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Eldenfirefly wrote:

RedCommander wrote:

Nah, why would it be End Time? You actually expect chaos to win? lol

Even if we have a siege on Terra 2, I am pretty sure Chaos and Abbadon will be defeated at the siege and forced to retreat back towards the eye of terror again. At the most, Emperor ascends to godhood and now we have Emperor Avatars like we have Avatar of Khain in Eldar. But everything else likely remains. They will find some way to keep the Astranomicon going (or the ascended Emperor is so powerful he keeps it going himself). All the primarchs will still be around even though there are lots of epic battles between primarchs and such.

Heh, do I expect chaos to win? Never!

Your above scenario would be more interesting than straight up copying Warhammer Fantasy Battle's End Times. It has been done already.

 gnome_idea_what wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Since the Necrons came up, my thoughts...

Necrons are the lords of order, but that doesn't make them nice, or good. Their thoughts are 'the chaos gods are created by emotions, kill everyone and no more chaos gods'

Tyranids are also the forces of order, no stray thoughts in the hive mind!

A Necron/Tyranid alliance to unite the galaxy! One mind, one purpose, no one else!

And if there must be a second Siege O'Terra, let it be because the Emperor has signed on to the kill 'em all Alliance and now Guilleman must stop him!

This requires Necrons to work with the Tyranids, which consist of at least one conscious biological mind (hive mind). It may not have stray thoughts now, but it is problematic on principle. It would also have Tyranids work with something that is completely outside the hive mind, which while not impossible is kinda weird.

Yeah it's problematic.

Visually the Necrons just work as the lords of order, all inflexible steel and silence of death. Plus there are links to the Imperium and Adeptus Mech implying the Emperor is shifting towards their way of seeing things.

But logically the Tyranids work very very well too, one mind, one body, one purpose!

And I can't really see them working together.

Maybe the Nids are Order and the Necrons are just beyond and outside, break the wheel don't spin it?

Or vice versa?

I recall reading somewhere there is a rumor that a possible future faction will be the Men of Iron (presumably coming back somehow and finishing the job). Based on what we know of them from the lore, they make the Necrons looks like the paragons of morality.


Although I don't know how they would pull that off game-wise without the Men of Iron being OP as all hell. This is Dark Age of Technology science we're talking about here.

i would totally dig a Men of Iron faction. It would be hard to balance them with the others. Maybe different categories OR levels of AI, similar in structure to Nids.

Racerguy180 wrote:
i would totally dig a Men of Iron faction. It would be hard to balance them with the others. Maybe different categories OR levels of AI, similar in structure to Nids.

Seeing as there's already two (nearly 3 if you count the tau) factions focused on nothing but technology, adding MoI wouldn't really add anything new and interesting to the game or universe.

I may be in the minority here but I would actually like it if the Imperium split up into different factions.

Have the technology actually advance a bit and then use the new warp storm as a natural way for the Imperium to be broken up a bit. Have a bunch of Primachs return, basically be as horrified as Lord Smurf was at how the Imperium turned out and have them make their own little kingdoms all over the place.

With more advanced technology and the primarchs the different kingdoms could hold up against the various threats out there like Orks, Nids, Necrons, etc. but be very different from each other and provide some interesting avenues for conflict among previously Imperial forces. It would mix up the Imperium vs Everyone else story line that we have had for 30 years.

 vonjankmon wrote:
I may be in the minority here but I would actually like it if the Imperium split up into different factions.

Have the technology actually advance a bit and then use the new warp storm as a natural way for the Imperium to be broken up a bit. Have a bunch of Primachs return, basically be as horrified as Lord Smurf was at how the Imperium turned out and have them make their own little kingdoms all over the place.

With more advanced technology and the primarchs the different kingdoms could hold up against the various threats out there like Orks, Nids, Necrons, etc. but be very different from each other and provide some interesting avenues for conflict among previously Imperial forces. It would mix up the Imperium vs Everyone else story line that we have had for 30 years.

In terms of the imperium being split up into different factions, they pretty much are. They're constantly infighting and the only reason they're all under the imperium is that they work together sometimes for the survival of humanity. If they were all against each other, they'd quickly be isolated, overwhelmed, and destroyed.

Take our main imperium factions, we got the guard, marines, admech, and ecclesiarchy. They're not really alike at all are they? Other than being humans and having a somewhat consistent art design with how they look. The most out there factions are easily admech and ecclesiarchy. Admech are very much isolationists from the rest of the imperium, the only reason they're "allied" is because of the mutual benefits of the imperiums protection and the admechs technology and factories. As for the ecclesiarchy, they are just flying rodent gak insane and constantly accusing many other factions in the imperium of heresy.

I think that fluff conditioning too much factions and models carry to an unnecessarily limited game.
And the game mechanics and stats conditioning too much the fluff leads to incoherent and bad stories.
Sometimes limitations helps creativity but in this case I don't see how.

To me the ideal "starting point" narrative background would be something the more stagnant the better.
Neverending war between a lot of factions with different agendas that keep the galaxy in a dynamic balance.
You can write alternative reality stories, without the obligation to have 50 books with 50 authors coherent with each other (thing that is not possibile anyways... or lead to a bland, boring procedural plotting).

If a character die in a storyline who cares, if it has a miniature and it is in the codex you can use it.
If a really good writer has a good idea for a story in which the universe blow up, Cthulhu eats the Tyranids and gaks mechanised squats all over the milky way, go for it.
The coherent universe idea is something invented to sell more comic books and now Marvel movies. But also in this cases it never can last too much because eventually it implodes on his own weight.

Having a less extreme approach, I'm with the ones that called for a Imperium fragmentation.
A giant schism, between the chapters who believe in literal interpretation of the codex (and the direct authority of Guilliman) and the ones that believe in the authority role of clergy and chapter masters... Or something like it...

 ajaxcrackmaster wrote:

 vonjankmon wrote:
I may be in the minority here but I would actually like it if the Imperium split up into different factions.

Have the technology actually advance a bit and then use the new warp storm as a natural way for the Imperium to be broken up a bit. Have a bunch of Primachs return, basically be as horrified as Lord Smurf was at how the Imperium turned out and have them make their own little kingdoms all over the place.

With more advanced technology and the primarchs the different kingdoms could hold up against the various threats out there like Orks, Nids, Necrons, etc. but be very different from each other and provide some interesting avenues for conflict among previously Imperial forces. It would mix up the Imperium vs Everyone else story line that we have had for 30 years.

In terms of the imperium being split up into different factions, they pretty much are. They're constantly infighting and the only reason they're all under the imperium is that they work together sometimes for the survival of humanity. If they were all against each other, they'd quickly be isolated, overwhelmed, and destroyed.

Take our main imperium factions, we got the guard, marines, admech, and ecclesiarchy. They're not really alike at all are they? Other than being humans and having a somewhat consistent art design with how they look. The most out there factions are easily admech and ecclesiarchy. Admech are very much isolationists from the rest of the imperium, the only reason they're "allied" is because of the mutual benefits of the imperiums protection and the admechs technology and factories. As for the ecclesiarchy, they are just flying rodent gak insane and constantly accusing many other factions in the imperium of heresy.

The problem is this infighting disappears the moment it comes to any major background or any worldwide campaigns, and then invariably the Craftworld Eldar end up being the status quo reinforcing faction. When it comes to such lopsided player numbers (the most numerous player bloc is the Imperium, and the Craftworlders are one of the most numerous xenos factions), there is no suspense as to the outcome of any events.

The latest conflict between the Ultramarines and the Death Guard also seem to set up a Saturday morning cartoon dynamic of clear good guys vs. clear bad guys.

They should set up more intra-Imperium conflict that is not so clear cut. For example, some ancient monument erected by a Chapter has some sort of archeotech/relic underneath it. The Adeptus Mechanicus want to demolish the monument to acquire the item. The Space Marines want to keep the monument intact and undisturbed. The Ecclesiarchy want to demolish the monument to then destroy the item, because they view it as unclean or heretical.

They need to step back from this black and white divide that they seem to be setting up with Guilliman being the light of goodness and reason and everyone else being superstitious or corrupt.

Iracundus wrote:

 ajaxcrackmaster wrote:

 vonjankmon wrote:
I may be in the minority here but I would actually like it if the Imperium split up into different factions.

Have the technology actually advance a bit and then use the new warp storm as a natural way for the Imperium to be broken up a bit. Have a bunch of Primachs return, basically be as horrified as Lord Smurf was at how the Imperium turned out and have them make their own little kingdoms all over the place.

With more advanced technology and the primarchs the different kingdoms could hold up against the various threats out there like Orks, Nids, Necrons, etc. but be very different from each other and provide some interesting avenues for conflict among previously Imperial forces. It would mix up the Imperium vs Everyone else story line that we have had for 30 years.

In terms of the imperium being split up into different factions, they pretty much are. They're constantly infighting and the only reason they're all under the imperium is that they work together sometimes for the survival of humanity. If they were all against each other, they'd quickly be isolated, overwhelmed, and destroyed.

Take our main imperium factions, we got the guard, marines, admech, and ecclesiarchy. They're not really alike at all are they? Other than being humans and having a somewhat consistent art design with how they look. The most out there factions are easily admech and ecclesiarchy. Admech are very much isolationists from the rest of the imperium, the only reason they're "allied" is because of the mutual benefits of the imperiums protection and the admechs technology and factories. As for the ecclesiarchy, they are just flying rodent gak insane and constantly accusing many other factions in the imperium of heresy.

The problem is this infighting disappears the moment it comes to any major background or any worldwide campaigns, and then invariably the Craftworld Eldar end up being the status quo reinforcing faction. When it comes to such lopsided player numbers (the most numerous player bloc is the Imperium, and the Craftworlders are one of the most numerous xenos factions), there is no suspense as to the outcome of any events.

The latest conflict between the Ultramarines and the Death Guard also seem to set up a Saturday morning cartoon dynamic of clear good guys vs. clear bad guys.

They should set up more intra-Imperium conflict that is not so clear cut. For example, some ancient monument erected by a Chapter has some sort of archeotech/relic underneath it. The Adeptus Mechanicus want to demolish the monument to acquire the item. The Space Marines want to keep the monument intact and undisturbed. The Ecclesiarchy want to demolish the monument to then destroy the item, because they view it as unclean or heretical.

They need to step back from this black and white divide that they seem to be setting up with Guilliman being the light of goodness and reason and everyone else being superstitious or corrupt.

I'm not talking about the very thin reasons that GW have provided as reasons that your IG may be fighting other IG or an Ad Mech army. I'm talking about the Lion returning, saying "Feth this mess" pulling all of the successor chapters together in a part of the universe and setting up the "Caliban Collective" or whatever. Make smaller imperial soup armies that can share some keywords but are missing other entirely, like no assassins or other marine chapters but your IG can take 4+ carapace armor and an extra plasma gun in their infantry squads because the Dark Angels actually bother arming their cannon fodder a bit. The options for truly different empires are huge, imagine an empire under strong influence from the more radical Inquisitors or an empire where the Mechanicus is the primary ruling faction without the other factions to balance them out. An empire that allies with the Tau or one that maybe is ruled from the shadows by that Necron guy that was involved with the whole Lord Smurf resurrection bit. Options are endless and could be a hell of a lot of fun both story wise and game wise.

The Ecclesiachy being annoyed with the Mechanicus or a specific Space Marine chapter over something is the same old thing we've had for years, I don't want the various existing factions within the imperium to fight it out, I want brand new factions that can actually stand on their own to pop up.

There are already examples of some of those things you are talking about. If you want worlds that are aligned more closely with the Mechanicus, something along the lines of the old 3.5 Imperial Guard Codex where the infantry could get a 6++ save, representing some degree of cybernetic augmentation. If you want a pocket empire where the Recongregator faction of the Inquisition has taken over, you can introduce some select elements from FW 30k rules representing rediscovery or unlocking of previously sealed vaults. Or alternatively maybe you can have armies with vast hordes of willing Conscripts representing a populist leader mobilizing the masses with some improvement in living conditions.

 vonjankmon wrote:
...I'm talking about the Lion returning, saying "Feth this mess" pulling all of the successor chapters together in a part of the universe and setting up the "Caliban Collective" or whatever. Make smaller imperial soup armies that can share some keywords but are missing other entirely...

I like it! As much as I hate the way GW has 'advanced the timeline' fluff wise, I would find myself enjoying it immensely if it involved the balkanization of the Imperium, and the resulting Xeno's empires that would rise up to fill the cracks and the edges. I mean actual empires, like the Tau Empire as an example, in that they have an area of the galactic map big enough that is theirs and theirs alone to actually warrant showing on a galactic map. Not just three worlds in a no-name subsector, who's location is vaguely hinted at but has no real impact.

I want a galactic map with borders.

"The big one" the Tau plot development they have been teasing for ages. The new form of faster than light travel that doesn't use the warp. With their new speed and range they conquer Ultramar. This would be during a hypothetical 6th sphere of expansion. The Primarchs are too busy fighting each other to care and playing 30k in their basement.

That would be sick as hell, but I might change my mind when I read the up to date Tau fluff.

 Gamgee wrote:
"The big one" the Tau plot development they have been teasing for ages. The new form of faster than light travel that doesn't use the warp. With their new speed and range they conquer Ultramar. This would be during a hypothetical 6th sphere of expansion. The Primarchs are too busy fighting each other to care and playing 30k in their basement.

That would be sick as hell, but I might change my mind when I read the up to date Tau fluff.

I too would like to see new Tau fluff. I think they should take a more central role to the plot. Maybe they use the Imperium's current fractured state to take massive chunks out of it?

I would also like to see the Primaris marines develop some flaws. Maybe their geneseed starts to degrade with the new implants? Maybe they have some built in "problems" in reproducing additional Primaris marines that necessitates that they are always dependent on Cawl and his sect of the Mechanicus. Like, after enough generations their geneseed decays and the chapter has to get a restock. It would make sense as it would ensure that Cawl has a future in the Imperium.

Id like to see a fracture in the imperium, but one driven by a difference of opinion in how best to protect it- leading to a number of solar system sized mini empires (think Ancient Greece with their city states).

Leading to min conflicts between imperium factions, but then also allowing for the inevitable "unite against the xenos" storylines.

The background has to be broad- just give a nice bit of fluff as to why the galaxy has split between all of the factions with each one making multiple alliances etc in order to further their own "empire". Now you have a setting for all of your stories and minor fluff- Want an Eldar vs Tau campaign, go for it. Want a Dark Angels Vs Wolves campaign, fine.

Basically just kill the Emperor, Have some elements fight on in his memory etc, have some rebel against the principles but still agree with the cause (humanity), have some straight up try and carve their own empire out

I'd like to see the Inquisition get more directly/regularly involved in the plot lines. For example, imagine a story-arc where the Red Hunters are told by the Inquisition that they have to accept their new Primaris reinforcements, but to study them in secret and look for weaknesses. Meanwhile, the Inquisition is looking for ways to undermine Bobby G because they don't believe he's actually a Primarch and are worried that he may in fact be a warp entity.

Would also like to see the Tau get developed a little more. With the galaxy now torn in half by the warp, they are going to run into Demons a lot more than they previously have. It would be interesting to see those interactions. Especially given the Tau's strategy of trying to assimilate new races.

The emperor awakens, grown completely insane from being locked awake inside the throne, he succumbed to chaos and is the one that completes the prophecy by destroying Holy terra.

The most grim dark that I could imagine

 minisnatcher wrote:
The emperor awakens, grown completely insane from being locked awake inside the throne, he succumbed to chaos and is the one that completes the prophecy by destroying Holy terra.

The most grim dark that I could imagine

"I've decided to play Chaos."

"Imperial Chaos or Chaos God Chaos?"

"Imperial Chaos"

'Worshipping Gulliman or the Emperor?"

"The Emperor"

"Here's Your codex"

 vonjankmon wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

 ajaxcrackmaster wrote:

 vonjankmon wrote:
I may be in the minority here but I would actually like it if the Imperium split up into different factions.

Have the technology actually advance a bit and then use the new warp storm as a natural way for the Imperium to be broken up a bit. Have a bunch of Primachs return, basically be as horrified as Lord Smurf was at how the Imperium turned out and have them make their own little kingdoms all over the place.

With more advanced technology and the primarchs the different kingdoms could hold up against the various threats out there like Orks, Nids, Necrons, etc. but be very different from each other and provide some interesting avenues for conflict among previously Imperial forces. It would mix up the Imperium vs Everyone else story line that we have had for 30 years.

In terms of the imperium being split up into different factions, they pretty much are. They're constantly infighting and the only reason they're all under the imperium is that they work together sometimes for the survival of humanity. If they were all against each other, they'd quickly be isolated, overwhelmed, and destroyed.

Take our main imperium factions, we got the guard, marines, admech, and ecclesiarchy. They're not really alike at all are they? Other than being humans and having a somewhat consistent art design with how they look. The most out there factions are easily admech and ecclesiarchy. Admech are very much isolationists from the rest of the imperium, the only reason they're "allied" is because of the mutual benefits of the imperiums protection and the admechs technology and factories. As for the ecclesiarchy, they are just flying rodent gak insane and constantly accusing many other factions in the imperium of heresy.

The problem is this infighting disappears the moment it comes to any major background or any worldwide campaigns, and then invariably the Craftworld Eldar end up being the status quo reinforcing faction. When it comes to such lopsided player numbers (the most numerous player bloc is the Imperium, and the Craftworlders are one of the most numerous xenos factions), there is no suspense as to the outcome of any events.

The latest conflict between the Ultramarines and the Death Guard also seem to set up a Saturday morning cartoon dynamic of clear good guys vs. clear bad guys.

They should set up more intra-Imperium conflict that is not so clear cut. For example, some ancient monument erected by a Chapter has some sort of archeotech/relic underneath it. The Adeptus Mechanicus want to demolish the monument to acquire the item. The Space Marines want to keep the monument intact and undisturbed. The Ecclesiarchy want to demolish the monument to then destroy the item, because they view it as unclean or heretical.

They need to step back from this black and white divide that they seem to be setting up with Guilliman being the light of goodness and reason and everyone else being superstitious or corrupt.

I'm not talking about the very thin reasons that GW have provided as reasons that your IG may be fighting other IG or an Ad Mech army. I'm talking about the Lion returning, saying "Feth this mess" pulling all of the successor chapters together in a part of the universe and setting up the "Caliban Collective" or whatever. Make smaller imperial soup armies that can share some keywords but are missing other entirely, like no assassins or other marine chapters but your IG can take 4+ carapace armor and an extra plasma gun in their infantry squads because the Dark Angels actually bother arming their cannon fodder a bit. The options for truly different empires are huge, imagine an empire under strong influence from the more radical Inquisitors or an empire where the Mechanicus is the primary ruling faction without the other factions to balance them out. An empire that allies with the Tau or one that maybe is ruled from the shadows by that Necron guy that was involved with the whole Lord Smurf resurrection bit. Options are endless and could be a hell of a lot of fun both story wise and game wise.

The Ecclesiachy being annoyed with the Mechanicus or a specific Space Marine chapter over something is the same old thing we've had for years, I don't want the various existing factions within the imperium to fight it out, I want brand new factions that can actually stand on their own to pop up.

Eh, it wouldn't really make sense in the lore. How would humanity survive if they were split up on a galactic scale? They're already screwed as it is. It doesn't make sense to not band together.

And you're talking about all this potential for truly different empires but there are?? You really think the imperial guard, admech, and space marines don't come off as different empires? They are so different and distinct lore wise and on the tabletop. Just compare the different guard regiments, they're all so different that it's crazy.



This is a bit contradictory to the thread but personally I don't believe 40k should have a grand plotline. You're meant to have your own battles and make your own stories through that. Not wait for games workshop to advance a grand storyline that was never really meant to have a narrative in the first place.The lore is just for inspiration for everyone to make their own stories. The only reason they advance the storyline is just an excuse to make and sell new models and to satisfy the whiners. It's like asking to advance the dungeons and dragons storyline or something.
They couldn't change anything significantly without disappointing a lot of people.

Whoa, just... whoa. A plot where the imperium would split to multiple empires would be the epitome of unfluffy. Not to mention, the Emperor succumbing to chaos. He's basically a concept now: "Humanity must win." There is no way that would change.

Or what would you think about a piece of fluff where Khorne, Slaanesh, Tzeentch and Nurgle all realize the error of their ways, proclaim that the Emperor was right and as a token of their repentance, report to the nearest commissar for their summary executions. This is about the same thing as the above. Ie. Horrible fluff for a wargame.

 ajaxcrackmaster wrote:

This is a bit contradictory to the thread but personally I don't believe 40k should have a grand plotline. You're meant to have your own battles and make your own stories through that. Not wait for games workshop to advance a grand storyline that was never really meant to have a narrative in the first place.The lore is just for inspiration for everyone to make their own stories. The only reason they advance the storyline is just an excuse to make and sell new models and to satisfy the whiners. It's like asking to advance the dungeons and dragons storyline or something.
They couldn't change anything significantly without disappointing a lot of people.

Indeed.

Seriously agree with Ajaxcrackmaster.

Jokingly.

And then the mighty horde of Chaos reached Terra itself with Ghaxghkull and his horde of hard boyz sort of allied until the very last moment when Abaddon was about to take the palace after an Epic bout with Gulliman Ghaxghkull just turns up nuts the pair of them and wanders off.

Seriously

Nids vs Chaos The Maelstrom being entered by an Hive Fleet pure carnage pure blood shed pure horror.

The Imperium has only been declining due to its insistence that things not change. No new technology, keep the Space Marines in check by keeping their numbers small, keep the Imperial Guard and Imperial Fleets separate, etc.

If the Imperium basically stopped being risk adverse and said we are retaking the galaxy, they would damn well do it on size of force alone. You saw a really brief instance of it with the Primaris marines, imagine if they had just kept churning them out as quickly as possible and didn't care about limiting chapter sizes or anything like that.

Portions of the imperium could easily hold their own out there if they just fought smart and took some risks. And the side benefit of taking those risks as far as the story goes is that there could be some truly interesting events that result from those risks.

 vonjankmon wrote:
The Imperium has only been declining due to its insistence that things not change. No new technology, keep the Space Marines in check by keeping their numbers small, keep the Imperial Guard and Imperial Fleets separate, etc.

If the Imperium basically stopped being risk adverse and said we are retaking the galaxy, they would damn well do it on size of force alone. You saw a really brief instance of it with the Primaris marines, imagine if they had just kept churning them out as quickly as possible and didn't care about limiting chapter sizes or anything like that.

Portions of the imperium could easily hold their own out there if they just fought smart and took some risks. And the side benefit of taking those risks as far as the story goes is that there could be some truly interesting events that result from those risks.

Heh, I agree on general level that the imperium could fight smarter. That's a given.

But then again, it wouldn't be the imperium of the 41th century anymore, would it?*

It would be the same if the followers of chaos decided that being selfish #*%s is not strategically sound and became exemplary team players.

Change things too much and you chip away the faction identity, which is what made the faction in question so interesting in the first place.

*However, somehow seeing the imperium of the 31st and the imperium of 41st century clash ideologically? That would be cool. Oh, wait. There's If the Emperor Had a Text to Speech Device.

The Necrons' fluff sucks. They changed their fluff in fifth they can change it again especially with the new advances in the timeline. I'd like to see more of the C'tan, the Outsider and Void Dragon would be great as a Primarch equivalent.

The Void Dragon has to be one of the worst pieces of fluff in-universe. I'm hoping he'll be squatted.