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 admironheart wrote:
smite is a good for taking a bit out of a flying unit.

I have a question for those who have charged an airborne unit. If you have a squad of infantry with the fly keyword and you make a charge....do you surround the base or just any place under the flyer hull?

I assume the base. But what if you modeled your jump pack units to have a long rod to set them 12" above the tabletop so that you can touch the hull of the airborne unit?

I only glanced at the rules for them so may have missed something.

Bases for everything unless a rule tells you to measure to the model. If you cant fit due to models colliding, invoke WMS.

Use bases. Which means a LOT of models can pack in to assault most fliers.

Real question is what kind of lists is OP fielding - guessing as Orks who, consensus seems, are near the bottom of the power curve currently. Green Tide is one of the very few Ork lists that seems to be reasonably competitive.

 Arandmoor wrote:

Well, you couldn't run an all flyer list before.

In 8th, the Air Wing detachment lets you do that.

Of course you could. Plenty of formations with nothing but flyers.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

pismakron wrote:

Orks dedicated antitank is generally big choppas and power-klaws. There's is nothing in the ork index that works well against, say, a stormraven.

Kustom Mega-kannons work pretty well. You get 5 per Stormraven.

A kustom mega kannon is a 48 point model that will do 1.29 wounds of damage to a stormraven per turn, while doing almost half that amount to itself. It is also a 45€ model.


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 Arandmoor wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
It's a measly -1 to hit.

Orks has a WS of 5+ and have _nothing_ that gets a +1 against flyers. Personally I don't mind playing against flyers, as long as we play maelstrom. But if it's eternal war, I don't want to play against flyers with my ork army. It is just pointless.

Um...traktor beams don't give a +1 to hit?

But they do cause enemy flyers to automatically crash and burn. Which can be a ton of fun...

Traktor kannonz does not have a +1 to hit versus flyers. For some reason they were nerfed hard in 8th, maybe because in 7th they were easily the best anti-flyer unit in the game. In 8th they are actually really good against skimmer transports like wave serpents and devil-fishes, but I don't see anyone using traktor kannonz in 8th edition, because they are useless against anything else.


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 Frozocrone wrote:


That said Mek Gunz are like characters (as in, if they're not the closest unit, they can't be targeted). So they can stick around for at least a turn or two if the Stormravens haven't deleted the rest of the army.

That is only true of the grot crew. Thankfully, because otherwise Mek gunz would be kind of broken


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 BlaxicanX wrote:

I wonder how you managed to survive in the previous editions though when flyers were a straight 6 to hit all the time.

They still are a straight 6 to hit for Orks, you just need to hit them a lot more to take them down.

Didn't they buff Lootas now in the 8th editon? 2 dmg?

I always killed all flyers with my Lootas in 7th edition atleast...
Was fun and worked really well.

 Elbows wrote:

 3orangewhips wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
If you don't like playing against someone's army, don't play against it. That simple. This isn't an issue. If I play a game against an army that is simply not fun to play against (or the person's a dick) - no more games with them. No worries.

It's not always that simple, nor does it provide an absence of concern.

Stormravens might need a nerf, or some armies need some help against flyers, or both. But the problem is ALSO 1st turn alpha strike. And GK are pretty dependent on those stormravens (maybe less after the codex is released).

Even if you take significant anti-flyer power, "what do you think the flyers are going to target first?" -Reece from Frontline Gaming.

So, this becomes a simple conversation with the person you're playing. "Hey man, that flyer really kills the game for me - can you run a list without it?" or "Hey boss, the last time I played against an army fielding that flyer/those flyers, it was really boring/awful, so I'll pass."

Please don't tell me you actually start conversations with strangers using "Hey boss"

Himmelweiss wrote:
Didn't they buff Lootas now in the 8th editon? 2 dmg?

I always killed all flyers with my Lootas in 7th edition atleast...
Was fun and worked really well.

To kill a single stormraven in a single turn of shooting you need more than 1400 points of lootas. And you know, that are very fragile, being single wound infantry with a 6+ save.

To everyone who thinks that flyers are ''fine''

1-They are hard to hit

2-They can move any directions

3-They can shoot any directions

4-They start on the table

5-You can play 3-5 according to 1 detachement...

6-They carry a gak load of guns

7-They are underpriced

8-So far in the last 4 GT, the top lists had 4-6 stormravens...

9-You can't charge them

10-They are really resistant


For those of you who thinks they are ''not as good as flyers in the v7'', please open your rulebook... They are only easier to hit... Which is a small detail compared to their new mouvement, their toughness, their armor, their balistic skill, their arsenal, their price, the new detachement, their new capacity to attack at 360 degree and so on....

Just look at the past events space marines fans The Eldars' hate is gone now

Does the OP even bring AA weaponry? If not, you can't complain about not dealing with Flyers.

I don't have flyers and I have no problem with flyers because I have invested in AA units.

 Otto Weston wrote:
Does the OP even bring AA weaponry? If not, you can't complain about not dealing with Flyers.

I don't have flyers and I have no problem with flyers because I have invested in AA units.

What AA units would you bring as an Ork player?

alex0911 wrote:
To everyone who thinks that flyers are ''fine''

1-They are hard to hit

2-They can move any directions

3-They can shoot any directions

4-They start on the table

5-You can play 3-5 according to 1 detachement...

6-They carry a gak load of guns

7-They are underpriced

8-So far in the last 4 GT, the top lists had 4-6 stormravens...

9-You can't charge them

10-They are really resistant


For those of you who thinks they are ''not as good as flyers in the v7'', please open your rulebook... They are only easier to hit... Which is a small detail compared to their new mouvement, their toughness, their armor, their balistic skill, their arsenal, their price, the new detachement, their new capacity to attack at 360 degree and so on....

Just look at the past events space marines fans The Eldars' hate is gone now

More or less this. I'm not opposed to flyers, but to say that they were in anyway better last edition because you only hit them on 6s, negates all the gains they made in 8th.

1.) They start on the table, previously they were subject to poor reserve rolls keeping them out of the game at times.
2.) Heavy flyer armies are low unit count, as such they go first and can alpha strike.
3.) 360 degree firing arc is a huge buff, who remembers the Heldrake in 6th when it had that ability, that is what made it super strong. Now all flyers have this.
4.) Most weapons got damage output boosted, especially on the storm raven. In 7th the storm raven had 1 lascannon shot (that re-rolled misses), 3 heavy bolter shots (re-rolling misses), at best 12 hurricane bolter shots (which could rarely hit the same unit), and 4 missiles that were one use only.) In 8th it has 2 lascannon shots, 6 heavy bolter shots, 24 Hurricane bolter shots, and 2 missiles that are no longer 1 use only. (any other configuration has the same results).
5.) They did not have as much of a price increase as many other vehicles (storm raven is up about 60 points/26%, the landraider for example got a 42% bump, the predator 75%).
6.) They are one of only 2 unit types that can take a formation with no required HQ
7.) They can score while flying.

In the end I think a good fix (possibly in addition to some point adjustments for the worst offenders) would be to limit flyers to 1 per detachment, and ban the air wing detachment.

This maxes out flyers at 3 per army (if you use the suggested limit), which is still tough, but at least it forces your opponent to bring something other than flyers to the table.


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 Otto Weston wrote:
Does the OP even bring AA weaponry? If not, you can't complain about not dealing with Flyers.

I don't have flyers and I have no problem with flyers because I have invested in AA units.

Not all armies have AA units. He plays orks what is their AA unit. The only decent one is stormboyz in the assault. Also since the Ravens are almost an auto- go first army, they alpha strike his AA units, and then he is back to square 1.

pismakron wrote:

teknoskan wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

3. They can't be charged

That is Airborne units. Flyers can still be charged. It's a strange mechanic, but it's true. I have Skyweavers that are flyers and they get charged all the time.

As far as flyers go, they are not "flyer super great omfg", vehicles in particular have become a viable target for footsloggers now. Lay on the dakka and you're likely to destroy quite a few flyers in short order.

As for the OP, you don't have to play against flyers. However, don't expect to be taken seriously at tournaments or the like if you refuse to play games against flyers. Every army is different, and requires different strategy to be successful. If you're having trouble against flyers, change up your game plan. Practice, practice, practice. Take every loss as a learning experience to get better.

The op was referring to "airborne" flyers with the "hard to hit" rule.

Orks really has only two options when it comes to those fliers. Play maelstrom or concede. Regards

Orks have several options that can deal with a reasonable amount of flyers. 5 stormravens, yeah that's a skew list, just like any skew list you play to the mission. But I had little trouble downing a pair of stormhawks over the course of a full 2000 point game with a mix of tankbustas, flash gits, a SAG mek, and rokkits from Killa Kanz.

Gretchin based units seem like the most reliable answer because they still get a solid 5+ to hit. I'd go with Kannons as the best option, followed by KMKs or Trakktors. I've been using a load of kannons anyway with my speed freeks, because with 6 of them you can easily crack open a vehicle or two turn 1, or sweep away a good amount of bubblewrap before your assault troops get stuck in. Also Killa Kanz (which should 100% always be armed with rokkits now IMO) are good, solid, reliable TAC anti heavy units. Unit of six with a waaagh banner nob are an excellent crunchy center to any ork horde list.

I don't think there's any good assault answer to them, however. We can't get any all heavy weapon chargers, and the darned things are just too durable to assault with stormboyz.

the_scotsman wrote:


Orks have several options that can deal with a reasonable amount of flyers. 5 stormravens, yeah that's a skew list, just like any skew list you play to the mission. But I had little trouble downing a pair of stormhawks over the course of a full 2000 point game with a mix of tankbustas, flash gits, a SAG mek, and rokkits from Killa Kanz.

Gretchin based units seem like the most reliable answer because they still get a solid 5+ to hit. I'd go with Kannons as the best option, followed by KMKs or Trakktors. I've been using a load of kannons anyway with my speed freeks, because with 6 of them you can easily crack open a vehicle or two turn 1, or sweep away a good amount of bubblewrap before your assault troops get stuck in. Also Killa Kanz (which should 100% always be armed with rokkits now IMO) are good, solid, reliable TAC anti heavy units. Unit of six with a waaagh banner nob are an excellent crunchy center to any ork horde list.

I don't think there's any good assault answer to them, however. We can't get any all heavy weapon chargers, and the darned things are just too durable to assault with stormboyz.

A kannon will do 0.5 wounds of damage on a stormraven per turn of shooting. To counter two stormravens you need an obscene amount of kannonz, no less than twenty. Six kannonz will bring down a stormraven on your fifth turn of shooting, assuming the kannonz are left unharmed for five turns.

All these flyer complaints seem to be about Stormraven spam. Is it certain that flyers in general are OP? Maybe it is just Stormravens? (And punisher Vultures...)

pismakron wrote:

 Otto Weston wrote:
Does the OP even bring AA weaponry? If not, you can't complain about not dealing with Flyers.

I don't have flyers and I have no problem with flyers because I have invested in AA units.

What AA units would you bring as an Ork player?

Firestorm Redoubt.

I will say, though, that any stacking negative modifiers get bad, quick, for orks. For example, unless I'm mistaken, orks cannot shoot at raven guard flyers out of 12". -1 to hit for flyer, -1 to hit for raven guard, need a 7+ to hit. Can't be done.

pismakron wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


Orks have several options that can deal with a reasonable amount of flyers. 5 stormravens, yeah that's a skew list, just like any skew list you play to the mission. But I had little trouble downing a pair of stormhawks over the course of a full 2000 point game with a mix of tankbustas, flash gits, a SAG mek, and rokkits from Killa Kanz.

Gretchin based units seem like the most reliable answer because they still get a solid 5+ to hit. I'd go with Kannons as the best option, followed by KMKs or Trakktors. I've been using a load of kannons anyway with my speed freeks, because with 6 of them you can easily crack open a vehicle or two turn 1, or sweep away a good amount of bubblewrap before your assault troops get stuck in. Also Killa Kanz (which should 100% always be armed with rokkits now IMO) are good, solid, reliable TAC anti heavy units. Unit of six with a waaagh banner nob are an excellent crunchy center to any ork horde list.

I don't think there's any good assault answer to them, however. We can't get any all heavy weapon chargers, and the darned things are just too durable to assault with stormboyz.

A kannon will do 0.5 wounds of damage on a stormraven per turn of shooting. To counter two stormravens you need an obscene amount of kannonz, no less than twenty. Six kannonz will bring down a stormraven on your fifth turn of shooting, assuming the kannonz are left unharmed for five turns.

My six kannons are also 114 points, not my whole army. If I'm playing my speed freek list, I am mobile enough that I probably wouldn't bother fighting two stormravens until I'd killed everything else on the ground, and then it'd be a matter of throwing literally everything I've got left on turn 2-3 at one until it dies. If my opponent is starting turn 1 at what is basically a 532+whatever he's got in the flyers point deficit, you can bet I'm going to fight whatever else he has unless he drives one of those planes right up to my army and lets me have at it. And if he does, I've got enough dakka between my tankbustas, buggies, koptas, and kannons, that my two stormboy squads and 2 deffcoptas can finish it off in melee and auto-kill the occupants (And I would only give up tempo to kill the plane if he had positioned it in such a way that I could surround it and auto-kill the occupants after destroying the plane.) If he doesn't, I've got a solid turn where 700-850 points of my opponent's army is sitting in those two footprints up in the air.

Against my grot based list, I can comfortably shoot 1.5 stormravens down from 24" range, but that's with a lot of grot BS rokkits from my grot tanks and killa kanz.

No, orks don't have the means to deal 14 wounds against a 266 point stormraven for 266 points. If you want to alpha strike anything off the board in one turn, you generally have to apply 2-3 times the point value to do it, unless you've got some real specialized stuff like an all plasma unit vs MEQ or an all melta unit against tanks in melta range. Equal points of Kannonz to Stormravens deals a comfortable 6 wounds from long range, but that's averages on D6 damage. in reality, it's going to be a lot swingier - get a lucky high damage roll or two, and you could easily chunk it down to BS4+ or 5+ in one turn. That's pretty solid considering that they're also a good TAC option against any armor, and a decent one against hordes with the frag shell. (this is probably why the winning tournament list we saw recently on blood of kittens took like 10 kannons).

Meanwhile, that stormraven removes about 40 points worth of ork boyz and 20 points of ork vehicles per turn very reliably. If you can kill it in 4-5 turns, you can do it before it makes its points back.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I will say, though, that any stacking negative modifiers get bad, quick, for orks. For example, unless I'm mistaken, orks cannot shoot at raven guard flyers out of 12". -1 to hit for flyer, -1 to hit for raven guard, need a 7+ to hit. Can't be done.

Chapter Tactics only work for Infantry, Dreadnaughts, and Bikes

So don't worry about that.

Ah, ok, thanks. I wonder if the dark angel darkshroud can affect flyers.

pismakron wrote:

 Otto Weston wrote:
Does the OP even bring AA weaponry? If not, you can't complain about not dealing with Flyers.

I don't have flyers and I have no problem with flyers because I have invested in AA units.

What AA units would you bring as an Ork player?

Everyone's saying what good AA is there for Orks?

Uh, Traktor Kannons..... fething terrifyingly strong AA.

 Otto Weston wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 Otto Weston wrote:
Does the OP even bring AA weaponry? If not, you can't complain about not dealing with Flyers.

I don't have flyers and I have no problem with flyers because I have invested in AA units.

What AA units would you bring as an Ork player?

Everyone's saying what good AA is there for Orks?

Uh, Traktor Kannons..... fething terrifyingly strong AA.

Eh......I disagree. For one thing, they still hit on 5s. For another, they get one shot, as opposed to the KMK's D6 shots. And it has one less AP to boot. Granted, it does D6 damage instead of D3, but I'll take D6 shots at D3 damage with one extra AP over 1 shot at D6 damage any day of the week, even with gets hot, especially if the hit roll is the same. Traktor kannons also cause flyers to automatically explode if destroyed, but I still feel their power output is still not worth it.

I'd prefer smasha guns over traktor kannons too. Same profile, always D6 damage, -4 to saves. A little silly for wounding, granted, but still pretty effective on most flyers, and other targets too.

 Otto Weston wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 Otto Weston wrote:
Does the OP even bring AA weaponry? If not, you can't complain about not dealing with Flyers.

I don't have flyers and I have no problem with flyers because I have invested in AA units.

What AA units would you bring as an Ork player?

Everyone's saying what good AA is there for Orks?

Uh, Traktor Kannons..... fething terrifyingly strong AA.

Kannons are identical for half the points.

KMKs are solidly stronger.

pismakron wrote:

 Otto Weston wrote:
Does the OP even bring AA weaponry? If not, you can't complain about not dealing with Flyers.

I don't have flyers and I have no problem with flyers because I have invested in AA units.

What AA units would you bring as an Ork player?

Aegis Defence Line


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 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I will say, though, that any stacking negative modifiers get bad, quick, for orks. For example, unless I'm mistaken, orks cannot shoot at raven guard flyers out of 12". -1 to hit for flyer, -1 to hit for raven guard, need a 7+ to hit. Can't be done.

I might be misremembering here but doesn't the corebook say all 1s are failures and all 6s are successes regardless of modifiers?

 Tsol wrote:

I might be misremembering here but doesn't the corebook say all 1s are failures and all 6s are successes regardless of modifiers?

Just 1 is always a failure. 6 isn't always a success.

the_scotsman wrote:

pismakron wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


Orks have several options that can deal with a reasonable amount of flyers. 5 stormravens, yeah that's a skew list, just like any skew list you play to the mission. But I had little trouble downing a pair of stormhawks over the course of a full 2000 point game with a mix of tankbustas, flash gits, a SAG mek, and rokkits from Killa Kanz.

Gretchin based units seem like the most reliable answer because they still get a solid 5+ to hit. I'd go with Kannons as the best option, followed by KMKs or Trakktors. I've been using a load of kannons anyway with my speed freeks, because with 6 of them you can easily crack open a vehicle or two turn 1, or sweep away a good amount of bubblewrap before your assault troops get stuck in. Also Killa Kanz (which should 100% always be armed with rokkits now IMO) are good, solid, reliable TAC anti heavy units. Unit of six with a waaagh banner nob are an excellent crunchy center to any ork horde list.

I don't think there's any good assault answer to them, however. We can't get any all heavy weapon chargers, and the darned things are just too durable to assault with stormboyz.

A kannon will do 0.5 wounds of damage on a stormraven per turn of shooting. To counter two stormravens you need an obscene amount of kannonz, no less than twenty. Six kannonz will bring down a stormraven on your fifth turn of shooting, assuming the kannonz are left unharmed for five turns.

My six kannons are also 114 points, not my whole army. If I'm playing my speed freek list, I am mobile enough that I probably wouldn't bother fighting two stormravens until I'd killed everything else on the ground, and then it'd be a matter of throwing literally everything I've got left on turn 2-3 at one until it dies. If my opponent is starting turn 1 at what is basically a 532+whatever he's got in the flyers point deficit, you can bet I'm going to fight whatever else he has unless he drives one of those planes right up to my army and lets me have at it. And if he does, I've got enough dakka between my tankbustas, buggies, koptas, and kannons, that my two stormboy squads and 2 deffcoptas can finish it off in melee and auto-kill the occupants (And I would only give up tempo to kill the plane if he had positioned it in such a way that I could surround it and auto-kill the occupants after destroying the plane.) If he doesn't, I've got a solid turn where 700-850 points of my opponent's army is sitting in those two footprints up in the air.

Against my grot based list, I can comfortably shoot 1.5 stormravens down from 24" range, but that's with a lot of grot BS rokkits from my grot tanks and killa kanz.

No, orks don't have the means to deal 14 wounds against a 266 point stormraven for 266 points. If you want to alpha strike anything off the board in one turn, you generally have to apply 2-3 times the point value to do it, unless you've got some real specialized stuff like an all plasma unit vs MEQ or an all melta unit against tanks in melta range. Equal points of Kannonz to Stormravens deals a comfortable 6 wounds from long range, but that's averages on D6 damage. in reality, it's going to be a lot swingier - get a lucky high damage roll or two, and you could easily chunk it down to BS4+ or 5+ in one turn. That's pretty solid considering that they're also a good TAC option against any armor, and a decent one against hordes with the frag shell. (this is probably why the winning tournament list we saw recently on blood of kittens took like 10 kannons).

Meanwhile, that stormraven removes about 40 points worth of ork boyz and 20 points of ork vehicles per turn very reliably. If you can kill it in 4-5 turns, you can do it before it makes its points back.

Your six kannonz are 162 points, and no one is talking about alphastriking. In order to kill two stormravens on your first turn you need almost sixty kannonz, not twenty. That is 1600 points of kannon.

As for ignoring his stormravens, that only really works when playing Maelstrom. With Maelstrom missions I think Orks can deal with flyers, and I really have no objection to them.



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 Otto Weston wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 Otto Weston wrote:
Does the OP even bring AA weaponry? If not, you can't complain about not dealing with Flyers.

I don't have flyers and I have no problem with flyers because I have invested in AA units.

What AA units would you bring as an Ork player?

Everyone's saying what good AA is there for Orks?

Uh, Traktor Kannons..... fething terrifyingly strong AA.

They were strong in seventh edition. Now they are garbage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tsol wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 Otto Weston wrote:
Does the OP even bring AA weaponry? If not, you can't complain about not dealing with Flyers.

I don't have flyers and I have no problem with flyers because I have invested in AA units.

What AA units would you bring as an Ork player?

Aegis Defence Line

That may in fact be just what Orks need. Especially with a grot crew. I will need to do some number crunching on this, but thank you for the suggestion.

sorry, in my quick calculation I forgot that you don't just take 2 grot krew and add a Kannon, you need to add a generic "Big Gun" for 8 points as well.

regardless, I don't think you're going to find what you're looking for. If your standard is "something that can kill specifically a Stormraven for less than 266 points in 1 turn" then you won't find anything. The stormraven puts a lot of its points into durability and transport capacity, as evidenced by the fact that I brought up earlier: Even with perfect targets presented for all its weapons every turn it only makes its points back in 4-5 turns vs orks.

In fact, an ADL with a quad gun is worse than a kannon for the points (105 points to deal .666 unsaved wounds vs 27 points to deal .5 unsaved wounds.)

Our best bets for anti-stormraven is the Kustom Mega Kannon (1.3 unsaved wounds on average for 50 points), the regular Kannon (.5 wounds for 27 points), or the Tankbusta (.44 wounds for 17 points with either rokkits or pistols). In terms of points efficiency, the tankbustas and KMKs work out to be identical, but the tankbustas need a trukk, and the KMK is probably easier for your opponent to focus down.

Just like with a Land Raider or any other high toughness transport vehicle, you're generally going to want to either totally ignore it for a turn, or dedicate to shooting it up over several turns, or if your opponent plays aggressively with it and has an expensive unit embarked devote a full 1500-2000 points worth of stuff shooting it to bring it down in a situation where the squad inside is going to get insta-gibbed.

"just ignore it" really is a solution in the vast majority of games, not just maelstrom. The only time it isn't is when playing kill points, which is always an auto lose with a normal army vs an army of just big tough units. Most eternal war and Open War missions feature objectives. Play to them.

Please don't tell me you actually start conversations with strangers using "Hey boss"

No way! I wish I knew a pal that talked that way and had such flavor (like wolverine).

Hey Boss. gonna use it tomorrow on my employees lol

 admironheart wrote:

Please don't tell me you actually start conversations with strangers using "Hey boss"

No way! I wish I knew a pal that talked that way and had such flavor (like wolverine).

Hey Boss. gonna use it tomorrow on my employees lol

I usually start conversations with "Yo man" regardless of context. It's just my relaxed nature to feel welcoming without forcing a professional vibe.

For the first time, I actually get to field my voidravens. Do not take this from me OP.