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 Azreal13 wrote:

Edit:
Also note I was explicitly not talking about PMs in my post about converting spawn, so that's largely an assumption on your part, the thread isn't about the Death Guard release but monopose GW models in general. Let me also draw a line between 20 Marines or 50 Guardsmen that are supposed to look largely identical, and Dave the Plague Marine, who's supposed to be representative of a force of highly individual soldiers, appearing 3 or 4 times across a couple of units complete with Nurgle Sanctioned Tentacle Mutation A™.


A. The Crypt Horrors kit was released over three years ago. Also, surprise, in a box with three models there are three basic poses.

B. This thread's OP is explicitly about the Death Guard release and what that might mean for future GW products.

C. The main arguments presented here against the type of models involved in the DG release is that they're harder to personalize than normal multipose troop models such as TAC marines, while you're admitting that the opposite is true and they are in fact more individual.

So again, what exactly are you talking about? Where is the fully articulated kit GW released in the past that makes you feel like they're suddenly making a drastic turn for the worse?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Azreal13 wrote:
It my opinion dude, one I feel I've actually gone to some lengths to explain the thinking behind. I don't have a standard because I'm not obligated to provide evidentiary support to draw a precise line in the sand over.

I do not like monopose kits as much as multipose kits. I do not like feeling like I'm assembling something rather than creating something, even if the end result looks largely similar. I do not like repeated sculpts in units or armies. Not one, let alone several. Let alone multiple instances of Dave the Plague Marine or Johnny Deathshroud. Even if the differences are minute, if I've chosen how the parts are put together I can at least feel they're different and derive more satisfaction from that. I do not like that monopose kits often have highly specific contact points which make kit bashing more involved, if not occasionally impossible.

Now, even if you don't agree with that, it surely isn't hard to understand?


You are of course entitled to your opinions and your preferences, and if you prefer multipose kits on a personal level then I certainly can't fault you for it. It is a bit different to extrapolate that into general statements about the state of the hobby, however. I will never tell someone they're wrong for their tastes. If you just tell me that you personally prefer something for one subjective reason or another, as you've just done, I will not try to change your mind or argue. There were a lot of demonstrable falsehoods and opinions being presented as fact (as usual) going around in this thread, though, and I felt compelled to respond to that. Note that I don't mean you specifically. The only thing I ask, which I know no one owes to me, is that one begins from the point of presenting their personal taste and opinions as exactly that.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/11 00:34:05


 
   
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/11 00:39:07


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I wouldn't mind monoposed plastic rank and file if 40k didn't require so many miniatures. With bigger numbers the repeated poses starts becoming more noticeable. A rotation in the hip, however minor, and a slight varation on how high a bolter guy is holding his gun can make all the difference.

Maybe if GW released more sprues with different poses?? Like a Death Guard Plague Marine Kit A, Kit B or whatever. Or like a Death Guard Veterans kit.

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 Kaiyanwang wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 MagicJuggler wrote:
If I wanted to play a game where units had no loadout or personalization options, I would play Warmachine. Monopose=not buying.
Loadout options is a different issue to monopose. You can have a monopose model with weapon options.

For units that's true, but for characters, we are seeing that he is right and he will be more and more right in the future, I am afraid.


GW have never been big on multipose and multi-optioned character models. Characters were metal and monopose, there was a small window where we got some plastic multipose and multi optioned kits, then they started going back to single pose with single load out.

The few multipose and multi optioned kits have been few and often unimpressive models. Like the WHFB Orc Warboss, nice kit as far as options go but mediocre as far as making a nice looking Warboss was concerned... I ended up using my plastic multipose Warboss for parts to convert a monopose 40k Warboss instead


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Tannhauser42 wrote:
 Luciferian wrote:

Make no mistake, in a box like the SM Terminators shown above, there are only two poses. One for the Sergeant, and one for everyone else. Rotate their hips as much as you want; it will never hide the fact that all of their other joints are positioned identically.



Yep. Many of GW's minis are about as poseable as Rock'em-Sock'em-Robots. The arms can go up or down (assuming they're not both connected to one weapon), and the head and torso can swivel a bit, and that's about it. It wasn't until I built a Dreamforge Leviathan that I knew what "poseable" could really mean. And I bet all of the Japanese hobbyists are probably giggling at this whole thread.
When you have kits that are robots then your level of poseability just comes down to how much effort you're willing to put in to designing the kit.

But when it comes to models that have clothes/muscle/skin that need to flow it starts to get difficult to create multipose kits that still look natural.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/11 01:09:47


 
   
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The Space Marine captain is a multi-pose character kit that looks quite nice. As does the Empire Generals and Wizards kit.

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 TheCustomLime wrote:
The Space Marine captain is a multi-pose character kit that looks quite nice. As does the Empire Generals and Wizards kit.
I'd argue the Space Marine captain is a model that did look nice but hasn't aged well. Aesthetically I rank it well below many of the monopose models that came before it and well below the ones that have come after it. It was well optioned but the actual poses were limited and uninteresting. I can spot the Captain legs, torso and distinctive sword arm a mile away

The Empire general kit I'm not as familiar with, but if it's the one I'm thinking of I'd describe it as "eh, it's okay". Nice options but it looks more static and boring and less detailed than many of the GW metal characters dating back to the early 90's.
   
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With some kitbashing you can still get some mileage out of it. A recut to make him stand up a bit straighter and maybe give more variety in his melee weapon arms would be nice. But, since GW seems to have gone full ham on the somewhat taller Space Marines...


For the record I don't have an issue with monopose characters. I just wish they had some variety. The CSM Terminator lord kit is a great example. Generally speaking he's locked into one pose but you can get a lot of mileage out of him. Then you have the Primaris Space Marine captain... oof or the Death Guard SC kits. Alternate sculpts would be nice too. GW could fill it's online catalog with a bunch of alternate plastic monopose character kits. They seem to have the resources to make fire and forget HIPS kits, anyway.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/11 01:34:50


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AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 TheCustomLime wrote:
The Space Marine captain is a multi-pose character kit that looks quite nice. As does the Empire Generals and Wizards kit.
I'd argue the Space Marine captain is a model that did look nice but hasn't aged well. Aesthetically I rank it well below many of the monopose models that came before it and well below the ones that have come after it. It was well optioned but the actual poses were limited and uninteresting. I can spot the Captain legs, torso and distinctive sword arm a mile away

The Empire general kit I'm not as familiar with, but if it's the one I'm thinking of I'd describe it as "eh, it's okay". Nice options but it looks more static and boring and less detailed than many of the GW metal characters dating back to the early 90's.


Even as much as I love the Empire General, the Wizard, and the Warboss Kits, you are right.

You can have this
Spoiler:


Or you can have this:
Spoiler:

or this:
Spoiler:


I think the reason DG are so limited in possability is because their aesthetic needs. All the clothes, all the chainmal, etc... you can't have that freedom to pose them as you like and have them looking nice. The problem with the Blightlords aren't the poses. The Putrid Blighkings too have only 5 legs, and they have fixed poses, but they have a TON of customization and variety in the guys, every basic pose can have two variations (So 10 beautifull and natural poses) + all the variety and freedom that heads and arms allow you. Blighlords lack that variety, that customization.
Blighkings are the best of both worls. The natural and great looking poses of monoposes kits, with all the freedom and variation capabilities of Multi pose kits.

I can have 20 Blighkings, with 5 groups of 4 having the same legs, and I can make them totally different looking ones with the others. With the Blighlords, I can't.
But thats not because Blightkings are multi pose and Blightlords are monopose. Both are monopose. Blighkings are just a superior kit. Thats it. Not every kit are made equal, even if they are priced equal.

Both kits cost 45€, but the Putrid Blighkings one is just superior.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/11 01:55:12


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

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 TheCustomLime wrote:
The Space Marine captain is a multi-pose character kit that looks quite nice. As does the Empire Generals and Wizards kit.
I wish they'd continued those.

I was quite the champion for the single-frame character models when GW started doing them. They were a way to get lots of characters out quickly and cheaply* as a replacement for FineCost, fill in gaps, and generally allow more of a transition to 100% plastic armies. They were, and are, a fantastic idea.

The problem is however that this went too far, and we started losing something as a result. Now GW only makes rules for the model, meaning that the options (if there are any, which is rare) on the plastic kit become all that that model can get. Or there are no more modelling options when the older rules do have some.

There's only one Commissar model now. When the Commissars in 2nd Ed came out they put 3 out, in different poses with different weapons. I'm certain GW can do a few extra weapon options on a sprue. They don't have to go back to the great kits like the Warhammer character kits (that Wizard one is incredible), but they have to be a bit more than mono-pose, mono-option, for AUD$60.


*And they really were cheap. Compare the original costs of the Chaos Sorcerer or the Tzeentch Sorcerer to modern day character plastics.

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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 TheCustomLime wrote:
The Space Marine captain is a multi-pose character kit that looks quite nice. As does the Empire Generals and Wizards kit.
I wish they'd continued those.

I was quite the champion for the single-frame character models when GW started doing them. They were a way to get lots of characters out quickly and cheaply* as a replacement for FineCost, fill in gaps, and generally allow more of a transition to 100% plastic armies. They were, and are, a fantastic idea.


There's only one Commissar model now.


Yeah, the plastic-monopose heroes where very nicely priced:

https://www.games-workshop.com/es-ES/Saurio-Viejaestirpe
https://www.games-workshop.com/es-ES/Chaos-Sorcerer-Lord-2016
https://www.games-workshop.com/es-ES/Hechicera-Elfa-Oscura
EDIT: Wop, I put them in €. That would be basically something like 14$ a piece.

And a way to add variety to your heroes and poses. But yeah, now that instead of making the plastic heroes as a "supplement" to the generic HQ with many weapons, they are limiting the weapons to those plastic HQ's with 0 options... meh


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/11 02:04:15


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
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Alright, so there's an ancient metal Commissar floating about.

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When the plastic commissar first hit the rumour mill I bought all the old metal ones. They're some of my favourite models and the plastic one looks like junk in comparison, at least IMO.

But this is one of the disadvantages of plastics for characters. GW do seem like they can pump out a decent number of plastic kits these days, but you can't really match the range that you'd get with metal models. It's always going to cost more up front to put a plastic model in to production than a metal one.
   
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I'm a big fan of monopose miniatures...as I don't think it detracts from the game - with one minor exception. When doing monopose miniatures they need to be toned down slightly, and you want to avoid big noticeable silliness.

My buddy runs Steel Legion guard. Great minis, some of the best guard they've ever done. Plenty of variety with (gasp) more natural poses than you'd ever get from Cadians. However he has 3-4 of the "holding an Ork head" sergeants. He'll probably be chopping off hands, because any really identifiable different model is the one you'll notice way too much. He does have two other NCO/officer versions as well though.

I feel the same about a lot of the Death Guard - if they were a little less individualistic you wouldn't notice so much. The fly-Terminator etc. will stand out if you have several of them, etc.
   
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Yes old Metal marines were monoposed but they had a lot of different space marine models, monopose is not bad if there is a lot of variety in the offered models.

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Different strokes for different folks, I guess. Some people obviously don't mind the limited build options on recent kits. I'm not a fan and probably won't be anytime soon.

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Elbows wrote:I'm a big fan of monopose miniatures...as I don't think it detracts from the game - with one minor exception. When doing monopose miniatures they need to be toned down slightly, and you want to avoid big noticeable silliness.

My buddy runs Steel Legion guard. Great minis, some of the best guard they've ever done. Plenty of variety with (gasp) more natural poses than you'd ever get from Cadians. However he has 3-4 of the "holding an Ork head" sergeants. He'll probably be chopping off hands, because any really identifiable different model is the one you'll notice way too much. He does have two other NCO/officer versions as well though.

I feel the same about a lot of the Death Guard - if they were a little less individualistic you wouldn't notice so much. The fly-Terminator etc. will stand out if you have several of them, etc.
I completely agree with this. Having good monopose characters/troopers but giving them enough options to look distinct even with the same "base model" would probably be the best option. GW already had all kinds of bits but they could use that to camouflage the more distinct features instead of just adding geeble.

In plastic the Steel Legion ork guy could be holding all kinds of things in both hands (left: standard, grenade?, lantern,… right: pistols, other equipment), different heads, and even have arms with slightly different poses and the base model wouldn't look so distinct. Add a few different pouches and the base model could be covered up nicely and reused a few times without being too noticeable. And it wouldn't look like it needs to see a doctor for spinal problems (like some multi-pose models occasionally do).
   
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 Kriswall wrote:
Different strokes for different folks, I guess. Some people obviously don't mind the limited build options on recent kits. I'm not a fan and probably won't be anytime soon.


I like multipose models, actually, but they need to really be multipose models, not like the Tactical Marines I've seen for instance. You need articulated joints - shoulders, elbows, hips, knees, feet, neck - you name it. Because of this, it needs to be heavily armoured or mechanical, otherwise you'd need to sculpt the flesh or clothes around each joint when it's built.

I've built a Wraithlord which was fairly posable, I had to cut one of his knees and resculpt it a bit to be happy with it, and I also reposed the fingers on his left hand a little while I was at it. He has articulated elbows, shoulders, neck, waist, wrists and hips. He should've had articulated knees, I consider that a flaw in the kit.

A Marine kit will never be anywhere near that, and then I'd say don't bother. Better go for good-looking monopose.

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Monopose sucks so much, it kills my interest in having the model.

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 Kaiyanwang wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 MagicJuggler wrote:
If I wanted to play a game where units had no loadout or personalization options, I would play Warmachine. Monopose=not buying.
Loadout options is a different issue to monopose. You can have a monopose model with weapon options.

For units that's true, but for characters, we are seeing that he is right and he will be more and more right in the future, I am afraid.


But weren't nearly all characters already monopose anyway?
   
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morgoth wrote:
 Kaiyanwang wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 MagicJuggler wrote:
If I wanted to play a game where units had no loadout or personalization options, I would play Warmachine. Monopose=not buying.
Loadout options is a different issue to monopose. You can have a monopose model with weapon options.

For units that's true, but for characters, we are seeing that he is right and he will be more and more right in the future, I am afraid.


But weren't nearly all characters already monopose anyway?


Monopose is fine for characters (assume the sculpt is decent) as unless there are multiples of them on the table so it's not usually noticeable

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I'm less interested in posing(since not many poses looks good anyway) and more of how many different combinations I can make. If I have 10 separate different body and legs I can make lot more different combinations than if I have 10 different one piece body/legs. So when I have 50 models I have 5 duplicates of fixed leg/torso while with different torso/leg parts I'm not even close of using all combos!

That's the problem I have with GW's current style. Armies look same and looks worse the bigger they get.

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I hate monopose miniatures. If I couldn't make 100+ ork boyz at least a little bit different from each other I wouldn't even start collecting orks. I've always avoided armies that I actually appreciate how they look overall like necrons and tyranids but without any chance to make infantries look different.

Special characters can be monopose, a whole unit certainly can't have just one built.

 
   
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Monopose was fine back in the day for like regular grunts (think the old 4th/5th WHFB plastic kits with like 8 dudes, or the 2nd edition push-fit Space Marines). Even having torsos as monopose seems to be fine to me; it's mainly heads/arms/shoulders that should be able to be customized (imagine like the old metal bolter Marines from 2nd; the body was one piece, and then you had plastic arms/bolter/shoulderpad). For legit plastic kits though I think the best is like the tactical squad or space wolf kits are; you can cut off all the torsos, legs, arms, heads etc. and then build each guy a little differently, none of this "Model A is made with torso 5 and legs 8 with choice of 4 and 5 or 6 and 7 arms, Model B has torso 23 and legs 14 with choice of 10 and 11 or 12 and 13 arms" kinda stuff which leads to similar looking squads across the board, especially if you take multiples which you need to in 40k. A monopose squad is fine when it's the only one you have, but when you have several with duplicate models, it gets a bit immersion-breaking and IMHO loses a big part of what made 40k models so popular. It was never so much the detail, it was the customization potential.

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I have always been bothered by the way many people use the term mono-pose. Only the characters are mono-pose and even then there is a certain amount of flexibility in how you pose the head and arms of many of the kits. It is true that many of the recent kits have had the body and legs as one piece, but with the death guard I'm not sure this matters much.

As Maxime Pastourel pointed out in the designers notes in the recent white dwarf, the deathguard are famous for plodding forward unrelentingly.
Running poses would be very much out of character for them.
It is clear that in the case of this specific army, GW chose to favour variety of detail over variety of poses.
If you disagree with this choice that's fine but I don't think it says anything about the future of GW.
The redemptor dreadnought is probably gw's most posable kit ever and the upcoming elf bloodbowl team is the most posable one yet.
On top of that everything is plastic which makes conversion possible even for someone of my limited skillset.
I have already seen numerous different poses for Typhus on twitter which change his profile dramatically and none of which required any greenstuffing.
   
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The new models are mono posed, but I'm used to sawing pewter models in half to do what I want. A little plastic is no great hindrance, really. It's a bit of a pain in my arse, since I'm currently building the dreaded Plant Guard (Death Guard over run by plants and moss rather than the usual collection of STDs) but it's not the end of the world.
   
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Wayniac wrote:
Monopose was fine back in the day for like regular grunts (think the old 4th/5th WHFB plastic kits with like 8 dudes, or the 2nd edition push-fit Space Marines). Even having torsos as monopose seems to be fine to me; it's mainly heads/arms/shoulders that should be able to be customized (imagine like the old metal bolter Marines from 2nd; the body was one piece, and then you had plastic arms/bolter/shoulderpad).
It's pretty absurd to compare something like the push fit marines from 2nd edition to the current batch of monopose models. The monopose plastics back then sucked; even for back then they sucked because they were plain, boring, unnatural poses when you COULD instead buy nicely posed metals.

For example the 2nd edition plastic monopose plague marines looked like crap even next to the 1st edition (rogue trader) era metal Nurgle marines.

Monopose is fine now, not just back in the day, because monopose now typically means the model is better posed than the multipose equivalent.
   
 
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