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 Arkaine wrote:
Given how dirt cheap Guard detachments are...

I don't think Guard players will be fielding single regiments. Expect to face armies that mix and match regiments up to whatever tournament detachment limit there is and exploit things like this "Sniper Rifles for EVERYONE!" stratagem or mobile Lemun Russes that double fire.

Seen tons of Space Marine and Chaos players doing this so I wouldn't be surprised.

All I know is I am gonna replace the 10 battle cannons on my 4th edition russes with punishers.

All the dakka all the time.

So...

Bringing multiple regiments to a single game is super fluffy and awesome. It's how the Imperial Guard form battlegroups.

I love that these work the way they do.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
They did FAQ squad coherency and "as a single group" to prevent the buddy system.

It's more an annoyance with the general 8e mechanics. Given that AOEs and Tank Shock are gone, the defender allocates all casualties, and pile-in is optional, a lot of tools to "outmaneuver" such blobs are no longer fully present, leaving 'weight of dice' as the only realistic answer now, and that's not the sort of game I'm looking for. Imagine if Street Fighter II was Zangeif and Dan Hibiki alone, with Vega noobslaying Dan, but bouncing off the Russkie juggernaut.

This has been my main problem with 8th edition mechanics. Everything is about weight of dice more than anything else. That, and most strategies revolving around plasma is kinda boring.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

 crimsondave wrote:
You can tack on three heavy bolters to that too for an extra 9 S5 shots too.

EDIT: I forgot if the hull can have a heavy bolter. It's either that or something else it can't have and I can't for the life of me remember it off the top of my head.

It can have a Heavy B, Lascannon, or Heavy Flamer on the hull. No Plasma on the hull.

Double shots only applies to the turret weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ignoring heavy weapon penalties on leman russes is perfectly reasonable, and I hope baneblades get it too.

In all honesty, the double shots for the leman russ would be pretty reasonable for some turret mounted weapons. The battle cannon, for example, seems fair enough, it was often criticized for its lack of damage output.

But EVERYTHING damn sure didn't deserve double shots, and not for free, but for less.

And how is plasma sniper squads not flying rodent gak bonkers broken? For free no less, I could almost see it being a stratagem, but just an auto-passing order seems stupid OP.

What next, conscripts down to 1PPM and BS3+?

There is a fair chance we'll see some point increases and splitting of weapon costs between units with varied BS values or abilities like in other books.

Wow, what a colossal pimp slap to assault armies. It's not as if we were doing amazing up to this point, and now in comes Mordians with basically a second shooting phase in my assault phase. And on top of that getting an order to snipe characters, and we're taking about game where you're just watching your orks or nids fall apart before they even get to the front line and then slapping ineffectually slap against a wall like butter. And hey, we got proof that conscripts do get the buffs from doctrines, so you if want str 4 attacks for half the cost of ork boyz or hitting in overwatch better than than they can in their own shooting phase you can! Hell, maybe we'll find out tomorrow that vostroyan conscripts get 4+ armor saves! Who gives a gak if they can't take orders, as long as they're effected by commissar they're still a unbreakable wall that'll laugh at any assault unit that isn't Khorne Berzerkers

The buff to Leman Russes is absurd. Double your shots for moving half speed in an army that doesn't need to move to win games, and even if you do move? no penalties. Vanquishers getting two shots basically ignore their main draw back, punishers will turn ork boyz into mulch,extermimators will basicly be putting out more hits than loota boyz. AND ALL WITH A POINTS DECREASE. Hell, we don't know what Cadians are getting, they might just get reoll 1s on everythings and pask will basicly be a tank driving god.

What's the heck is even playing this game if I'm just going to get ground into the dirt by the most boring army in the game

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
Wow, what a colossal pimp slap to assault armies. It's not as if we were doing amazing up to this point, and now in comes Mordians with basically a second shooting phase in my assault phase. And on top of that getting an order to snipe characters, and we're taking about game where you're just watching your orks or nids fall apart before they even get to the front line and then slapping ineffectually slap against a wall like butter. And hey, we got proof that conscripts do get the buffs from doctrines, so you if want str 4 attacks for half the cost of ork boyz or hitting in overwatch better than than they can in their own shooting phase you can! Hell, maybe we'll find out tomorrow that vostroyan conscripts get 4+ armor saves! Who gives a gak if they can't take orders, as long as they're effected by commissar they're still a unbreakable wall that'll laugh at any assault unit that isn't Khorne Berzerkers

The buff to Leman Russes is absurd. Double your shots for moving half speed in an army that doesn't need to move to win games, and even if you do move? no penalties. Vanquishers getting two shots basically ignore their main draw back, punishers will turn ork boyz into mulch,extermimators will basicly be putting out more hits than loota boyz. AND ALL WITH A POINTS DECREASE. Hell, we don't know what Cadians are getting, they might just get reoll 1s on everythings and pask will basicly be a tank driving god.

What's the heck is even playing this game if I'm just going to get ground into the dirt by the most boring army in the game

Calm down. You don't have your dex yet. Leman Russes were not the problem in the index. In fact, they stunk. The turret weapons needed a buff, badly. The only LR I would be concerned about is the Punisher. If it's OP, it will get nerfed. GW seems to being paying attention.

Where is the proof conscripts get buffs from doctrines? I'm asking, not arguing. I haven't seen that anywhere. If they do it's really stupid. I thought the fluff behind the nerf was going to be conscripts are too undisciplined to take orders (most likely) and may take more damage from commissars if they even benefit from them. If they are too undisciplined for that, why would they disciplined enough to benefit from doctrines?

Parade Drill adds some much-needed insurance to your units against getting charged, rewarding you for careful positioning of your army. From humble Conscripts to even the Baneblade, there are few units that don’t benefit from this rule.

The implication being that both Conscripts and SHVs benefit from regiment rules.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

Parade Drill adds some much-needed insurance to your units against getting charged, rewarding you for careful positioning of your army. From humble Conscripts to even the Baneblade, there are few units that don’t benefit from this rule.

The implication being that both Conscripts and SHVs benefit from regiment rules.

Well, that's pretty stupid. Why would you buff a unit you already said you were nerfing? I don't get it.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
Seen tons of Space Marine and Chaos players doing this so I wouldn't be surprised.

nekooni wrote:
Isn't that true for ANY Codex army? I can easily group my marines into two or three detachments and pick the best CT for each detachment. It's something almost everyone gets in 8th, except for snowflake armies like Grey Knights. Might wanna start getting used to that.

Difference here guys is that this edition is built on CP. Fielding multiple battalions or a brigade is all but impossible for a marine player. To abuse legions, you're going to have to suffer on the CP front and reduce access to fabulous rerolls and stratagems. But for a guard player, whose detachments can be dirt cheap, I've seen them run 12-18 CP lists with ease before their codex even dropped.

So not only will Guard will getting all these fabulous legion traits and strats but they'll actually be able to spam them too.

 crimsondave wrote:


Calm down. You don't have your dex yet. Leman Russes were not the problem in the index. In fact, they stunk. The turret weapons needed a buff, badly. The only LR I would be concerned about is the Punisher. If it's OP, it will get nerfed. GW seems to being paying attention.

Agree. Also, I can imagine they made the Punisher Heavy 10 or maybe 12-15.

 Arkaine wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:
Seen tons of Space Marine and Chaos players doing this so I wouldn't be surprised.

nekooni wrote:
Isn't that true for ANY Codex army? I can easily group my marines into two or three detachments and pick the best CT for each detachment. It's something almost everyone gets in 8th, except for snowflake armies like Grey Knights. Might wanna start getting used to that.

Difference here guys is that this edition is built on CP. Fielding multiple battalions or a brigade is all but impossible for a marine player. To abuse legions, you're going to have to suffer on the CP front and reduce access to fabulous rerolls and stratagems. But for a guard player, whose detachments can be dirt cheap, I've seen them run 12-18 CP lists with ease before their codex even dropped.

So not only will Guard will getting all these fabulous legion traits and strats but they'll actually be able to spam them too.

People keep missing that last bit. I struggle to do pure Marines and get maybe 8 command points. Guard can do an EASY brigade and get tons of points to spare.

Chaos can field a playable 600 pt. brigade using Renegades & Heretics.
Imperials can field a 700 pt. guard brigade.

Yes, guard can field a ton of CP, but that is one of the primary benefits of fielding them.

Can't wait for all the people that hated on Counts As Marines switching CT having no qualms tailoring their Cadians counts as every game


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Codex creep is definitely back. The solution to that brand new army that's twice as resilient? Let's give them an army with twice as much firepower.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Can't wait for all the people that hated on Counts As Marines switching CT having no qualms tailoring their Cadians counts as every game


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Codex creep is definitely back. The solution to that brand new army that's twice as resilient? Let's give them an army with twice as much firepower.

I am a big critic of GW and I have no faith in their design team but Punisher excluded, the Russ rule means useable Russes.
That's it.
Do the math and you will se on average is not that much.

And even for the Punisher, it just makes it a little more cost effective than 2 Taurox Primes.

The biggest problem I see is simply factions that have a codex vs. not (as usual).

 perilsensitive wrote:
And even for the Punisher, it just makes it a little more cost effective than 2 Taurox Primes.

The biggest problem I see is simply factions that have a codex vs. not (as usual).

Genuine question - should we be more worried for factions that had a codex but still is meh?
8th looks better than 6th so far - I remember the trauma CSM - DA - Tau

I just saw the update, and all I could say was "Oh sweet Lord!" I don't think Mordians in particular are too powerful (but they are good), but double-firing Leman Russes? Holy crap! Not that they didn't need a buff, but according to the article they also got a price drop. 40k is going to become World of Tanks, and the funny thing is that I'm actually okay with that to a degree since I like tanks (although I don't play Guard, err, Astra Militarum).

 perilsensitive wrote:
And even for the Punisher, it just makes it a little more cost effective than 2 Taurox Primes.

The biggest problem I see is simply factions that have a codex vs. not (as usual).

Chapter Approved is coming and is supposed to alleviate some of that codex vs not codex crap. Nifty toys will be given to the people still waiting for their books and point rebalances for OP stuff in existing codex will arrive too.

People that don't understand balance, and think that because Guard have OP units like commisar+conscript combo, Scions Spam, Taurox Primes, etc... ALL of their units are OP, so is bad that they buff the worst ones like Leman Russes...

I'll wait for the Codex before fliping the table and posting rants online. I want to see how they nerf Tempestus Scions (And I ran a mixed imperial inquisitorial force with a core of Tempestus), Conscripts, etc... but I want too, to see how they buff sentinels, Leman Russes, etc...

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I just saw the update, and all I could say was "Oh sweet Lord!" I don't think Mordians in particular are too powerful (but they are good), but double-firing Leman Russes? Holy crap! Not that they didn't need a buff, but according to the article they also got a price drop. 40k is going to become World of Tanks, and the funny thing is that I'm actually okay with that to a degree since I like tanks (although I don't play Guard, err, Astra Militarum).

Considering various mediocre units in other codexes got buffs and/or price drops (off the top of my head, Terminators, Obliterators, Possessed, Warpsmith) and didn't upset the meta too much, I don't think the buff to the russ is anything to worry about. Plus before they were either stationary turrets or firing at BS5, this is a welcomed change. The only outlier is the Punisher, who was already "decent" in the index but now is pretty awesome. The Battle Cannon, on the other hand, should have always been essentially 2D6 shots instead of just D6.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I just saw the update, and all I could say was "Oh sweet Lord!" I don't think Mordians in particular are too powerful (but they are good), but double-firing Leman Russes? Holy crap! Not that they didn't need a buff, but according to the article they also got a price drop. 40k is going to become World of Tanks, and the funny thing is that I'm actually okay with that to a degree since I like tanks (although I don't play Guard, err, Astra Militarum).

Considering various mediocre units in other codexes got buffs and/or price drops (off the top of my head, Terminators, Obliterators, Possessed, Warpsmith) and didn't upset the meta too much, I don't think the buff to the russ is anything to worry about. Plus before they were either stationary turrets or firing at BS5, this is a welcomed change. The only outlier is the Punisher, who was already "decent" in the index but now is pretty awesome. The Battle Cannon, on the other hand, should have always been essentially 2D6 shots instead of just D6.

Even with the buff your standard Punisher is only causing ~4.35 wounds to MEQ (w/the Punisher alone). Paskquisher ups that to ~7.2. Actually makes LRBTs and its variants interesting/viable to take, up from the current meta where they're not considered a competitive choice at all. Single lascannon shot still has pretty decent chance to cripple a Leman Russ, too - so as attractive as they've become they're relatively easier to handle over Infantry-based gunline IG. Punisher only has a 29" threat radius too, provided they don't change ranges/move values, to maintain the double-shot part of grinding advance.

I recognize that Leman Russes are not good as of currently, but at the same time I can see it's possible that with such a large buff combined with a price drop can make them powerful even if not the most powerful option in the game. Even if they're still weaker than conscripts, an army is not entirely composed of a single unit type, and if Leman Russ replaces what's previously used to support conscripts it's make an overall powerful list in an army that's already doing well.

Certainly I'm not happy that it's going to be next year before orks get their codex, so I'm going to have to deal with this for some time...

I like that they are doing something to make Russes better.

Mordian rules look interesting but I guess I won't be playing them because I don't feel like investing to metal minis or third party plastics.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
I recognize that Leman Russes are not good as of currently, but at the same time I can see it's possible that with such a large buff combined with a price drop can make them powerful even if not the most powerful option in the game. Even if they're still weaker than conscripts, an army is not entirely composed of a single unit type, and if Leman Russ replaces what's previously used to support conscripts it's make an overall powerful list in an army that's already doing well.

Certainly I'm not happy that it's going to be next year before orks get their codex, so I'm going to have to deal with this for some time...

Chapter approved will probably help you some but I doubt it can make up for not having a codex. They really should have released all of the popular codex at once.

In a way I do kind of have mixed feelings about how good the previews are looking.

Obviously, I like having an army that isn't a joke and that people actually have to think about when building a list. It's pretty great knowing opponents have to think "Hmm, but what if I face Guard?" instead of "lol Guard, I'll roll over them no matter what I take".

And if GW is making us FOTM on purpose, that suggests that they might have some new models in the pipe and they're juicing our rules so that they'll sell. So you know, yay new models.

I just hope the backlash isn't too severe and that they don't proceed to nerf us into the ground once they've met their sales goals. Of course, I'm sure the vocal group that seems to think Guard is *supposed* to just be a punching bag for their betters to roll over will go ballistic anyway.

That's the other thing. With Chapter Approved being a thing again, even if there are imbalances they might be corrected pretty swiftly (like the flyer thing).

Any Tyranid Player will remember the dark years of the 5th and 6th edition codexes, where we had basically one decent build that ticked off everyone while the rest of the codex was basically garbage, with almost no salvation in sight.

 crimsondave wrote:

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

Parade Drill adds some much-needed insurance to your units against getting charged, rewarding you for careful positioning of your army. From humble Conscripts to even the Baneblade, there are few units that don’t benefit from this rule.

The implication being that both Conscripts and SHVs benefit from regiment rules.

Well, that's pretty stupid. Why would you buff a unit you already said you were nerfing? I don't get it.

Because their objective is balance, not see-saw buff/nerfing units forever.

"Compensation buffs" are a normal thing in game balancing. It's the mark of good balancing, actually. I don't know exactly what the nerfs to conscripts look like but if word on the street is correct they're close to being pretty bad after the codex rules become de facto.

The SKY is FALLING!!! Argh!!

 Hollow wrote:
The SKY is FALLING!!! Argh!!

Because it got shot up by all of the Punishers?

*lamejoke*