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++ Mars Battalion ++
Cawl
Enginseer (with auto caduceus, for 1 cp)
3x5 rangers
1x6 kastalens
1082
++Catachan Battalion++
2x1 Lord Commissar (5+ cp refund WT on one)
Harker
3x20 conscripts
2x3 earthshaker battery
798
++Catachan Spearhead++
Company Commander (with Aquila relic)
3x1 tarantula+heavy bolter
102
So what's the logic behind the knight spam? They have fairly poor firepower for cost. Just tying to outlast the enemy?
What are you going to use for the earthshaker batteries, model wise? I like the list. It makes a lot of sense. Only thing I would consider would be swapping those tarantulas for a culexus, you are not hurting for Str5 firepower and should have enough CP to burn the auxiliary.
EDIT: I have a friend who wants to get into 40k. I was going to let him run a knight list to get a feel for the game.
For earthshaker batteries I use the main portion non chimera portion of the basilisk kit, which I have magnetized so I can use it as a basilisk or earthshaker battery (or carriage if I ever could be bothered to build/purchase the carriage portion).
The tricky bit is the little platform it's mounted on. Mine are really basic little things made out of plasticard. I actually got a friend to do It for me, based on some rough dimensions we found online.
kastelen wrote: there should probably be a datasmith just to make whichever type of kastelan you want to be better
I just use the binharic override turn one, after I get them into position, so that I'm firing twice first turn. After you use that a datasmith can't change protocols anyways, so he'd be twiddling his thumbs mostly.
So what's the logic behind the knight spam? They have fairly poor firepower for cost. Just tying to outlast the enemy?
In a competitive setting, you play to your greatest strength. Now that there is a shooting army that outranges, outguns, and outnumbers us, it is increasingly questionable if trying to outshoot them remains the better strategy. Going 100% Stygies allows us to outlast them. Going Knights allows us to take them in CC. As I point out in my Knight write-up above, most things that can threaten a Knight in shooting cannot threaten it in fighting. Knights can carve through Lemon Russes; the Errant build I posted deals an average of 19.3 wounds per round.
So what's the logic behind the knight spam? They have fairly poor firepower for cost. Just tying to outlast the enemy?
In a competitive setting, you play to your greatest strength. Now that there is a shooting army that outranges, outguns, and outnumbers us, it is increasingly questionable if trying to outshoot them remains the better strategy. Going 100% Stygies allows us to outlast them. Going Knights allows us to take them in CC. As I point out in my Knight write-up above, most things that can threaten a Knight in shooting cannot threaten it in fighting. Knights can carve through Lemon Russes; the Errant build I posted deals an average of 19.3 wounds per round.
But... how do we get to the juicy center? Are the stomp attacks and guns going to be able to cut through the chaff faster than their guns cut through the Knights?
But... how do we get to the juicy center? Are the stomp attacks and guns going to be able to cut through the chaff faster than their guns cut through the Knights?
Gauntlet and Stormspear, on average, kill a Lemon Russ in one turn. If the other gun is an Avenger, you are killing one minimum squad a turn. If it is a TC, you are crippling another Lemon Russ. Three Knights kill and cripple all of the Lemon Russes you would expect to be able to, if only you get in range in time. That means aggressive deployment and screening to prevent deep strikes. You also use Ion Shields, Tech-Adept, Resurgent Machine Spirit, etc. to stay alive.
You also also look to do something lame like using Dragoons in concert with a pair of Knights. The Knight charges a unit, and the other two Dragoons "pin" it in place. Makes it impossible for them to shoot you if done correctly. ("But we can't shoot the Knight, he's too close to that Razorback!")
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/10/03 05:52:32
SilverAlien wrote: Well... yes the gauntlet kills russes of course, but that'll be turn 3 or 4 at the earliest.
Also an avenger kills a little less the. 7 IG or conscripts per turn. I'd assume most lists that we would be worried about run 80-100 at minimum.
It's a dominant strategy. Kill all the tanks and artillery. Then focus all efforts on killing the Conscripts. Goal is to table them. Don't even bother with objectives. You flat out won't win that race.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/03 06:15:42
What about Lucius deep strike robots with phosphor hands and incendine flamers? Those things have a 12" range and auto hit. Then you can add in the shooting.Seems like that could do some serious damage to a blob.
Suzuteo wrote: It's a dominant strategy. Kill all the tanks and artillery. Then focus all efforts on killing the Conscripts. Goal is to table them. Don't even bother with objectives. You flat out won't win that race.
Okay but again, how? You won't ever reach melee range with a Russ or artillery platform until you kill at least the majority of the conscripts. They can just screen you. Being able to fall back across models doesn't help if they don't give you any room for your model.
Suzuteo wrote: It's a dominant strategy. Kill all the tanks and artillery. Then focus all efforts on killing the Conscripts. Goal is to table them. Don't even bother with objectives. You flat out won't win that race.
Okay but again, how? You won't ever reach melee range with a Russ or artillery platform until you kill at least the majority of the conscripts. They can just screen you. Being able to fall back across models doesn't help if they don't give you any room for your model.
As mentioned above, another neat trick is to infiltrate the Dragoons behind a Conscript blob. On your turn, charge everything at it, being sure to surround it. The Conscripts cannot escape, and assuming the tanks and artillery aren't Valhallan (they will probably be Tallarn or Catachan), they can't shoot your Knights or Dragoons. The next turn, the Knights can walk through the blobs and now they're in the back line.
Send in the Next Wave complicates things, but it costs a ton just to bring back Commissar-less Conscripts.
Fast Attack - 272 4x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance
Total: 1999 points 9 Command Points
Goal is minimum units to go first. Alpha strike the crap out of them and get into melee.
Nice suzuteo. I d change the battalion to Graia. And aux dragoons stygies. You ll have a chance to deny a pshyc power and with same result. I know you wont be able to use mask but seems hard to make it work with an engiseer. You decide. Nice list might need some anti air on knights
Its exactly the opposite. Unf thy just made sure we dont have any option. The extra cp is dominus yes. And not worth it. But still you ll need the rangers to footslog obj. Why not. I know engineseers could inflitrate in potiions to heal knights or mask dragoons. But from the little experience we got engiseer on crusader is the only possible strat and thats because you ll keeo a knight shooter to protct the back field deep strikes etc obj. Thats that . Else your enginseers will just die.
Feel free to try the msk but... you ll spend cp .
Maybe if you got tpd snipers and guard with 2 knights more versatile ...
Still making knight list on its own ensure that any list not antitank heavy has an issue by default thats one.
The gems will help with the rest. Seems good enough.
How do you guys think, is it good idea to blind shoot and buy 30k stuff right now? I have good offer to buy much cheaper right now, but i don't wan't to be stuck with models for years.
1. „Stab the shoty, shot the staby”
2. „Who bails, fails.”
3. „Act to win yourself and not for your opponent to lose.”
4. „If in dilemma between damage and durability, chose third- speed.”
5. „Focus fire.”
I have a pure admech list and I'm just wondering what I could do to counter a wraithknight? I've got the 7ed start collecting plus cawl, a dragoon and dakkatelans. I'm just wanting some general tips and advice.
Suzuteo wrote: It's a dominant strategy. Kill all the tanks and artillery. Then focus all efforts on killing the Conscripts. Goal is to table them. Don't even bother with objectives. You flat out won't win that race.
Okay but again, how? You won't ever reach melee range with a Russ or artillery platform until you kill at least the majority of the conscripts. They can just screen you. Being able to fall back across models doesn't help if they don't give you any room for your model.
As mentioned above, another neat trick is to infiltrate the Dragoons behind a Conscript blob. On your turn, charge everything at it, being sure to surround it. The Conscripts cannot escape, and assuming the tanks and artillery aren't Valhallan (they will probably be Tallarn or Catachan), they can't shoot your Knights or Dragoons. The next turn, the Knights can walk through the blobs and now they're in the back line.
Send in the Next Wave complicates things, but it costs a ton just to bring back Commissar-less Conscripts.
But in any competive setting they are spread so you cant deepstrike behind them. 30 scripts and reallt spread out, then all the tanks behind them spaced out evenly to never allow you within 9 inches of their backs
kastelen wrote: I have a pure admech list and I'm just wondering what I could do to counter a wraithknight? I've got the 7ed start collecting plus cawl, a dragoon and dakkatelans. I'm just wanting some general tips and advice.
I mean a wraithknight is just a big vehicle, and AdMech are great against vehicles.
Remember there's a relic which allows you to pick a vehicle and get +1 to wound against it. Would synergise extremely well with things that do a mortal wound on 6s.
I'd say your key units are...
- Kastelans with Wrath of Mars. S6 hits will only wound on a 5, but 6s will cause mortal wounds. 3 or 4 Kastelans will kill a Wraithknight in a couple of turns if you focus it.
- Belisarius Cawl's Solar Atomiser and Arc Scourge if you can get close enough. 12" range is the problem here!
- Breachers with Torsion Cannons are very strong against vehicles (although people rarely take them in lists!).
- Neutron Onagers
- Icarus Onagers with the Protector Doctrina so it hits on 2s.
- You don't have any but Fugurites will do work... take 10 and you'd expect 1-2 mortal wounds on the charge then about 3d3 mortal wounds in conbat. Plus the normal saveable wounds of course.
What's important with a wraithknight is to remember that they degrade after they lose 12 wounds... and that drop off is significant. Once they are down to 6 wounds you can sort of ignore them.
TO of Death Before Dishonour - A Warhammer 40k Tournament with a focus on great battles between well painted, thematic armies on tables with full terrain.
kastelen wrote: I have a pure admech list and I'm just wondering what I could do to counter a wraithknight? I've got the 7ed start collecting plus cawl, a dragoon and dakkatelans. I'm just wanting some general tips and advice.
I mean a wraithknight is just a big vehicle, and AdMech are great against vehicles.
Remember there's a relic which allows you to pick a vehicle and get +1 to wound against it. Would synergise extremely well with things that do a mortal wound on 6s.
I'd say your key units are...
- Kastelans with Wrath of Mars. S6 hits will only wound on a 5, but 6s will cause mortal wounds. 3 or 4 Kastelans will kill a Wraithknight in a couple of turns if you focus it.
- Belisarius Cawl's Solar Atomiser and Arc Scourge if you can get close enough. 12" range is the problem here!
- Breachers with Torsion Cannons are very strong against vehicles (although people rarely take them in lists!).
- Neutron Onagers
- Icarus Onagers with the Protector Doctrina so it hits on 2s.
- You don't have any but Fugurites will do work... take 10 and you'd expect 1-2 mortal wounds on the charge then about 3d3 mortal wounds in conbat. Plus the normal saveable wounds of course.
What's important with a wraithknight is to remember that they degrade after they lose 12 wounds... and that drop off is significant. Once they are down to 6 wounds you can sort of ignore them.
Which relic are you talking about to gain +1 to Wound Vehicles ? The only relic close to your description is the Agripinaa one, and it's rerolls of 1 to Wound against a chosen vehicle, not a +1 to Wound. I'd love a +1 to Wound honestly.
Neutron Onagers are the best anti super-heavy we have, so with at least two and the right synergies in your list building (and right use of stratagems) you could easily kill one rather quickly, or at least wound it enough that it becomes less dangerous. I wouldn't recommend using anything that doesn't wound on a minimum of 4+, but given the Wrath of Mars stratagem the sheer amount of shots will suffice to cripple it easily enough.
But in any competive setting they are spread so you cant deepstrike behind them. 30 scripts and reallt spread out, then all the tanks behind them spaced out evenly to never allow you within 9 inches of their backs
Actually, I realize what you mean now. Let me think on it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If they block the entire backline, you pretty much just have to come in from the front. TC Crusader might actually be ideal because Conscripts can deny you ground to stand. Looking for areas to charge where the Conscripts cannot fall back is essential to protect your Knights from being attacked.
But yeah, it's annoying.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/10/03 18:34:33
Units of 3 Lascannon Balistarii - Deep Striking on T1 thanks to Lucius, and hitting on 2+ with the general Strategm.
2 CP to ensure you can get 6 almost autohit Lascannons without worrying about losing your glass cannons before they can get the shots off, you're looking at what? 1-2 dead Leman Russes straight off the bat?
If you want to completely win the armour war, pack 2 squads - I really don't know what could survive that kind of fire power
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/03 19:47:30
MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote: Units of 3 Lascannon Balistarii - Deep Striking on T1 thanks to Lucius, and hitting on 2+ with the general Strategm.
2 CP to ensure you can get 6 almost autohit Lascannons without worrying about losing your glass cannons before they can get the shots off, you're looking at what? 1-2 dead Leman Russes straight off the bat?
If you want to completely win the armour war, pack 2 squads - I really don't know what could survive that kind of fire power
Magnus, a Leman Russ character with an Ogryn bodyguard, Mortarion with Deathshroud Terminators, an Imperial Knight.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm looking to start buying admech in prep for Cyraxus. Do you guys think Thallax and Ursarax will be in the book?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/03 20:35:40
I wouldn't start planning on it. It could be a year away, or two, or it could never come out.
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MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote: Units of 3 Lascannon Balistarii - Deep Striking on T1 thanks to Lucius, and hitting on 2+ with the general Strategm.
2 CP to ensure you can get 6 almost autohit Lascannons without worrying about losing your glass cannons before they can get the shots off, you're looking at what? 1-2 dead Leman Russes straight off the bat?
If you want to completely win the armour war, pack 2 squads - I really don't know what could survive that kind of fire power
Magnus, a Leman Russ character with an Ogryn bodyguard, Mortarion with Deathshroud Terminators, an Imperial Knight.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm looking to start buying admech in prep for Cyraxus. Do you guys think Thallax and Ursarax will be in the book?
Not sure of the stats of Magnus or Mortarion, but 2 squads of 3 Balistarii are going to average around 18 wounds assuming a 5+ invunrable save - 27 wounds if not. Albative shields nonwithstanding (in which case they're hanging back with infantry instead of flying down the board at your army) - that's going to be taking big things off the board.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/03 23:21:16
MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote: Units of 3 Lascannon Balistarii - Deep Striking on T1 thanks to Lucius, and hitting on 2+ with the general Strategm.
2 CP to ensure you can get 6 almost autohit Lascannons without worrying about losing your glass cannons before they can get the shots off, you're looking at what? 1-2 dead Leman Russes straight off the bat?
If you want to completely win the armour war, pack 2 squads - I really don't know what could survive that kind of fire power
Magnus, a Leman Russ character with an Ogryn bodyguard, Mortarion with Deathshroud Terminators, an Imperial Knight.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm looking to start buying admech in prep for Cyraxus. Do you guys think Thallax and Ursarax will be in the book?
Not sure of the stats of Magnus or Mortarion, but 2 squads of 3 Balistarii are going to average around 18 wounds assuming a 5+ invunrable save - 27 wounds if not. Albative shields nonwithstanding (in which case they're hanging back with infantry instead of flying down the board at your army) - that's going to be taking big things off the board.
Magnus: 4++ if he fails his psychic power (that's not going to happen often), 3++ reroll 1s if he succeeds with a 6+++.
Morty: I think he's a 4++ with a 4+++ or a 5+++
You might also have trouble dealing with a baneblade... that one I'm not sure about.
I highly recommend you bring as much mortal wound generation as possible to deal with the strongest 40k threats. Lascannons can't deal with strong invuln saves or high model counts.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/03 23:27:53
MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote: Units of 3 Lascannon Balistarii - Deep Striking on T1 thanks to Lucius, and hitting on 2+ with the general Strategm.
2 CP to ensure you can get 6 almost autohit Lascannons without worrying about losing your glass cannons before they can get the shots off, you're looking at what? 1-2 dead Leman Russes straight off the bat?
If you want to completely win the armour war, pack 2 squads - I really don't know what could survive that kind of fire power
Magnus, a Leman Russ character with an Ogryn bodyguard, Mortarion with Deathshroud Terminators, an Imperial Knight.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm looking to start buying admech in prep for Cyraxus. Do you guys think Thallax and Ursarax will be in the book?
Not sure of the stats of Magnus or Mortarion, but 2 squads of 3 Balistarii are going to average around 18 wounds assuming a 5+ invunrable save - 27 wounds if not. Albative shields nonwithstanding (in which case they're hanging back with infantry instead of flying down the board at your army) - that's going to be taking big things off the board.
Magnus: 4++ if he fails his psychic power (that's not going to happen often), 3++ reroll 1s if he succeeds with a 6+++.
Morty: I think he's a 4++ with a 4+++ or a 5+++
You might also have trouble dealing with a baneblade... that one I'm not sure about.
I highly recommend you bring as much mortal wound generation as possible to deal with the strongest 40k threats. Lascannons can't deal with strong invuln saves or high model counts.
MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote: Units of 3 Lascannon Balistarii - Deep Striking on T1 thanks to Lucius, and hitting on 2+ with the general Strategm.
2 CP to ensure you can get 6 almost autohit Lascannons without worrying about losing your glass cannons before they can get the shots off, you're looking at what? 1-2 dead Leman Russes straight off the bat?
If you want to completely win the armour war, pack 2 squads - I really don't know what could survive that kind of fire power
Magnus, a Leman Russ character with an Ogryn bodyguard, Mortarion with Deathshroud Terminators, an Imperial Knight.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm looking to start buying admech in prep for Cyraxus. Do you guys think Thallax and Ursarax will be in the book?
Not sure of the stats of Magnus or Mortarion, but 2 squads of 3 Balistarii are going to average around 18 wounds assuming a 5+ invunrable save - 27 wounds if not. Albative shields nonwithstanding (in which case they're hanging back with infantry instead of flying down the board at your army) - that's going to be taking big things off the board.
Magnus: 4++ if he fails his psychic power (that's not going to happen often), 3++ reroll 1s if he succeeds with a 6+++.
Morty: I think he's a 4++ with a 4+++ or a 5+++
You might also have trouble dealing with a baneblade... that one I'm not sure about.
I highly recommend you bring as much mortal wound generation as possible to deal with the strongest 40k threats. Lascannons can't deal with strong invuln saves or high model counts.
Wow thoes are horrible stats.. so Mars or bust?
Stay strong and wait for Cyraxus... or an FAQ of some kind. In the meanwhile, see what I wrote below.
I did some math-hammer, guys, and I made some interesting observations that you may want to check out:
- If you take a 10-man squad of rusties, use the +1 to hit rolls in melee stratagem, and use the reroll 1's to hit canticle, you can generate a TON of mortal wounds. Good way to counter-assault a Daemon Primarch/Greater Daemon/Daemon Prince. I recommend taking them base with chordclaw/transonic razor for point efficiency. You're looking at about 4-8 total wounds to Magnus at his peak efficiency. That's actually really good. (200 points for a 10-man rusty squad)
- People have already done the math on dragoons, and we know they generate a TON of hits. But I found that they are REALLY good at busting through invuln saves as well. Consider running these guys into a weakened Magnus/Morty as well. 4 Dragoons will do 5-9 wounds total to Magnus at his peak efficiency when they have the +2 to hit rolls and the reroll 1's canticle.
Overall, I think the strongest part of our codex is point-efficient access to weapons that basically don't give a feth about invuln saves.
+ Multiple sources of mortal wounds (dakkastelans with WoM, corpuscarii with WoM, fulgurites, rusties)
+ Multiple sources of exploding hit rolls (infiltrators, dragoons, corpuscarii)
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/10/04 04:29:44
MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote: Units of 3 Lascannon Balistarii - Deep Striking on T1 thanks to Lucius, and hitting on 2+ with the general Strategm.
2 CP to ensure you can get 6 almost autohit Lascannons without worrying about losing your glass cannons before they can get the shots off, you're looking at what? 1-2 dead Leman Russes straight off the bat?
If you want to completely win the armour war, pack 2 squads - I really don't know what could survive that kind of fire power
My Scabreiathrax takes about 1/3 of a wound per lascannon shot. T9, 4++, 5+++, 22W, and the heal 1d3W Nurgle Power. He rightly ignores such squads. In light of similar threats,I agree with exploding hits and mortal wound generation as a great answer. My AdMech seems to be growing in that direction of late.
Yeah I am super down on ballistari right now. Units of them can get the +2 to hit strategem, which is nice for hitting aircraft. But overall I think dragoons do more for the army and can put out comparable damage.
Wulfey wrote: Yeah I am super down on ballistari right now. Units of them can get the +2 to hit strategem, which is nice for hitting aircraft. But overall I think dragoons do more for the army and can put out comparable damage.
They can be used as cheaper heavy weapons platforms though so there's that.
