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How would you prefer games workshop to tone down conscripts?
Increase conscript point cost
Nerf conscript abilities to take orders
Commissars LD powers less effective for conscripts
Limit list building to one conscript squad per 2 infantry squads
Conscript squad size lowered
Conscripts do not need to be toned down
Lower armour save to 6+

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Made in us
Thunderhawk Pilot Dropping From Orbit




AZ

First flyers now conscripts.... at the rate we are going soon all units are going to have the same stats and same abilities.

Look out Orks and Nids people are going to go for you guys next!!!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/26 04:07:32




 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Colonel Cross wrote:
Even the drafted guardsmen receive training. Whenever they travel through the warp, they are training that entire time which is months or even years. Planets have imperial guard tithes. That's just how they fill regiments. Some are volunteers, but regardless, they receive the full amount of training required to become a guardsman.

The conscripts are basically emergency draftees. They only have the most basic of training and then are rushed off to the front.


So basically the planetary defense forces and adhoc militias? Huh, alright.
   
Made in us
Thunderhawk Pilot Dropping From Orbit




AZ

Let's stop complaining... this complaining is going a little to far. Fliers, conscripts, next Orks and Nids.

Leave them be, stop complaining and actually play with some tactics so you can take them out. I've played against fliers and conscripts and never thought they were omg auto win if you Field them... figure it out. It's a war game....

All this complaining reminds me of the political correct nonsense in the states, if it hurts my feelings and offends me you can't say or do it...



 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




usmcmidn wrote:
Let's stop complaining... this complaining is going a little to far. Fliers, conscripts, next Orks and Nids.

Leave them be, stop complaining and actually play with some tactics so you can take them out. I've played against fliers and conscripts and never thought they were omg auto win if you Field them... figure it out. It's a war game....

All this complaining reminds me of the political correct nonsense in the states, if it hurts my feelings and offends me you can't say or do it...


.... I am blown away by the sheer lack of self awareness in this analogy. You are telling people to stop complaining because it bothers you ... then you say complaining reminds you of political correctness, which you think is bad and define as people demanding others not say things that hurt their feelings or offend them. Congratulations, that's hilariously hypocritical.

You should also realize that "political correctness" (also known as basic politeness for people who've undergone rudimentary socialization) is the only reason I'm even being even this nice about this?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/07/26 04:39:37


 
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight





CO

 Klowny wrote:
As necrons I find it really, really hard to deal with conscripts. Chaff screens shouldn't be good enough that they're a near auto take in any list.

FRFSRF is absolutely brutal. 150 points for 50 dudes with 4 shots each? That's a ridiculous amount of shots vs 240 points worth of warriors with 40 shots, 50 scripts wins literally every single time in a firefight. Even overwatch is brutal enough for my units to seriously consider not charging them. And then what, we charge, kill a couple, they execute another then fall back and shoot again because of an order at full strenght, then let me soak another round of overwatch?

If big squads of zerkers and a knight are having problems clearing 1 blob.... there's not much hope for other armies. Now imagine seeing 150 conscripts on the board, for 450 points. Literally cheaper than 40 warriors, more firepower, more durable, and able to shoot after falling back?

Take away their orders, or make them lose 4-6 to morale. As is there is very little counterplay to them.



Why are you worrying about something that you are incredibly unlikely to ever see on the table? Who wants to buy, build, and paint 150 models, let alone JUST conscripts in addition to everything else the guard players use? Next, sure, 50 conscripts are only 150 points. However, as you are describing your encounters with them, they require at least a platoon commander AND a commissar. Which adds another 51 points, minimum to this. And HOW are your warriors not chewing through conscripts? You hit and wound easier AND have an AP of 1, giving them saves of only a 6+. So tell me, how are these conscripts rolling you?

5k Imperial Guard
2k Ad Mech 
   
Made in us
Angelic Adepta Sororitas




i think we should wait till the guard codex drops before serving the whine and cheese.
   
Made in ca
Heroic Senior Officer





Krieg! What a hole...

SilverAlien wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
I'd say drop the Conscript/Guardsman distinction all together. Delete "Conscripts" as a separate unit entry, then let regular Guard squads go up to 20-30 models so there's still a point to Commissars.


Huh, now that's an interesting idea. It also made me realize I don't really know what conscripts are supposed to represent, fluff wise. Aren't most guardsman conscripts or otherwise forcefully drawn in? From what I understand, volunteer guard armies aren't really a thing, most worlds have some version of the draft from the fluff I've read. Are they representing penal legions, or something similar?


Most world have to draft their Guardsmen, yes, but they usually send the best and most veteran members of their PDF, who are then trained furthermore in warp transit. Some planets ship out regiments with combat experience, like the Cadian shock, or Krieg, who send their ''worthy'' regiments to fight agaisnt the rejects, and then ship them offworld.

Member of 40k Montreal There is only war in Montreal
Primarchs are a mistake
DKoK Blog:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/419263.page Have a look, I guarantee you will not see greyer armies, EVER! Now with at least 4 shades of grey

Savageconvoy wrote:
Snookie gives birth to Heavy Gun drone squad. Someone says they are overpowered. World ends.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Gig Harbor, WA

 Klowny wrote:
As necrons I find it really, really hard to deal with conscripts. Chaff screens shouldn't be good enough that they're a near auto take in any list.

FRFSRF is absolutely brutal. 150 points for 50 dudes with 4 shots each? That's a ridiculous amount of shots vs 240 points worth of warriors with 40 shots, 50 scripts wins literally every single time in a firefight. Even overwatch is brutal enough for my units to seriously consider not charging them. And then what, we charge, kill a couple, they execute another then fall back and shoot again because of an order at full strenght, then let me soak another round of overwatch?

If big squads of zerkers and a knight are having problems clearing 1 blob.... there's not much hope for other armies. Now imagine seeing 150 conscripts on the board, for 450 points. Literally cheaper than 40 warriors, more firepower, more durable, and able to shoot after falling back?

Take away their orders, or make them lose 4-6 to morale. As is there is very little counterplay to them.



Have you actually played against them? They only put out 4 shots when you're within 12" of them. And they do it at BS5+ with a S3 Ap0 weapon. The only thing they really offer is order efficiency. If it wasn't for that, they'd be worse point for point than normal guardsmen. Either you spread them out so that they can bubble wrap, or you concentrate them so they can shoot. You can't do both. Any high shot low str weapon is going to shred conscripts. The real threat is the heavy weapons behind them, and if they're bubble wrapping those they're not concentrated enough to shoot you.

SilverAlien wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
I'd say drop the Conscript/Guardsman distinction all together. Delete "Conscripts" as a separate unit entry, then let regular Guard squads go up to 20-30 models so there's still a point to Commissars.


Huh, now that's an interesting idea. It also made me realize I don't really know what conscripts are supposed to represent, fluff wise. Aren't most guardsman conscripts or otherwise forcefully drawn in? From what I understand, volunteer guard armies aren't really a thing, most worlds have some version of the draft from the fluff I've read. Are they representing penal legions, or something similar?


Fluff varies. Plenty of fluff portrays all real IG as well trained veteran troops. They're the guys your planet sends to go fight, many of them are volunteers who join up for the grand adventure. Sure you're not likely ever coming "home," but instead you're likely to settle some world when you muster out. Not all the fluff portrays them as grim dark suicide waves. Regiments go from campaign to campaign, some get reinforcements, others just get combined.

When you consider that a hive world has billions of people on it, the few million they might muster at a guard founding could easily be handled by volunteers. There's going to be people who want out, even if its just to get steady meals and a place to sleep. When you throw in the religious fervor of fighting for your Emperor, there's plenty of fluff options to have serious detachments of IG out there. GW plays up the suicide wave grimdark stuff a lot more than they used to. I prefer the Caiphas Cain or Eisenhorn version of 40k, where sure everything is dark but there's still plenty of hope out there on an individual level.

In that line, conscripts represent more the PDF who are there to support the professional army. They're the guys who train and practice but haven't had a real fight in generations.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/26 05:50:30


 
   
Made in au
Battle-tested Knight Castellan Pilot





Perth

Spoiler:
 argonak wrote:
 Klowny wrote:
As necrons I find it really, really hard to deal with conscripts. Chaff screens shouldn't be good enough that they're a near auto take in any list.

FRFSRF is absolutely brutal. 150 points for 50 dudes with 4 shots each? That's a ridiculous amount of shots vs 240 points worth of warriors with 40 shots, 50 scripts wins literally every single time in a firefight. Even overwatch is brutal enough for my units to seriously consider not charging them. And then what, we charge, kill a couple, they execute another then fall back and shoot again because of an order at full strenght, then let me soak another round of overwatch?

If big squads of zerkers and a knight are having problems clearing 1 blob.... there's not much hope for other armies. Now imagine seeing 150 conscripts on the board, for 450 points. Literally cheaper than 40 warriors, more firepower, more durable, and able to shoot after falling back?

Take away their orders, or make them lose 4-6 to morale. As is there is very little counterplay to them.



Have you actually played against them? They only put out 4 shots when you're within 12" of them. And they do it at BS5+ with a S3 Ap0 weapon. The only thing they really offer is order efficiency. If it wasn't for that, they'd be worse point for point than normal guardsmen. Either you spread them out so that they can bubble wrap, or you concentrate them so they can shoot. You can't do both. Any high shot low str weapon is going to shred conscripts. The real threat is the heavy weapons behind them, and if they're bubble wrapping those they're not concentrated enough to shoot you.

SilverAlien wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
I'd say drop the Conscript/Guardsman distinction all together. Delete "Conscripts" as a separate unit entry, then let regular Guard squads go up to 20-30 models so there's still a point to Commissars.


Huh, now that's an interesting idea. It also made me realize I don't really know what conscripts are supposed to represent, fluff wise. Aren't most guardsman conscripts or otherwise forcefully drawn in? From what I understand, volunteer guard armies aren't really a thing, most worlds have some version of the draft from the fluff I've read. Are they representing penal legions, or something similar?


Fluff varies. Plenty of fluff portrays all real IG as well trained veteran troops. They're the guys your planet sends to go fight, many of them are volunteers who join up for the grand adventure. Sure you're not likely ever coming "home," but instead you're likely to settle some world when you muster out. Not all the fluff portrays them as grim dark suicide waves. Regiments go from campaign to campaign, some get reinforcements, others just get combined.

When you consider that a hive world has billions of people on it, the few million they might muster at a guard founding could easily be handled by volunteers. There's going to be people who want out, even if its just to get steady meals and a place to sleep. When you throw in the religious fervor of fighting for your Emperor, there's plenty of fluff options to have serious detachments of IG out there. GW plays up the suicide wave grimdark stuff a lot more than they used to. I prefer the Caiphas Cain or Eisenhorn version of 40k, where sure everything is dark but there's still plenty of hope out there on an individual level.

In that line, conscripts represent more the PDF who are there to support the professional army. They're the guys who train and practice but haven't had a real fight in generations.


Yea they're my main opponent. I see 150 conscripts all the time, he brings that many because they are very strong. Especially since my vehicles can pop 2-3 of his a turn, so he focuses on his horde.

I've unloaded 40 warriors into 50 conscripts after GI and didn't come close to wiping the squad, and then them and the other 50 FRFSRF'd, and well..... bye bye warriors

12,000
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Drop the max unit size to 30 *and* make them unlock with every two guard squads.
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

IHMO they're ok. Scions and their nasty discount plasmas should be toned down.

 
   
Made in nl
Dakka Veteran




Stockholm

 Peregrine wrote:
Change point cost to 2 points per model. Problem solved.


I like how you're thinking.

IMHO, I think reducing their damage output would be fine. Which basically means reducing the impact of orders on them, perhaps altogether.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/26 11:16:23


~5000 points of IG and DKoK

I'm awful at reading private messages, so just reply to the threads I'm visiting.  
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




People have been math-hammering out why conscripts are so good and wracking their brains trying to figure out how to tone them down but the reasons they're so good are not something you can roll back - the reason they're so good is that a.) templates were removed, instantly making horde units viable and change to failed morale checks which remove models instead of causing units to actually move back. Templates is easy - with templates these conscript blobs are gone because your flamer are hitting and removing way more models, as are all your blast weapons.

The morale thing is what has done it though. In a system where units actually move back and leave the table you can have the commissars do their thing and hold the unit on place, at the cost of battleshock taking its toll. Being immune to running away makes sense when units actually run away. You can modify the failed morale behaviour of a unit to instead stand it's ground and b struck by battleshock instead. This would mean conscripts that take a charge to the face by strong CC units would take extra wounds beyond what they already received, but would hold the unit in place another round. But GW changed morale behaviour to be straight up Battleshock, so they had no choice but to convert the commissars ability to hold a unit in place with their ability to stop them taking further casualties.

For solutions you're left with either targeting the thing that makes them strongest (orders), where you either have to remove them from the unit all-together or force leadership checks contrary to every other unit in the army. Or you make it easier to counter-play the linchpin in the unit - the commissar. Reasonable levels of sniper coverage can remove commissars easily but some armies don't have access to snipers. If every codex included reasonable sniper options then commissars become much more risky to play and conscripts can be swept aside.

Without the ability to fundamentally re-write the rules for a set that is only months old you have no option but to target the way either the unit/army in question plays or the way the problem can be countered by others. No tactic is innately OP, it's how many (or lack there-of) counters they have determine if they're OP or not.
   
Made in de
Witch Hunter in the Shadows



Aachen

I fail to see what orders actually DO to make conscripts too good. More Lasgun shots?

I always assumed that their durability was the issue, and the only thing that makes them too durable are commissars. Give them a rule that lets the commissar kill 1 conscript, but instead of having ALL the conscripts stay on the field just reduce the number by e.g. D6 or 2D6 or 10 or 5, whatever makes sense.
so if you kill 20 and your morale test is a 3, instead of removing 19 you'd remove 18-D6 or 18-2D6 or 18-10 or 18-5.

or go crazy and let the 18 guys roll a D6 each, on a 4+ they get to stay.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 Elbows wrote:
Open and shut, conscripts shouldn't be able to use orders. Easy.

Couldn't agree more.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Thunderhawk Pilot Dropping From Orbit




AZ

SilverAlien wrote:
usmcmidn wrote:
Let's stop complaining... this complaining is going a little to far. Fliers, conscripts, next Orks and Nids.

Leave them be, stop complaining and actually play with some tactics so you can take them out. I've played against fliers and conscripts and never thought they were omg auto win if you Field them... figure it out. It's a war game....

All this complaining reminds me of the political correct nonsense in the states, if it hurts my feelings and offends me you can't say or do it...


You should also realize that "political correctness" (also known as basic politeness for people who've undergone rudimentary socialization) is the only reason I'm even being even this nice about this?


So what you are saying if we weren't in a formal and civilized setting, you would not be nice and become violent? Thank you for proving my point.

Anyway, getting back on topic, we should wait until the codex and FAQ. I for one am going to play and enjoy myself no matter what. Losing is a part of the game. If a unit troubles me, I'll learn from mistakes. I think if we do continue down this road we will see other units being altered and this trend won't stop.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/26 14:04:49




 
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

 DoomMouse wrote:

1) Conscripts become 4pts each (and possibly commanders or commissars could get a point increase too if deemed fair)
2) Conscripts can't take orders (or require a 4+ to pass orders or similar)
3) Commissars 'summary execution' rule doesn't work as well with conscripts (say it halves the number of casualties taken, or they lose D6 casualties instead of just the 1)
4) 1 Conscript squad can only be taken per two infantry squads in your army (or some similar army-structure approach to limiting them)
5) Conscript squad size lowered (say to 20 models or 30 models)
6) Lower their armour save to 6+


1) No. I think this will cause too many issues in terms of pushing up the price of other IG Infantry that isn't currently OP.

2) I'd be fine with Conscripts having a chance to fail orders.

3) No. This defeats the whole purpose of both conscripts and commissars. What's more, most of the proposed changes to commissars seem almost designed to screw over other IG infantry, whilst leaving Conscripts virtually unscathed.

4) I like this one.

5) No objections.

6) Mechanically, i'd be fine with this one. However, given that conscripts use the same models as IG infantry, it would be a bit odd for them to have different armour.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I'd say drop the Conscript/Guardsman distinction all together. Delete "Conscripts" as a separate unit entry, then let regular Guard squads go up to 20-30 models so there's still a point to Commissars.


I think that's a great idea.

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in gb
Huge Hierodule






Nottingham (yay!)

 MarsNZ wrote:
 GI_Redshirt wrote:
You want them to be able to receive orders? Then they need to shoot up in price, being only a point or two less than a regular guardsman.


Why enter a discussion without first checking up on a few of the basics? Conscripts are already 1ppm less than guardsmen.

The argument that conscripts are newbies and therefore unable to be ordered is a pretty shakey one. Their inexperience is already reflected in their stat line. Any idiot can do what they're told.


Any idiot can do what they're told, but taking a few dozen labourers, clerks & students, giving them a month or two training, then telling them to organise into a firing line - when they're surrounded by purple trees with teeth, and are running away from a monster that dissolved five of their friends with its glowing vomit, and another one of their mates took an explosive headshot from an enforcer - is going to have a significant chance of a slapstick outcome.

At the very least a failure rate or a CP cost for Orders on this unit. FRFSRF on a ten man squad with options, that's 6/3 lasgun hits becoming 12/6. On a full Conscript squad, it's 33/16 hits becoming 67/33 hits. If you're taking a unit that can issue Orders, that's a hell of a return relative to the other rifle-bearing line squad.

several wrote:Wait for the Codex


Well no, if the get-you-by Indexes have a balance problem then it's important it gets widely discussed and alternatives considered before it gets written into a Codex.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/26 14:38:59


   
Made in fi
Fresh-Faced New User




<Forced Draft> Any time a Summary Execution is triggered on the conscipts by a commissar, roll a d6 and on 6+ the commissar is slain (mortal wounds?) by the conscripts, add +1 to the roll for every 10 (20%?) conscript casualties taken by the squad during the entire game.


Makes them less of an immovable blob that doesn't run even though they've taken grievous casualties, while not directly nerfing commissars ability to lead. Also makes it riskier to run a single commissar for two conscript squads as they have increased chance of being shot in the face.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

OgreOnAStick wrote:
<Forced Draft> Any time a Summary Execution is triggered on the conscipts by a commissar, roll a d6 and on 6+ the commissar is slain (mortal wounds?) by the conscripts, add +1 to the roll for every 10 (20%?) conscript casualties taken by the squad during the entire game.


Makes them less of an immovable blob that doesn't run even though they've taken grievous casualties, while not directly nerfing commissars ability to lead. Also makes it riskier to run a single commissar for two conscript squads as they have increased chance of being shot in the face.


Wow, why use a nerf bat when you can use a nerf thermonuclear detonation.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




You know, if it were "Conscripts cannot use any other model's leadership in place of their own. In addition, each time the morale check would result in 10 or more casualties, the commissar takes a mortal wound for each 10 ignored (rounding down)". It's fluffy and if you think it ruins the synergy, that commissar would still be negating at minimum 30 casualties at 3 points a pop, more than earning his points back.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/26 15:15:50


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

Stop trying to ruin the synergy with Commissars. The Conscript's durability isn't the problem.

This is the problem with having 50 threads on the same topic - what is proved, with math, in one thread, and that everyone in that thread agrees with, has to be gone over again and again and again in other threads.

Conscripts with Orders are far far too efficient. Conscripts without orders are not.
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

SilverAlien wrote:
You know, if it were "Conscripts cannot use any other model's leadership in place of their own. In addition, each time the morale check would result in 10 or more casualties, the commissar takes a mortal wound for each 10 ignored (rounding down)". It's fluffy and if you think it ruins the synergy, that commissar would still be negating at minimum 30 casualties at 3 points a pop, more than earning his points back.


Why don't you just save some ink and remove the Conscript entry entirely?

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight





 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Stop trying to ruin the synergy with Commissars. The Conscript's durability isn't the problem.

This is the problem with having 50 threads on the same topic - what is proved, with math, in one thread, and that everyone in that thread agrees with, has to be gone over again and again and again in other threads.

Conscripts with Orders are far far too efficient. Conscripts without orders are not.


It's slowly become several people beating a patient with a hammer when a scalpel would have been far more appropriate.

Feed the poor war gamer with money.  
   
Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

Here's my proposal: A standard form that I think covers every "helpful idea" that someone's come up with thus far:


Your post advocates a

( ) point-based ( ) rules-based ( ) market-based ( ) vigilante

approach to fixing conscripts. Your idea will not work. Here is why it won't work. (One or more of the following may apply to your particular idea, and it may have other flaws too.)

( ) You made commissars not worth taking for any other unit
( ) Reinstating rules from a dead edition for a single unit is bad game design
( ) No one will be able to find the guy or collect the money
( ) Commissars potentially killing more models if you fielded them compared to when you don't isn't reasonable
( ) It will stop conscripts for two weeks and then we'll be stuck with it
( ) Astra Militarium players will not put up with it
( ) Games Workshop will not put up with it
( ) The police will not put up with it
( ) Requires too much cooperation from tournament organizers
( ) Requires immediate total cooperation from everybody at once
( ) Suggesting a unit with worse stats and no upgrade options be as/more expensive than a better unit with those options is silly
( ) Shifting points for force multipliers to 'correct' one unit requires anything that uses that multiplier to be rebalanced
( ) Weird exceptions to basic character rules is the whole reason the rules were rewritten to begin with

Specifically, your plan fails to account for

( ) Scaling to high numbers of points
( ) Scaling to low numbers of points
( ) Sniper rifles
( ) Flying assault units
( ) Asshats
( ) Turn one assaults
( ) Unpopularity of one-off rule exceptions
( ) Public reluctance to accept house rules
( ) Huge existing guardsman investment
( ) Likelyhood of unforseen rule imbalances
( ) Unwillingness of competitive players to play more casually
( ) Inadvertantly forcing the use of more conscripts
( ) Literally making conscripts unusuable
( ) Deep striking
( ) Psychic powers
( ) Other hoard armies
( ) Lack of or too much terrain
( ) Elite armies
( ) The Internet
( ) Games Workshop

and the following philosophical objections may also apply:

( ) Ideas similar to yours are easy to come up with, yet none have ever
been shown practical
( ) Any scheme based on opt-out is unacceptable
( ) Terrain should not make that possible
( ) We should be able to take units in our army's book without antagonism.
( ) Changing the rules to fit the meta is the opposite of how the meta should work
( ) Why should we have to trust you and your rules?
( ) Incompatiblity with existing rules
( ) Feel-good measures do nothing to solve the problem
( ) Killing them that way is not humane

Furthermore, this is what I think about you:

( ) Sorry dude, but I don't think it would work.
( ) This is a stupid idea, and I wonder if you've actually played this game.
( ) Nice try, jerk!


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/26 16:00:47


Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
Made in ca
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Sure, conscripts got tougher and there aren't any templates. But people seem to be looking past the fact that twin linked weapons now have double the shots. The TLAC has triple the number of shots.

Conscripts are fine. Their max shooting output averages less than 4 wounds against a Rhino.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/26 16:22:49


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
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Made in fi
Fresh-Faced New User




 Unit1126PLL wrote:


Wow, why use a nerf bat when you can use a nerf thermonuclear detonation.


I think you are overstating the effect. Summary execution happens once per squad per round, so it is only a single roll of dice with a chance of the commisar dying. If the opponent has devoted so much firepower towards the conscripts to make the commisar bite it turn 1, they have already accomplished their job as a bullet sponge.

And yes, the commisar is the problem as he perfectly inoculates the conscripts against their weakness of garbage leadership.
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

OgreOnAStick wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:


Wow, why use a nerf bat when you can use a nerf thermonuclear detonation.


I think you are overstating the effect. Summary execution happens once per squad per round, so it is only a single roll of dice with a chance of the commisar dying. If the opponent has devoted so much firepower towards the conscripts to make the commisar bite it turn 1, they have already accomplished their job as a bullet sponge.

And yes, the commisar is the problem as he perfectly inoculates the conscripts against their weakness of garbage leadership.


That damage can be spread across multiple squads to cause the commissar multiple rolls - in fact, that's the stated point of the nerf.

Also, again, with the math that I've repeated myself about for five times now, a Commissar makes Conscripts damn near exactly as durable, point-for-point, as a tactical marine, while their shooting, point-for-point, is also comparable unless you include orders.

Which is balanced, except for orders.

As I've said.

Like five times.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Unit1126PLL wrote:
OgreOnAStick wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:


Wow, why use a nerf bat when you can use a nerf thermonuclear detonation.


I think you are overstating the effect. Summary execution happens once per squad per round, so it is only a single roll of dice with a chance of the commisar dying. If the opponent has devoted so much firepower towards the conscripts to make the commisar bite it turn 1, they have already accomplished their job as a bullet sponge.

And yes, the commisar is the problem as he perfectly inoculates the conscripts against their weakness of garbage leadership.


That damage can be spread across multiple squads to cause the commissar multiple rolls - in fact, that's the stated point of the nerf.

Also, again, with the math that I've repeated myself about for five times now, a Commissar makes Conscripts damn near exactly as durable, point-for-point, as a tactical marine, while their shooting, point-for-point, is also comparable unless you include orders.

Which is balanced, except for orders.

As I've said.

Like five times.


As a tactical marine *in cover*. If the space marine is in the open, the conscripts are more durable by a large margin. Which you've also been told. Multiple times.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/26 18:35:31


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

SilverAlien wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
OgreOnAStick wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:


Wow, why use a nerf bat when you can use a nerf thermonuclear detonation.


I think you are overstating the effect. Summary execution happens once per squad per round, so it is only a single roll of dice with a chance of the commisar dying. If the opponent has devoted so much firepower towards the conscripts to make the commisar bite it turn 1, they have already accomplished their job as a bullet sponge.

And yes, the commisar is the problem as he perfectly inoculates the conscripts against their weakness of garbage leadership.


That damage can be spread across multiple squads to cause the commissar multiple rolls - in fact, that's the stated point of the nerf.

Also, again, with the math that I've repeated myself about for five times now, a Commissar makes Conscripts damn near exactly as durable, point-for-point, as a tactical marine, while their shooting, point-for-point, is also comparable unless you include orders.

Which is balanced, except for orders.

As I've said.

Like five times.


As a tactical marine *in cover*. If the space marine is in the open, the conscripts are more durable by a large margin. Which you've also been told. Multiple times.


And which I've mentioned happens to line up nicely, since we're talking point for point, with the cost of, Krak grenades, Combat Squads, and pistols on the Space Marines which the Conscripts do not have to pay for.
   
 
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