring that to a GT?

The simple fact is that crisis suits rely on a 3+ save and 3W to survive, and there is now a diminishing return to that kind of strategy. Most serious heavy weapons deal d3 to d6 damage, and shoot multiple times. That puts crisis suits in some very, very dangerous positions where an enemy can fire a single tank gun, and deal enough armor-defeating hits to wipe the squad in one shot.

A list like that, if it wants to survive past turn 2, will need to take wall-to-wall shield generators just to survive, and unfortunately that means spending so many points on shield generators that there's no way to take enough guns to make it worth while.

The problem is that you need wounds in order to last past turn 2, and crisis suits are a horrible value due to the preponderance of multi-hit, high-damage guns in this edition, unless you're also fielding something to distract said big guns long enough for the crisis suits to get some work done. 22 suits and a ghost keel? That's 7 battlecannon shots. Potentially.

Drones guys. DRONES! Get with it. Don't just take them in squads. Take them with your crisis teams. Take gundrones and maybe some shield drones. Then far away markerlight drones.

A ghostkeel really doesn't synergize with that list at all.

I've seen some interesting combat reports on crisis heavy lists doing well, but they have to be supplemented with drones and stuff. I think we need to see combat reports of crisis heavy lists that incorporate more drones and supporting elements to see if we can declare it a dead strategy or not. A pure suit list with nothing else is going to suffer.

I've noticed none of the major tournament players have tried troop heavy lists either to give them a shot.

With the exception of the first list the latter two are exactly what I expected to see at the top tables, frankly.

For the former, I haven't paid enough attention to the rules of the SM flyers to make any judgments. That list looks fun as hell to play though.

 Gamgee wrote:


I've noticed none of the major tournament players have tried troop heavy lists either to give them a shot.

That's probably a barrier since lots of Tau never bought a single fire warrior kit.

 Gamgee wrote:
Drones guys. DRONES! Get with it. Don't just take them in squads. Take them with your crisis teams. Take gundrones and maybe some shield drones. Then far away markerlight drones.

If George R.R. Martin wrote Tau: A Game of Drones.

 Robin5t wrote:
That Harlequin list goes against a lot of the weapon choice discussion we've had on here. Cool.

Not really. The embrace remains better with Troupe Masters against most targets. My suspicion is the player decided to go for caresses because they were only bringing a single Troupe Master and the squads might need to operate independently. The caress with Troupe Master is also better against low save hordes than the embrace is, and the Hemlocks certainly have the big stuff on lockdown. I suspect lists that don't involve Hemlocks, and that have more than a single Troupe Master, will still prefer Embraces.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:


I've noticed none of the major tournament players have tried troop heavy lists either to give them a shot.

That's probably a barrier since lots of Tau never bought a single fire warrior kit.

Your right lol. When I told my local Tau players to try troops and drones they looked at me like I was insane haha. I have lot's of firewarriors and when I needed more even if I brought both pathfinders and kroot I would bust out some star wars minis lol. This year I'm actually budgeting in some Kroot and Vespid no more proxies for me now that I can play at my flgs. Alas while I was ready for troops my poor Skyray's are gabrage. :( They were truly one of my best units and one of the most underrated Tau units of 7th. I've even got them in a cool desert camo makes them look like retro 90's desert storm tanks. I've got two squads of Strikers and Pathfinders already done from when I started a few years back. Great models. I want some Breachers since they look so cool.

So of the top ten armies, predictably, half of them were Marines and their variants. Of the top three, two of them were Marines.

I'm not surprised. As much as Marine players are often the most vocal whining about how other armies are OP, their army list has always been solid and competitive.

Matches everything else I've seen too.

Flyers are really strong this edition; I've been playing a couple Ork lists that are flyer only - they've been doing pretty well. Dakkajets are boss. However, they lose to most missions and can't deal with armor so... it's not a great list. That said, the flyers of real armies (SM/AM/etc) can be a massive threat - good BS, lots of guns, cheap.

Curious to see how it plays out.

Also, that third list is not legal - Gulliman is not an HQ; he's a Lord of War. There are no legal combinations of detachments for that many troops and a single HQ.

Also curious to see how a tournament would handle this - an illegal list and too many CPs.

The Sunshark Bomber is pretty good for the Tau but the fighter is still terrible and worse at killing air stuff than the bomber lol. The bomber might be a tad too pricey to justify it's place in a list since so much stuff in the Tau codex is expensive now. A good mid-tier unit if you want to tone down your list a little though.

No idea on the Barracuda. I hope they are good still because I want to pick up a few eventually. Models are fantastic.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:


I've noticed none of the major tournament players have tried troop heavy lists either to give them a shot.

That's probably a barrier since lots of Tau never bought a single fire warrior kit.

I have only 9 magnetized crisis suits. 1 Riptide. 12 Stealth suits. 100 Firewarriors, 50 Breachers, 60 Kroots, 20 kroots hounds, 6 Hammerheads and 8 Devilfish. And a ton... a TON of drones.

I'm loving this new Tau meta

Space Marines being in the finals is exactly what I expected

 niv-mizzet wrote:
I will be forever perplexed at how many people on dakka take the top 3 of a single event and treat it as gospel.

stop ruining our ragefest

The top ten didn't exactly display anything less either. Space Marine players continue to do very well. News at 11.

 Talamare wrote:
Space Marines being in the finals is exactly what I expected

It had a total of six Marines in it. This is one thing that I hated about 7E that seems to have stuck. Lists composed of almost none of what should be the core units of the codex. CSM with only cultists. AM with only Conscripts. SM with no power armor. Etc.

How did the necrons go?

 Gamgee wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:


I've noticed none of the major tournament players have tried troop heavy lists either to give them a shot.

That's probably a barrier since lots of Tau never bought a single fire warrior kit.

Your right lol. When I told my local Tau players to try troops and drones they looked at me like I was insane haha. I have lot's of firewarriors and when I needed more even if I brought both pathfinders and kroot I would bust out some star wars minis lol. This year I'm actually budgeting in some Kroot and Vespid no more proxies for me now that I can play at my flgs. Alas while I was ready for troops my poor Skyray's are gabrage. :( They were truly one of my best units and one of the most underrated Tau units of 7th. I've even got them in a cool desert camo makes them look like retro 90's desert storm tanks. I've got two squads of Strikers and Pathfinders already done from when I started a few years back. Great models. I want some Breachers since they look so cool.

OMG, the Skyray. Who came up with that point cost?

It...it does nothing.

6 Seeker missiles aren't that useful in this edition. They're just not.

When Tau get a 8th edition codex, I'm going to guess that we won't be able to recognise the skyray. That's how much they're going to have to change it, to make it worth taking.

As it stands, it's worth about 40 points. But it somehow got a price tag somewhere around 5 times that.

I don't think the author relized how much he had dropped the cost of Seeker Missiles and Markerlights. IIRC, they've been around 10 points each since roughly 4th edition. Now they're half that at best.


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 Gamgee wrote:
The Sunshark Bomber is pretty good for the Tau but the fighter is still terrible and worse at killing air stuff than the bomber lol. The bomber might be a tad too pricey to justify it's place in a list since so much stuff in the Tau codex is expensive now. A good mid-tier unit if you want to tone down your list a little though.

No idea on the Barracuda. I hope they are good still because I want to pick up a few eventually. Models are fantastic.

IMO, the bomber is near god-tier. It's the only bomber in the game with unlimited bombs, and still deals mortal wounds (on a 4+ vs infantry).

Daemons, for example, are going to hate the Sunshark like few other units.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Talamare wrote:
Space Marines being in the finals is exactly what I expected

It had a total of six Marines in it. This is one thing that I hated about 7E that seems to have stuck. Lists composed of almost none of what should be the core units of the codex. CSM with only cultists. AM with only Conscripts. SM with no power armor. Etc.

This is the issue with a detachment system that actively lets you skip taking Troops as your tax altogether. "Little guys" generally havw not been worth taking in 40k, simply due to "kill gap" rules that exist otherwise.

The current detachment rules mean that all armies can be a version of what would have been unbound in 7th. Now it is tough for a TO to de-legitimize crazy lists since they fit right into the detachment system with minimal hard structure.

Hell, you could freely take models from what would have been across faction lines now because the rules for what can be included in a detachment are so loose.

heckler wrote:
The current detachment rules mean that all armies can be a version of what would have been unbound in 7th. Now it is tough for a TO to de-legitimize crazy lists since they fit right into the detachment system with minimal hard structure.

Hell, you could freely take models from what would have been across faction lines now because the rules for what can be included in a detachment are so loose.

Yes, I'm a little worried about how broad "Imperium" is. Faction-specific buffs are supposed to weigh against this but almost everything like this is a short-range bubble and so it's very easy to get optimal use out of these rules while still having independent units. Possibly codices will introduce more rules like Canticles where a detachment has to be a narrow faction in order to get a benefit, although I suppose this would bring up power creep concerns as the codices trickle out.

I wonder if we will start to see tournaments placing extra restrictions on which detachments can be fielded or designing missions around objective holding to support players who take infantry rather than spamming units like flyers?

I know the tournament organisers at my local club have very strong views on what a "proper" army should look like so it would not surprise me to see this emerge to some extent.

Why not just limit it to 1 detachment per 1000pts (or part thereof). It isn't much of a restriction but puts a curb on some of the sillier things, like two Flyer detachments.

The problem with deciding in a local meta to change list construction is that you omit anyone else from attending your event and put yourselves at a disadvantage when playing in other events. It only really works if the organizers of nationwide events choose a system and it gets adopted by the community at large.

 heckler wrote:
The current detachment rules mean that all armies can be a version of what would have been unbound in 7th. Now it is tough for a TO to de-legitimize crazy lists since they fit right into the detachment system with minimal hard structure.

Hell, you could freely take models from what would have been across faction lines now because the rules for what can be included in a detachment are so loose.

Limit to one detachment?

 Bonachinonin wrote:
Negative, Big suit Tau went 2-3, crisis suit Tau went 1-4.

You are wrong about the tau - I'd say they are top 3. People are just spamming the wrong suits - they should be spamming broadsides. A lot of tau players only have 5 riptides and 2 stormsurge and a farsite bomb in their collections - just wait. I played my tau in a 2v2 with 3 broadsides with missle load out. that one unit did over 1200 points worth of damage and they even tried to kill it.