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 Howscat wrote:
For space marines: Centurion Devastator Squad. Heavy bolters and Hurricane bolters. You will out range them at the beginning of the game and you should have first turn. you will be killing 6 conscripts at 36 inch, 12.5 at 24 inch., and 18.3 at 12 inch. 50 conscripts with a commissar and orders will be doing 0 wounds at 36 in. 1.6 wounds at 24 in. and 3.2 wounds at 12 inch. Utilize the fact that you should have first turn and weapons range. You don't have to worry about cover because of the omniscope, and you can move and shoot heavy weapons. These guys should win the firefight and are capable of killing more than just conscripts if you are facing a different type of army. Or two razorbacks with twin assault cannons. you will be killing 11.5 per turn at 24 inch. 50 with FRFSRF will be doing 1.6 wounds back at 24 inch.

Conscripts can be defeated if you have the correct weapons. You can't win a tournament buy spamming grav and melta anymore. You need to add a dedicated anti infantry element to your army in 8th. This is part of the reason IG are doing so well right now is because they always have dedicated anti infantry firepower due to numbers of shots that in previous editions would have been wasted because of the lack of split fire.

Wow. That's actually pretty reasonable. You there, STOP BEING REASONABLE!

 daedalus wrote:

 Howscat wrote:
For space marines: Centurion Devastator Squad. Heavy bolters and Hurricane bolters. You will out range them at the beginning of the game and you should have first turn. you will be killing 6 conscripts at 36 inch, 12.5 at 24 inch., and 18.3 at 12 inch. 50 conscripts with a commissar and orders will be doing 0 wounds at 36 in. 1.6 wounds at 24 in. and 3.2 wounds at 12 inch. Utilize the fact that you should have first turn and weapons range. You don't have to worry about cover because of the omniscope, and you can move and shoot heavy weapons. These guys should win the firefight and are capable of killing more than just conscripts if you are facing a different type of army. Or two razorbacks with twin assault cannons. you will be killing 11.5 per turn at 24 inch. 50 with FRFSRF will be doing 1.6 wounds back at 24 inch.

Conscripts can be defeated if you have the correct weapons. You can't win a tournament buy spamming grav and melta anymore. You need to add a dedicated anti infantry element to your army in 8th. This is part of the reason IG are doing so well right now is because they always have dedicated anti infantry firepower due to numbers of shots that in previous editions would have been wasted because of the lack of split fire.

Wow. That's actually pretty reasonable. You there, STOP BEING REASONABLE!

Until you look at the pricetag, and realize once again it's some overspending to slowly chip away at a unit. It's amazing how balanced things look when you totally ignore points, the balancing measure of the game, and just assume that as long as some unit of some price cna kill the unit in any time frame, things must be balanced. .

if conscripts cost four points, well he'd have a point. Because then the cost would actually be reasonable. But not right now.

Oh and again, if you wanna argue that conscripts should be that tough... show me any other unit of infantry that tough. I'll wait.

Make conscript blobs fall apart as they take casualties. 40 man reduced to 30? have to roll another d6 on your moral tests (and make them actually take them gw...). Add another at 20.
Represents the low quality of the horse as it loses cohesion.

Since there is no weapon answer for it, go mechanical.

SilverAlien wrote:

And how much does it cost? 220 points before factoring in wargear. That puts a pretty har dlimit on how many you field, and considering it has no ranged weapons besides a piddly 18" assault 4 heavy bolter and all of 3 melee attacks, you are taking it entirely for the aura.

Wait, so you're saying that for 40 points more than conscripts and a commissar, you can a leman russ hull that can create 50+ guys over a game who are arguably as good as conscripts, it comes with a fearless bubble, reroll 1s to hit, and psychic powers? And it has an heavy bolter on it that matches range synergy with the things it creates, which it also buffs?

 ross-128 wrote:
To be honest, if they were going to cost the same as guardsmen I would want them to have BS4+. They can keep their WS5+ and LD4, but they'd at least need BS4+. At that point they'd still be strictly worse than guardsmen on their own, but applying their buff efficiency to BS4+ would be enough to make up their other drawbacks.

With their current stat line, if I had to choose between 4-point conscripts and 4-point guardsmen I'd take the guardsmen every time.

As far as the comparison between guardsmen and space marines, the difference between them is quite small and is entirely accounted for by the fact that a tactical marine is T4/3+, LD7/8, has ATSKNF, has Chapter Tactics, and has an extra weapon that they basically just use for melee. The tactical marine is paying for a good deal more than just its ability to wound T3 models.

After all, let's say hypothetically we made tactical marines just as cheap a source of shooting as conscripts, and we made conscripts just as easy to remove from the board. Would that be fair to the conscripts? Or would the conscripts be screwed because a tactical marine can do everything they do just as well, while also enjoying a bunch of other advantages that they don't pay for?

Yeah. 4 point conscripts would solve the "conscript problem" because 4 points is too much per model when compared to normal guard infantry to justify taking them at all!

Of course, I'm still not convinced that conscript spam is a problem. Point for point comparisons aren't necessarily useful because you have to take the context of the army in question into account. Like it or not, not all units are created equal, nor should they be.

Besides which, the commissar's ignore-morale ability is a bubble, which means if you pushed conscripts up to 4 ppm, you would just see the 50-man squads replaced with 5 10-man infantry squads bereft of special weapons. They would lose the single-unit benefits, but also gain encapsulation of wounds (any overkill thrown against any one squad would be wasted. You don't suffer that with conscripts) and they could maneuver independently of each other. Normal infantry squads also fight and shoot better.

The only disadvantages they have over conscripts are efficiency of orders and resistance to being overrun allowing you to better shield the commissar and commander.

Increasing the cost wouldn't change anything. IG is still going to tarpit you with warm bodies if that's what they need to do in order to win.

IMO, some armies need better anti-infantry firepower now that template weapons that used to be very good at AI fire got nerfed. If any changes should be made, that's it.

 Howscat wrote:
For space marines: Centurion Devastator Squad. Heavy bolters and Hurricane bolters. You will out range them at the beginning of the game and you should have first turn. you will be killing 6 conscripts at 36 inch, 12.5 at 24 inch., and 18.3 at 12 inch. 50 conscripts with a commissar and orders will be doing 0 wounds at 36 in. 1.6 wounds at 24 in. and 3.2 wounds at 12 inch. Utilize the fact that you should have first turn and weapons range. You don't have to worry about cover because of the omniscope, and you can move and shoot heavy weapons. These guys should win the firefight and are capable of killing more than just conscripts if you are facing a different type of army.

They are certainly decent in comparison to some of the options that SM get like whirlwinds, but you can only field 4 Centurions for the same price as 100 conscripts+support staff. They kill 16 conscripts per turn excluding morale losses at 24''. Assuming that all conscripts get to fire back, they kill 1 centurion per turn - even with their initial losses. Of course it is not realistic to assume that all conscripts get to fire back, but then again the AM player almost certainly has other weapons dedicated to killing mid-T targets with 2+ saves.

SilverAlien wrote:


Until you look at the pricetag, and realize once again it's some overspending to slowly chip away at a unit. It's amazing how balanced things look when you totally ignore points, the balancing measure of the game, and just assume that as long as some unit of some price cna kill the unit in any time frame, things must be balanced. .

if conscripts cost four points, well he'd have a point. Because then the cost would actually be reasonable. But not right now.

Oh and again, if you wanna argue that conscripts should be that tough... show me any other unit of infantry that tough. I'll wait.

I mean, there's ultimately no way for me to tell you what you want to hear. Guard are a tarpit. They've been a tarpit since at least 5th edition. It's nothing new. Likewise, it always takes more points to kill a single unit in a single round than the unit is worth. That has also always been the case. Hell, I just fired up army builder to look at 7th edition. Conscripts are 150 points for 50 and have the same statline. Just to emphasize: The only thing that's changed about conscripts, as a self-contained unit, is that you can take them without the platoon.
Back then you could even toss a lord commissar in there and you have basically the same effect as nowadays, at 30 point more then than now. Sure, you killed 33% more of them, but you still couldn't get them to run off the table. The only reason you're hearing about them now is because Infantry Squads lost combined squad, so everyone runs their blobs as Conscripts instead.

As far as points spent to points killed, I mean, Scions are typically considered broken good, and even when you build them to specifically kill MEQ, and then you have them kill MEQ in rapid fire range having suffered zero casualties (which is basically impossible) they still only kill about half their points worth. And I remind you that this is referring to a unit typically considered stupid broken good.

I don't if there should be a unit harder to kill. What I am trying to tell you is that this is no different than it's always been. It just got a little cheaper and more accessible.

SilverAlien wrote:
Or we could acknowledge the issue is most characters aren't effective to nearly the degree commissars and conscripts (negating its singular main disadvantage at a token price) are when they interact, and adjust the point cost. Comissars are fine with almost every other unit, so increasing the price of conscripts is the correct call, as one disadvantage (morale) will never be felt when fielded in a sensible way.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

Just kill the Commissar. It's effective and it's fluffy.

 Howscat wrote:
For space marines: Centurion Devastator Squad. Heavy bolters and Hurricane bolters. You will out range them at the beginning of the game and you should have first turn. you will be killing 6 conscripts at 36 inch, 12.5 at 24 inch., and 18.3 at 12 inch. 50 conscripts with a commissar and orders will be doing 0 wounds at 36 in. 1.6 wounds at 24 in. and 3.2 wounds at 12 inch. Utilize the fact that you should have first turn and weapons range. You don't have to worry about cover because of the omniscope, and you can move and shoot heavy weapons. These guys should win the firefight and are capable of killing more than just conscripts if you are facing a different type of army. Or two razorbacks with twin assault cannons. you will be killing 11.5 per turn at 24 inch. 50 with FRFSRF will be doing 1.6 wounds back at 24 inch.

Conscripts can be defeated if you have the correct weapons. You can't win a tournament buy spamming grav and melta anymore. You need to add a dedicated anti infantry element to your army in 8th. This is part of the reason IG are doing so well right now is because they always have dedicated anti infantry firepower due to numbers of shots that in previous editions would have been wasted because of the lack of split fire.

Are you serious right now, centurion devastator squads, as described, in their base configuration, are 297 points, and move 4" a turn. Assuming you dropped them magically into rapid fire range of conscripts, that's 300 points to do an expected 21 dead conscripts.

That is literally the worst investment of 300 points, assuming they could even make it there, which they couldn't unless you also bought a land raider, the only transport they can ride in, to get them there.

One list in 208 at ETC is using centurion devastator squads, and they're being used with Lascannons and missile launchers.

 daedalus wrote:
I don't if there should be a unit harder to kill. What I am trying to tell you is that this is no different than it's always been. It just got a little cheaper and more accessible.

They got cheaper, and most of the counter measures to them were nerfed hard. Template weapons were nerfed. Their 5+ armor is now useful against most anti infantry weapons. They had a huge number of indirect buffs you keep ignoring. They are so much better than they were previously.

 Arandmoor wrote:
Yeah. 4 point conscripts would solve the "conscript problem" because 4 points is too much per model when compared to normal guard infantry to justify taking them at all!

Of course, I'm still not convinced that conscript spam is a problem. Point for point comparisons aren't necessarily useful because you have to take the context of the army in question into account. Like it or not, not all units are created equal, nor should they be

Increasing the cost wouldn't change anything. IG is still going to tarpit you with warm bodies if that's what they need to do in order to win.

IMO, some armies need better anti-infantry firepower now that template weapons that used to be very good at AI fire got nerfed. If any changes should be made, that's it.

Yes it would. Do you know why? Because the current anti infantry options are priced fairly for literally every other unit in the game. Every. Single. One. That's why this problem only happens with guard. Not orks, not tyranids, not chaos even chaos. Just Guard. It's exclusively a guard problem, because everything else in the game is costed appropriately for the infantry units. It is really just you guys that are the problem.

i mena, we could add new better ways of killing infatry, then buff every other infatry unit to be costed appriately for the new effective method. That's the same thing though. because everyone else is on the same playing field.

 Aesthete wrote:
I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

Just kill the Commissar. It's effective and it's fluffy.

Adding a huge number of units to every other army to correct a problem that is almost entirely contained to a single army with one or two units is not a good solution. Every other army is working more or less correctly, with snipers being a reasonable but not required choice. Guard are the problem.

SilverAlien wrote:
Adding a huge number of units to every other army to correct a problem that is almost entirely contained to a single army with one or two units is not a good solution. Every other army is working more or less correctly, with snipers being a reasonable but not required choice. Guard are the problem.

You're the one proposing "adding a huge number of units to every other army."

All I'm saying is if the Commissar is causing you pain then kill the Commissar. Build your list with a strategy in mind against the kind of enemies you may face. If your enemy has annoying buffing characters, have a plan for that. Use tactics during the actual game to execute on that strategy.

SilverAlien wrote:

They got cheaper, and most of the counter measures to them were nerfed hard. Template weapons were nerfed. Their 5+ armor is now useful against most anti infantry weapons. They had a huge number of indirect buffs you keep ignoring. They are so much better than they were previously.

I'm not ignoring those buffs. I'm saying that they didn't change specifically. And a lot of those things are situational too. 5+ armor could have been 5+ cover in a lot of situations. The commissar was arguably even harder to kill. Yeah, templates went away. Yeah, so did blasts. Who was letting you get more than 3-4 things with a large blast to begin with anyway?

I dunno man. The one time I saw conscripts used in a game in 8th, the Eldar player basically just shot them to death. Yeah, they absorbed more bullets than they should have required. They also did about as much damage as you would expect a bunch of BS 5+ S3 guys to cause.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ooh, crap. I just had a thought:

Have you tried just killing the commissar?

not every army has snipers

 daedalus wrote:
As far as points spent to points killed, I mean, Scions are typically considered broken good, and even when you build them to specifically kill MEQ, and then you have them kill MEQ in rapid fire range having suffered zero casualties (which is basically impossible) they still only kill about half their points worth. And I remind you that this is referring to a unit typically considered stupid broken good.

Scions are decent at killing MEQ, but what you really want to be doing with them is targeting things with 2+ wounds. A scion command squad with plasma guns kills almost twice their own value in points worth of terminators the turn that they drop. You get similar results against most tanks.

SilverAlien wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
That is a good point about the Tervigon. It could pretty much be considered the 'gaunt equivalent of a commissar. It makes them fearless (real fearless, which is better than the "discount fearless" a commissar grants), it's a beefy MC in its own right, and it allows the gaunts to basically pretend they're necrons, any you kill are likely to come back.

And how much does it cost? 220 points before factoring in wargear. That puts a pretty har dlimit on how many you field, and considering it has no ranged weapons besides a piddly 18" assault 4 heavy bolter and all of 3 melee attacks, you are taking it entirely for the aura.

The HQ does almost nothing besides buff and cost more than a squad of conscripts with two HQs buffing it, and you are like "see this proves conscripts aren't OP!" Pricing is everything guys, and Tyranids actually have to pay reasonable points for the advantages they get.

If a commissar or a commander could also poop out 10 conscripts per turn, I would hope they cost 220 points before wargear. And sure it's pretty much just there for the aura, but you have to admit it's a pretty powerful aura. Also there's the fact that the Tervigon's aura supports every single nid unit in it's area at a much larger range than the commissar's. A commissar's 6" morale aura is 113 square inches. Meanwhile a Tervigon's 12" synapse aura covers 452 square inches. It covers a slightly larger area.

SilverAlien wrote:

 Arandmoor wrote:
Gaunts have advantages over boyz and conscripts. First, both boyz and gaunts can move-advance-shoot-and-assault.

No they can't. They cannot advance and charge in the same turn. They can shoot and charge, but every unit can do that. They cna advance and shoot at a penalty to the hit roll, but that partially compensates for the reduced range on their weapons (12 and 18 comapred to 24 for conscripts).

I'm at work, don't have my books in front of me, and am largely going off of memory. So mistakes will be made.

I might be thinking of genestealers or termagaunts. I know that at least one (if not both) of them can move-advance-charge, but neither of them get guns.

Genestealers are also a tarpit unit. Big difference being that they won't just tie you down. They'll straight-up murder you and step over your corpse to chase down your friends.

If they cannot charge after advancing, that still means gaunts can move 8, advance 1-6 (average 3), and then shoot 12 for a 23" kill-radius. Conscripts are significantly slower than gaunts.

SilverAlien wrote:

 Howscat wrote:
For space marines: Centurion Devastator Squad. Heavy bolters and Hurricane bolters. You will out range them at the beginning of the game and you should have first turn. you will be killing 6 conscripts at 36 inch, 12.5 at 24 inch., and 18.3 at 12 inch. 50 conscripts with a commissar and orders will be doing 0 wounds at 36 in. 1.6 wounds at 24 in. and 3.2 wounds at 12 inch. Utilize the fact that you should have first turn and weapons range. You don't have to worry about cover because of the omniscope, and you can move and shoot heavy weapons. These guys should win the firefight and are capable of killing more than just conscripts if you are facing a different type of army. Or two razorbacks with twin assault cannons. you will be killing 11.5 per turn at 24 inch. 50 with FRFSRF will be doing 1.6 wounds back at 24 inch.

Conscripts can be defeated if you have the correct weapons. You can't win a tournament buy spamming grav and melta anymore. You need to add a dedicated anti infantry element to your army in 8th. This is part of the reason IG are doing so well right now is because they always have dedicated anti infantry firepower due to numbers of shots that in previous editions would have been wasted because of the lack of split fire.

Okay, now try listing a few units that don't pay a huge point increase over the conscripts to slowly chip away at them over multiple turns, maybe killing them near the final turn.

Yes they can die, they just take way more firepower than their price tag justifies. More than any other unit of a similar cost. If you disagree, find me any infantry unit that is, for its price, as tough as conscripts. I'll wait.

For basic durability and ability to take wounds? You are correct. Conscripts are absolutely second to none.

However, they're absolutely bottom of the barrel for killing ability. Even being propped up by orders.

Gaunts can actually shoot and hit in CC, and have an awesome reinforcement mechanic on par with Necrons RP until you kill their pet HQ unit.

Orks will chop you to death. The math has been done, and a full mob of boyz is capable of not just tarpitting, but can actually kill Imperial Knights if they all get into CC with it rather than getting strung out.

Wytches are expensive by comparison, but don't just ignore your power weapons, they are also actually capable of pinning you in CC unless you win a roll-off to withdraw. Also, they get a fair amount of customization from combat drugs, and get significantly more powerful as the game goes on (which makes their ability to actually lock units into CC very dangerous as you cannot shoot them while they're in CC unless you're shooting pistols).

Storm Guardians have probably the smallest squad size of the tarpit units, but with Drain and/or enhance on their side, they more than make up for it. Also, they're capable of dishing out a stunning amount of damage when supported by doom as they'll get to reroll pretty much everything. While they take a LOT more support than conscripts, those support units are not married to the storm guardians like the commissar and commander tend to be, and are very flexible and valuable when supporting almost every unit in the eldar army.

Necron scarabs can be endlessly reinforced as long as the necron player doesn't mortal wound his spyders off of the table.

Cultists kind of suck unless you devote an aura or two to backing them up, but why would you when you could devote them to supporting Khorne Berzerkers? Though, the thought of 30 cultists with pistols and brutal weapons tossing out 60 attacks in CC and hitting on a 3+ while rerolling misses is a terrifying thought (prescience + a reroll aura from the chaplin...I'm assuming they can work together)

Then there's Khorne Berzerkers who, while not technically a tarpit unit, are just pants-s***ingly terrifying.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
not every army has snipers

Perhaps there are alternatives to snipers? How do those armies deal with annoying buffing characters that aren't Commissars?

 Marmatag wrote:

 Howscat wrote:
For space marines: Centurion Devastator Squad. Heavy bolters and Hurricane bolters. You will out range them at the beginning of the game and you should have first turn. you will be killing 6 conscripts at 36 inch, 12.5 at 24 inch., and 18.3 at 12 inch. 50 conscripts with a commissar and orders will be doing 0 wounds at 36 in. 1.6 wounds at 24 in. and 3.2 wounds at 12 inch. Utilize the fact that you should have first turn and weapons range. You don't have to worry about cover because of the omniscope, and you can move and shoot heavy weapons. These guys should win the firefight and are capable of killing more than just conscripts if you are facing a different type of army. Or two razorbacks with twin assault cannons. you will be killing 11.5 per turn at 24 inch. 50 with FRFSRF will be doing 1.6 wounds back at 24 inch.

Conscripts can be defeated if you have the correct weapons. You can't win a tournament buy spamming grav and melta anymore. You need to add a dedicated anti infantry element to your army in 8th. This is part of the reason IG are doing so well right now is because they always have dedicated anti infantry firepower due to numbers of shots that in previous editions would have been wasted because of the lack of split fire.

Are you serious right now, centurion devastator squads, as described, in their base configuration, are 297 points, and move 4" a turn. Assuming you dropped them magically into rapid fire range of conscripts, that's 300 points to do an expected 21 dead conscripts.

That is literally the worst investment of 300 points, assuming they could even make it there, which they couldn't unless you also bought a land raider, the only transport they can ride in, to get them there.

One list in 208 at ETC is using centurion devastator squads, and they're being used with Lascannons and missile launchers.

Um...he specifically said starting at range, where the Conscripts could literally do nothing to hurt the Centurions...and if the Conscripts don't try to rush them, they can just shoot at something else that CAN fight back. Best solution to the tar pit is to either overwhelm it right from the get go (or just reduce them to the point that they really cannot or will not have much of an effect on the game), ignore it realizing that they would need to advance to within 12 inches of you with an officer to do much damage, or tarpit it yourself with something.

Plus, with all the new codices coming out already things may shuffle around quickly. For example, we already know that Raven Guard hand out penalties for those shooting them at range, which drops Conscripts shooting even further. Depending on what Chapter Tactics, Legion Traits, Regimental Doctrines, Sept whatevers, and whatever unique stratagems each faction gets, the entire meta may shift within a couple of months.

 Aesthete wrote:
All I'm saying is if the Commissar is causing you pain then kill the Commissar. Build your list with a strategy in mind against the kind of enemies you may face. If your enemy has annoying buffing characters, have a plan for that. Use tactics during the actual game to execute on that strategy.

Killing the commissar does somewhat increase the efficiency of other weapons vs the conscripts. SM scouts with snipers and camo cloaks will cost you 18 pts per scout. You need about 7-8 shots on avg in order to remove a commissar, so generally 2 turns of fire with 72 pts of snipers. With him gone you essentially double the efficiency of other weapons against those conscripts, which looks good on paper but doesn't actually translate into that much higher efficiency given the cost of the snipers.

 Aesthete wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
not every army has snipers

Perhaps there are alternatives to snipers? How do those armies deal with annoying buffing characters that aren't Commissars?

They either don't, or the army can't bubble wrap due to lack of super cheap expendable bodies like conscripts and you can find ways to charge/get a shot off. Which you aren't doing with a commissar until the conscripts are dead.... defeating the point.

Honestly though, you don't. Because guard is the only army that really. requires you to pick off characters. If you play chaos, you just ignore it. Because it might be helpful, but you can still fight on a level playing field without killing them. You simply can't do this with guard.

 Arandmoor wrote:
For basic durability and ability to take wounds? You are correct. Conscripts are absolutely second to none.

Okay, now find me one that can do it as well as conscripts could at 4 points. I'll wait more.

Holding ground is veyr important with how objectives work. If no other army can do it for a similar point cost, even if they have troops whose entire job is to do that, then their is a major problem.

You aren't the only army who is supposed to have this sort of unit, yet no other army has one comparable to conscripts. That's a balance issue.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
not every army has snipers

What armies don't?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Did anyone here ever have to deal with a 5th edition blob?

 daedalus wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
not every army has snipers

What armies don't?

Any flavor of Chaos Space Marine, Demons, Orks, and all Eldar except craftworld eldar I believe(but with ynnari and keywords being what they are the last is a bit debatable).

Also, to head this off, psychic powers don't compensate, one psychic power per turn isn't compensation.

Edit: I forgot about tyranids and GSC, they do not either to my knowledge.

 daedalus wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
not every army has snipers

What armies don't?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Did anyone here ever have to deal with a 5th edition blob?

Of course we did, where AP5 was whined about because it ignored your armor if not in cover.

 Aesthete wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
not every army has snipers

Perhaps there are alternatives to snipers? How do those armies deal with annoying buffing characters that aren't Commissars?

To my knowledge, there are like 3 armies that don't have snipers of some kind: Tyranids, Genestealer Cults, and Orks. Tau Empire have snipers, but they're overpriced (IMO) and don't deal mortal wounds.

Tyranids have a number of options to deal with commissars and commanders, provided they're not embedded inside the conscript blob. If they're buried it shouldn't matter too much as Tyranids blob better than IG do. Sure it will take more points in nid units to kill the conscripts, but a healthy nid army should be able to kill them in one round with close to zero casualties before moving on and killing something else.

Genestealer Cults are simply not an army I have enough familiarity with to suggest counters off to top of my head without my books.

Orks...

If you have problems with conscripts as orks I honestly don't know what to tell you. One ork boy costs twice as much as a conscript, and is 4 times as killy. The solution here should be obvious and simple: They have a commissar? Who cares?

 Arandmoor wrote:
If they're buried it shouldn't matter too much as Tyranids blob better than IG do.

No they don't. They literally just don't. If Guard blobs were reduced to the level of tyranid blobs we'd all shut up about it. Conscripts being put to 4 point still leaves guard with better blobs than nids.

What on earth makes you think otherwise?

Those are also assault armies. Funny thing about the character targeting immunity... it doesn't apply to assault. If you charge and pull the commissar into a melee, you can punch him.

Since he's a separate unit from the conscripts, you can allocate those melee attacks onto him on purpose and your opponent won't be able to use wound allocation shenanigans to deflect them. A commissar can die very fast in melee.

SilverAlien wrote:
Okay, now find me one that can do it as well as conscripts could at 4 points. I'll wait more.

Renegade and Heretic Mutant Rabble? They're 4 points each with a max unit size of 50. Take an Enforcer to lose D3 instead of any to morale and you have a similar unit as Conscripts, except that Mutant Rabble can sometimes get +1T, or +1A on the charge, or +2 to their Movement. They could also die in that same dice roll. The kicker is if you roll a 3 you get both the +1 attack on the charge and +2 movement, making them a great moving barrier for your HQs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SilverAlien wrote:
Any flavor of Chaos Space Marine

Chaos has access to sniper rifler Maraders. Any Chaos keyword army does, Deamon and Marine.

 ross-128 wrote:
Those are also assault armies. Funny thing about the character targeting immunity... it doesn't apply to assault. If you charge and pull the commissar into a melee, you can punch him.

Since he's a separate unit from the conscripts, you can allocate those melee attacks onto him on purpose and your opponent won't be able to use wound allocation shenanigans to deflect them. A commissar can die very fast in melee.

If the AM player places his commissar anywhere near melee range. But that won't happen.

 Arandmoor wrote:

 Aesthete wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
not every army has snipers

Perhaps there are alternatives to snipers? How do those armies deal with annoying buffing characters that aren't Commissars?

To my knowledge, there are like 3 armies that don't have snipers of some kind: Tyranids, Genestealer Cults, and Orks. Tau Empire have snipers, but they're overpriced (IMO) and don't deal mortal wounds.

Tyranids have a number of options to deal with commissars and commanders, provided they're not embedded inside the conscript blob. If they're buried it shouldn't matter too much as Tyranids blob better than IG do. Sure it will take more points in nid units to kill the conscripts, but a healthy nid army should be able to kill them in one round with close to zero casualties before moving on and killing something else.

Genestealer Cults are simply not an army I have enough familiarity with to suggest counters off to top of my head without my books.

Orks...

If you have problems with conscripts as orks I honestly don't know what to tell you. One ork boy costs twice as much as a conscript, and is 4 times as killy. The solution here should be obvious and simple: They have a commissar? Who cares?

All Imperial forces can take plenty of snipers. All Chaos and Eldar can too. GSC can take guard detachments, and therefore Snipers. I think it is just Orks and Nids?

Those two razorbacks are 200pts. 50 Conscripts+ Commissar+Platoon Commander are 201 points.

You can counter conscripts with your own conscripts the same way you can counter a super heavy with your own super heavy, but you don't do that do you? You kill that imperial knight buy shooting your entire army at it for 1-2 turns or ignoring it and killing everything else. Same thing with conscripts. When your opponent has 150-200 conscripts on the field you can dedicate everything for 1-2 turns to killing them or you kill his other units and then kill them at the end. You are better off killing his other units because of how low the offensive power is of the conscripts.

I was running Militarum Tempestus with IG allies in the ITC in 7th ed. Part of my force was a 50 man conscript blob with a commissar. The conscripts where only in my are to literally die to my opponent wasting his fire power on them while the scions landed on his flank/rear to dismantle his army. Conscripts have always been good at tar pitting. If my opponent was intelligent he would ignore them and go after my scions/artillery and at the end of my game all I would have on the table was a few conscript sitting on a objective.

In 8th edition I decided I would run a pure Militarum Tempestus army. While they are strong they lack in several aspects. Scions are not good at killing hoards or super heavies. Scions shine at killing MEQ and light tanks/monsters. The worst opponent I could face would be conscript spam with baneblades in the backfield. My best options are to hide until turn three and then land on the objectives and hope he cant blast my off them at the end of the game or lure his conscripts away from his super heavies and land behind them putting everything I have into the super heavies killing them and then slowly wearing down the conscripts. In both cases I ignore the conscripts until the end. Luckily I have not faced this army yet but I have faced something similar. Trying to kill 150 ork boyz with kustum force fields is hard with a army that depends on ap rends and close range firepower.

 andysonic1 wrote:
Renegade and Heretic Mutant Rabble? They're 4 points each with a max unit size of 50. Take an Enforcer to lose D3 instead of any to morale and you have a similar unit as Conscripts, except that Mutant Rabble can sometimes get +1T, or +1A on the charge, or +2 to their Movement. They could also die in that same dice roll. The kicker is if you roll a 3 you get both the +1 attack on the charge and +2 movement, making them a great moving barrier for your HQs.

Chaos has access to sniper rifler Maraders. Any Chaos keyword army does, Deamon and Marine.

Oh yeah, the FAQ has probably dropped by now and that army might actually be usable. The enforcers didn't use to have the character keyword. However... mutant rabble still only have a 6+ and enforcers aren't as good. I'll say no orders but getting covenants is more or less a wash, cheaper but not as good generally. So... even at 4 points conscripts are generally better at just holding ground.

Eh... if we count that as being an option, than every imperial army has their choice of 5-6 different snipers, most of them better than marauders. But it's something at least.

 ross-128 wrote:
Those are also assault armies. Funny thing about the character targeting immunity... it doesn't apply to assault. If you charge and pull the commissar into a melee, you can punch him.

Since he's a separate unit from the conscripts, you can allocate those melee attacks onto him on purpose and your opponent won't be able to use wound allocation shenanigans to deflect them. A commissar can die very fast in melee.

Well... I was assuming the IG player wasn't a brain dead lemming and knew how to keep units safe. Should I also assume he doesn't bother to move towards the objectives because he has no idea how to play?