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 master of ordinance wrote:
If you want to balance hordes do the simple thing and bring back templates. Large blasts, Small blasts, Apocalyptic blasts, Flame templates.
Suddenly hordes are dying left and right or so spread out they cannot bring any effective weight of fire to bare on any targets.

Well the idea here is to bring back the power of templates, without the complexity and time sync that is associated with the templates themselves.

Darkagl1 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
If you want to balance hordes do the simple thing and bring back templates. Large blasts, Small blasts, Apocalyptic blasts, Flame templates.
effective weight of fire to bare on any targets.

Well the idea here is to bring back the power of templates, without the complexity and time sync that is associated with the templates themselves.

As in all things, 'do what titans do' which is for anti infantry blast weapons, each hit vs infantry is multiplied by X where X is suitable for the weapon's cost. 2x for, say a whirlwind is entirely reasonable.

 malamis wrote:

Darkagl1 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
If you want to balance hordes do the simple thing and bring back templates. Large blasts, Small blasts, Apocalyptic blasts, Flame templates.
effective weight of fire to bare on any targets.

Well the idea here is to bring back the power of templates, without the complexity and time sync that is associated with the templates themselves.

As in all things, 'do what titans do' which is for anti infantry blast weapons, each hit vs infantry is multiplied by X where X is suitable for the weapon's cost. 2x for, say a whirlwind is entirely reasonable.

Except that punishes elite infantry (Say, Custodian Guard, or singular infantry models like Apothecaries) just as hard as conscripts.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 malamis wrote:

Darkagl1 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
If you want to balance hordes do the simple thing and bring back templates. Large blasts, Small blasts, Apocalyptic blasts, Flame templates.
effective weight of fire to bare on any targets.

Well the idea here is to bring back the power of templates, without the complexity and time sync that is associated with the templates themselves.

As in all things, 'do what titans do' which is for anti infantry blast weapons, each hit vs infantry is multiplied by X where X is suitable for the weapon's cost. 2x for, say a whirlwind is entirely reasonable.

Except that punishes elite infantry (Say, Custodian Guard, or singular infantry models like Apothecaries) just as hard as conscripts.

Exactly, unless it was only applied to something that was particularly suited to hordes, so like throwing that on are 2 ap0 multishot gun. But there it doesn't seem like it really helps since you could do more shots just straight off.

I actually want to doublecheck the math on S2 AP0 weapons.

Against GEQs:
Each hit does .33 wounds, with a 5+ save, for .22 wounds dealt per hit.

Against MEQs:
Each hit does .17 wounds, with a 3+ save, for .06 wounds dealt per hit.

Against TEQs:
Each hit does .17 wounds, with a 2+ save, for .03 wounds per hit.

Assuming points costs of 4, 13, and 35, each hit scores .88 points against GEQs, .78 against MEQs, and 1.05 against TEQs.

Slightly more efficient at GEQs than MEQs, but is best against TEQs.

And the issue is, it's literally JUST AS EFFECTIVE against a Terminator as it is a Land Raider.

I've proposed this before, I'll propose it again:
'Template' weapons replace the random roll with a maximum number of hits. They automatically hit every enemy model in range in the target unit, up to that maximum number.
In overwatch, this can be replaced by a 'Wall of death' ability where they get a random number. (D3 for Hand Flamers, D6 for most Flamer-types, etc.)

Additionally, weapons with a Special Rule that functions like old AP could be really effective, in my opinion. Weapons which would completely bypass armor (Like the Shokk Attack Gun) don't need 'AP-5', they need 'Armor saves cannot be taken against this weapon'. Weapons specifically designed to deal with light infantry but that can't really do diddly against heavy armor need 'Armor saves of 5+ or 6+ cannot be taken against this weapon'.'
It shouldn't be the norm, but weapons like that SHOULD exist to some extent.

I agree that flamers and weapons that used to have the blast or large blast special rule in 7th should be a bit improved.

But then other anti infantry tools that are currently overpowered should be nerfed like stormbolters and twin assault cannons, both way undercosted. Also stormravens and land raider crusaders are other amazing anti infantry tools and should cost more.

Balancing against hordes shouldn't mean "deleting hordes easily with any TAC list"

IMHO hordes are currently underpowered. The 8th superstars are some named superheroes and the possibility of bringing soups, certainly not hordes.

Stormbolters and twin asscannons are NOT undercosted when you consider the platforms. Marines are currently overcosted in general.

 Blackie wrote:
I agree that flamers and weapons that used to have the blast or large blast special rule in 7th should be a bit improved.

But then other anti infantry tools that are currently overpowered should be nerfed like stormbolters and twin assault cannons, both way undercosted. Also stormravens and land raider crusaders are other amazing anti infantry tools and should cost more.

Balancing against hordes shouldn't mean "deleting hordes easily with any TAC list"

IMHO hordes are currently underpowered. The 8th superstars are some named superheroes and the possibility of bringing soups, certainly not hordes.

Stormbolters aren't overcosted. I can't argue Asscannons because I haven't used them, but Storm Bolters definitely aren't.
One Stormbolter has enough firepower to kill slightly above one Guardsman, IF you fire it in rapid fire range. If you nerfed them (presumably with a price bump, since there's no other way to really nerf them without making them Assault 2 again, which would absolutely suck,) they would become absolutely useless for their cost.

Consider their cheapest reasonable platform - Dominions. For 60 points, you have a reasonable chance of getting 5 Storm Bolters into Rapid Fire range. That means, for 60 points, you are killing 15pts of Conscripts or 20pts of Guardsmen every turn. That is still TERRIBLE, despite Storm Bolters being some of the best anti infantry available to Sisters and Marines.

Being the best doesn't mean that it's actually good.

Have you guyz proposing to nerf hordes back into oblivion even played hordes yourselves?
Maybe you should swap an army with your local ork player once before jumping to conclusions?

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
I agree that flamers and weapons that used to have the blast or large blast special rule in 7th should be a bit improved.

But then other anti infantry tools that are currently overpowered should be nerfed like stormbolters and twin assault cannons, both way undercosted. Also stormravens and land raider crusaders are other amazing anti infantry tools and should cost more.

Balancing against hordes shouldn't mean "deleting hordes easily with any TAC list"

IMHO hordes are currently underpowered. The 8th superstars are some named superheroes and the possibility of bringing soups, certainly not hordes.

Stormbolters aren't overcosted. I can't argue Asscannons because I haven't used them, but Storm Bolters definitely aren't.
One Stormbolter has enough firepower to kill slightly above one Guardsman, IF you fire it in rapid fire range. If you nerfed them (presumably with a price bump, since there's no other way to really nerf them without making them Assault 2 again, which would absolutely suck,) they would become absolutely useless for their cost.

Consider their cheapest reasonable platform - Dominions. For 60 points, you have a reasonable chance of getting 5 Storm Bolters into Rapid Fire range. That means, for 60 points, you are killing 15pts of Conscripts or 20pts of Guardsmen every turn. That is still TERRIBLE, despite Storm Bolters being some of the best anti infantry available to Sisters and Marines.

Being the best doesn't mean that it's actually good.

A comparison with AM stuff is always wrong, as AM stuff (the most common units at least) are way overpowered. Compare the result against other armies. 2 points for 4 shots in rapid fire range equipped in units that hit on 2s or 3s are not fair. Orks pay 4 points for a stormbolter equivalent, while being BS5+.

I'd take stormbolters everywhere I can stick them, like I currently do with my SW, even if they were 4 pts each.

 JNAProductions wrote:
I actually want to doublecheck the math on S2 AP0 weapons.

Against GEQs:
Each hit does .33 wounds, with a 5+ save, for .22 wounds dealt per hit.

Against MEQs:
Each hit does .17 wounds, with a 3+ save, for .06 wounds dealt per hit.

Against TEQs:
Each hit does .17 wounds, with a 2+ save, for .03 wounds per hit.

Assuming points costs of 4, 13, and 35, each hit scores .88 points against GEQs, .78 against MEQs, and 1.05 against TEQs.

Slightly more efficient at GEQs than MEQs, but is best against TEQs.

And the issue is, it's literally JUST AS EFFECTIVE against a Terminator as it is a Land Raider.

Which is why you give it more shots against larger units. Land Raiders are always a single unit.

That said to kill a terminator you are looking at needing 71 hits, to kill a marine 17 hits, against a geq 4.5 hits. So you will kill 15.77 guardsman for every terminator (remember they are 2 wounds). So 15.77 * 4 = 63 points. Almost the cost of 2 35 point terminators. Even 3 point conscripts would be 47.31 points or the cost of 1.35 terminators.

Compare this to S3 AP 0, 35 shots to kill a terminator, 9 to kill a marine, 3 to kill a GEQ. So you kill 11.7 GEQ for every terminator, or ~36 points of conscripts so essentially 1 terminator.

As for the land raider being the same durability as a terminator sure. It takes 571 hits to hill said land raider from a S2 AP 0 weapon, So 857 shots if they are hitting on 3s. If you made said weapon improve against more models, and not have a ton of shots against a land raider it would be literally useless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:
Have you guyz proposing to nerf hordes back into oblivion even played hordes yourselves?
Maybe you should swap an army with your local ork player once before jumping to conclusions?

I play orks, I'm not suggesting that anti-horde weapons should be cheap, or plentiful but they should exist, it allows for much more balanced lists to exist. The current game design heavily favors single wound models over those with multiple wounds as far as durability goes.

Fair point re better vs terminators;

Alternative option; if a model is killed by a 'blast weapon' then an additional wound doing 1 damage and no ap is inflicted on the unit. Means a true 'blast' isn't contained by squishy bodies, but harder armour (and more expensive models) contain the shrapnel/etc from affecting the other members of the unit.

 koooaei wrote:
Have you guyz proposing to nerf hordes back into oblivion even played hordes yourselves?
Maybe you should swap an army with your local ork player once before jumping to conclusions?

I have. Again this isn't only sitting here saying omg all hordes are currently overpowered. It's there's a lack of a balancing mechanism for hordes that I think leaves them prone to either being overpowered OR underpowered, because without an appropriate counter they tend to either be overcosted if general anti infantry is enough against them or undercosted if it isn't.

Random aside did anyone else notice that ork list I was talking about top 3d an itc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:
I agree that flamers and weapons that used to have the blast or large blast special rule in 7th should be a bit improved.

But then other anti infantry tools that are currently overpowered should be nerfed like stormbolters and twin assault cannons, both way undercosted. Also stormravens and land raider crusaders are other amazing anti infantry tools and should cost more.

Balancing against hordes shouldn't mean "deleting hordes easily with any TAC list"

IMHO hordes are currently underpowered. The 8th superstars are some named superheroes and the possibility of bringing soups, certainly not hordes.

I'm not sure sttorm bolters/assault cannons are undercosted right now. Part of what makes that difficult is the d ifferencxe between a SoB storm bolter and a terminator one. The SoB one could easily be too aggressively tuned because the platform is so cheap (see scion/elysian plasma). Otoh terminator storm bolters are almost certainly ok.

Ah, woops, I did indeed forget that Termis are 2 wounds.

Darkagl1 wrote:


I'm not sure sttorm bolters/assault cannons are undercosted right now. Part of what makes that difficult is the d ifferencxe between a SoB storm bolter and a terminator one. The SoB one could easily be too aggressively tuned because the platform is so cheap (see scion/elysian plasma). Otoh terminator storm bolters are almost certainly ok.

On terminators they seem ok because terminators are a bit overcosted and because they're way better with different wargear. But as a SW player I can stick 2 points stormbolters everywhere, and I usually do: on rhinos/razorbacks, on wolf guards of any kind (the bikers could throw EIGHT shots in rapid fire range this way) not only terminators, on pack leaders and characters. Some twin ass cannons and several stormbolters are basically auto-take options now in any SM army.

 Blackie wrote:

Darkagl1 wrote:


I'm not sure sttorm bolters/assault cannons are undercosted right now. Part of what makes that difficult is the d ifferencxe between a SoB storm bolter and a terminator one. The SoB one could easily be too aggressively tuned because the platform is so cheap (see scion/elysian plasma). Otoh terminator storm bolters are almost certainly ok.

On terminators they seem ok because terminators are a bit overcosted and because they're way better with different wargear. But as a SW player I can stick 2 points stormbolters everywhere, and I usually do: on rhinos/razorbacks, on wolf guards of any kind (the bikers could throw EIGHT shots in rapid fire range this way) not only terminators, on pack leaders and characters. Some twin ass cannons and several stormbolters are basically auto-take options now in any SM army.

Tbh I'm not sure how bad a sprinkling of extra storm bolters on characters and sarges is. Maybe it's super powerful, but it doesn't seem like it's that bad. That said I really haven't experienced someone really cramming them into a list.

Well if you have 1-2 stormbolters in your list you can't appreciate its strenght. If you have 10-15 there's a significant amount of shots for just 20-30 points. They can be spammed into vehicles, sarges and specialists. That's why they are too effective for their cost.

 Blackie wrote:
Well if you have 1-2 stormbolters in your list you can't appreciate its strenght. If you have 10-15 there's a significant amount of shots for just 20-30 points. They can be spammed into vehicles, sarges and specialists. That's why they are too effective for their cost.

They're not even close to effective at S4 AP0 vs hordes. And you have to buy an overcosted marine something to bring one in the first place. Hordes should fear bobby g asscannons and precious little else from marines. They just don't have the physical shots to threaten you.

Martel732 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Well if you have 1-2 stormbolters in your list you can't appreciate its strenght. If you have 10-15 there's a significant amount of shots for just 20-30 points. They can be spammed into vehicles, sarges and specialists. That's why they are too effective for their cost.

They're not even close to effective at S4 AP0 vs hordes. And you have to buy an overcosted marine something to bring one in the first place. Hordes should fear bobby g asscannons and precious little else from marines. They just don't have the physical shots to threaten you.

Lol everyone should fear Bobby g asscannons. List that took heat one of the GT was sporting 6 twin linked. Turns out 72 str6 ap-1 shots that rerolls hits and wounds gets some work done.