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 auticus wrote:
A club or tight gaming group is the way to go yes.

It is also a rarity here in the USA. Most people (pretty much all people I know) rely on the FLGS model, and the FLGS model drives what games you will play.

Does historical gaming not involve a club scene? Is it just the fantasy-sci-fi gamers that rely on FLGS?

I would presume in most American cities it would be possible to join a club for nearly any interest. Yet wargamers don't seem to form many from what I read on forums.

To be fair Runewars doesn't seem to be taking off where I live and I live 30 minutes from FFG.

That said companies need to get back to the "paid" volunteer model if they want their games to take off and start to generate support. You need someone in areas willing to set up demos and run actual events. That means they need to coordinate with local FLGS and get their buy in too. I hope the FLGS model doesn't go away as most of the gamers I know only get to game during a tournament or event due to life. No FLGS, no tournament, no hobby.

niall78 wrote:

 auticus wrote:
A club or tight gaming group is the way to go yes.

It is also a rarity here in the USA. Most people (pretty much all people I know) rely on the FLGS model, and the FLGS model drives what games you will play.

Does historical gaming not involve a club scene? Is it just the fantasy-sci-fi gamers that rely on FLGS?

I would presume in most American cities it would be possible to join a club for nearly any interest. Yet wargamers don't seem to form many from what I read on forums.

The few historical guys I know play in a tight knit group in their basements or garages so that would be a form of club I think yes.

Clubs are just not popular here. I don't know why, we've tried starting one many tiimes over the past twenty years but it can never get any real positive direction because people are fine with the free FLGS and showing up there to play instead of having a club, with a club fee or whatever to pay for space, and I find gamers are loathe to have a club dictate to them what games are running as opposed to the FLGS where they can play whatever they want. In theory. The reality is as we have discussed that the FLGS crowd dictates to them what games they will play lol.

I have always for decades now found that the popular games are the ones that have a thriving tournament community here. If you want your game to succeed you need to put money into a world championship for it. If Runewars had a high profile high visibility world championship circuit, I'd bet you that it would become popular.

GW found out just how important it is to suck up to the tournament scene, and you see that now reflected in their media and how they promote the game with matched play and officially sanctioned big name tournaments as well as endorsements of the iindependent big time tournaments.

Clubs around the United States are exceptionally rare, and very informal when they exist. There are loads of small "five or six friends meet at someone's house" style groups, but large and organized groups are relatively non-existent except for the entities which create conventions. Of course in the US we have much larger houses in general and larger play-areas, so a club setting isn't 100% necessary.

Also with such a big country, the drives to locations can be much longer. The concentration of gamers is far more wide-spread except in a few places. The one big thing you'll see is Facebook groups oriented around US cities, where people arrange to meet up at local game stores or each other's houses. On a rare occasion someone will have access to a larger location and yes they'll meet up there weekly etc. It's just very different from UK styled actual wargaming groups.

 Elbows wrote:
Clubs around the United States are exceptionally rare, and very informal when they exist. There are loads of small "five or six friends meet at someone's house" style groups, but large and organized groups are relatively non-existent except for the entities which create conventions. Of course in the US we have much larger houses in general and larger play-areas, so a club setting isn't 100% necessary.

Also with such a big country, the drives to locations can be much longer. The concentration of gamers is far more wide-spread except in a few places. The one big thing you'll see is Facebook groups oriented around US cities, where people arrange to meet up at local game stores or each other's houses. On a rare occasion someone will have access to a larger location and yes they'll meet up there weekly etc. It's just very different from UK styled actual wargaming groups.

Thanks for the information. Very informative.

The setup in the US seems to separate gamers instead of bringing them together. Instead of diverse gaming communities you get groups focused on particular systems.

Yep.

The most diverse place you'll get is the local gaming store - but even then it's heavily impacted by the owners. They may allow or disallow certain games, or some which concentrate on card games won't have any tables for playing miniature wargames, etc.

One of the groups I was part of in the past pushed the "host your game" format. If you liked a game, you'd buy the terrain, the models, the rules, the dice - paint everything up and you'd "host" the game for the club. If anyone else was interested they would help out or buy into it as well. This meant that each of the 6-10 gamers would have 2-3 games they could host, and when the group got together each Thursday evening or the occasional Saturday they'd simply ask "who wants to run a game?".

Actual games like 40K or other games where you're expected to purchase and build/paint an army in a type of arms race is very rare with that group.

If you weren't providing the location or the table, and you weren't hosting the game - you'd simply bring food, drinks, beer.

Instead of diverse gaming communities you get groups focused on particular systems.

Precisely. And trying to bring the gaming community together can be treated with hostility.

And this also means that if you like a certain game but your community does not want it present, that you will be out of luck unless you can fiind a way to play it onliine, or drive long distance to play it where iit is played.

Another answer for a lot of people is that they don't play their game of choice except for at big cons like Adeptiicon or LVO because thats the only time and place they can play their game.

Also, for some reason in the US casual gaming seems to have disappeared at the FLGS level. If a game doesn’t have a thriving, paying tournament scene, good luck finding players.

niall78 wrote:

Thanks for the information. Very informative.

The setup in the US seems to separate gamers instead of bringing them together. Instead of diverse gaming communities you get groups focused on particular systems.

I'm not sure if its the actual setup that causes this or if its an inevitable result of the "there can be only one" console war mentality gaming seems to have in the US. There's a sense that you can only play one system and playing anything else means the old thing is dead and incapable of returning. Some of that is simply a result of the heavy investments of money, painting effort and rules knowledge required, but I think overall a community defined by playing miniatures feels healthier than one defined by any one single game.

 Stormonu wrote:
Also, for some reason in the US casual gaming seems to have disappeared at the FLGS level. If a game doesn’t have a thriving, paying tournament scene, good luck finding players.

I don't think paying has anything to do with it. 90% of tournament players for GW games don't get paid a dime and actually pay in. What the tournament scene represents though is a way for someone with a busy schedule or who works nights or what not to get 3-4 games in of a game they enjoy in a single go. Where with casual nights/days you're lucky to get 1-2 games in for a not to different amount of time invested. Especially once driving is added.

 Stormonu wrote:
Also, for some reason in the US casual gaming seems to have disappeared at the FLGS level. If a game doesn’t have a thriving, paying tournament scene, good luck finding players.

This is also my experience as well. (reference my above post about how if a game doesn't have a big tournament scene that you wont be able to find players if you depend on your FLGS)

Sorry, “Pay” as in some sort of award - whether FFG’s alt art cards, Wizkid’s blind boosters or the like, MTG boosters or such.

Though, you are right - I’m not aware of any sort of prize support for 40K, unless it’s just the store level ($X credit for winning the tournament, etc.)

I find it's the common mindset that it's easier to go to a store to buy things and play weekly, than to order online, and likely pay dues to rent out a hall or other area perhaps monthly. It's basically US "easiest way possible" which means if some games never gain traction because there isn't a crowd for them, well then obviously there isn't any interest in it; nevermind the fact that there might be interest if people would look beyond what they are familiar with.

Casual gaming exists here in wisconsin. Most of us are now in our 30s with kids, so we play at home instead of our flgs (it's easier to get families/groups together, talk stupid, have a beer while gaming, and not deal with stupid people, thefts, smells, flgs problems). Most of us spent around $100 in wood, stain, and a little elbow grease to make nice modular gaming tables at each of our homes. We meet up by calling, text, or facebook groups.

If you look for local gaming facebook groups you will find groups of faming friends like what I spoke of. Then you'll get to game with folks who are all of the same mind (all casual, competative, similar rule opinions, etc). As you become part of that group it's easy to make time for friends and games.

Not to mention flgs prices are more than online retailers. There is still a place for flgs and I support mine, but I prefer and almost exclusively play at our residences instead.

How good is the Runewars starter set, how big do the average game get?

Starter set is a pretty good deal, best if you have two people go in and split the forces (though someone may need the Essentials for the base cards and such that there isn't doubles of - or buy two core sets.).

Tournament games are 200 pts, you get about 100 pts. for each army with the base set. The advantage of getting the add-on packs though - instead of two core boxes - is there are some card options that come with the add-on packs that aren't in the base set*. That and the "command" set and special heroes, which aren't in the base set (the base set comes with a hero, the ones in the add-on packs are different, and relatively more powerful).

* If you are playing casual, it's easy enough to find the cards on FFG's site and print out copies if you aren't into chasing them down.

Wayniac wrote:
I find it's the common mindset that it's easier to go to a store to buy things and play weekly, than to order online, and likely pay dues to rent out a hall or other area perhaps monthly. It's basically US "easiest way possible" which means if some games never gain traction because there isn't a crowd for them, well then obviously there isn't any interest in it; nevermind the fact that there might be interest if people would look beyond what they are familiar with.

There's a lot of casual gaming in the US, but we do focus on LGS rather than gaming clubs. Rent for a club space is high enough that the membership fees aren't really tenable. Add to the fact that most gaming stores supply tables for gaming already and there really isn't a place for gaming clubs to prosper.

Doesn’t the US have things like study associations, community centres etc where you can use their space for cheap/free? FLGS don’t really exist in Sweden outside a couple of big cities, so we have clubs. My gaming club doesn’t pay a cent to rent our space, it’s provided by a study association where special interest/hobby groups can schedule meetings for free. Study associations have a very long history here and in most towns and cities you can find courses or clubs in a wide variety of subjects. They have roots in the worker movement. Our clubs a couple of rooms to use every Sunday and space to store terrain. We have about 30-40 members and if anyone wants to play a new game, they ask in our FB group if anyone’s interested or simply bring it to the club. Playing at home is nice but also limiting since you’ll only be playing with your small friend group.

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
How good is the Runewars starter set, how big do the average game get?

Stormonu covered the particulars pretty well.

Roughly 100 pts for the human and undead faction, with "full size" games weighing in at 200 pts.

The best deal, if both players like the system, is for each to buy a core box and split the contents so you each wind up with 200 pts in models, movement templates, morale deck, upgrades, etc.

Of course, now there are two additional factions you can buy in with, skipping the core box entirely and getting the "Essentials Pack" that has all the functional game components you need.


200 pts is the average game, but not by any means the maximum size. You can play it up to any value you want, though I find it the most "balanced" at 200 pts. Games occupy a 6'x3' footprint, though a lot of it will remain empty simply because the game focuses on field maneuver and position rather than filling space, and you'll need that space to move in. Games last an average of 1.5 hours, with contentious private games extending sometimes as long as 2-2.5 hrs.

Not everyone falls instantly in love with the basic core set factions, seeing them as generic humans vs undead, but I found a lot to love stylistically about the undead, and the humans have a very straightforward playstyle, good cavalry, a cool pseudo roman aesthetic, and some excellent heroes and upgrades released since the core set dropped.

 Mymearan wrote:
Doesn’t the US have things like study associations, community centres etc where you can use their space for cheap/free? FLGS don’t really exist in Sweden outside a couple of big cities, so we have clubs. My gaming club doesn’t pay a cent to rent our space, it’s provided by a study association where special interest/hobby groups can schedule meetings for free. Study associations have a very long history here and in most towns and cities you can find courses or clubs in a wide variety of subjects. They have roots in the worker movement. Our clubs a couple of rooms to use every Sunday and space to store terrain. We have about 30-40 members and if anyone wants to play a new game, they ask in our FB group if anyone’s interested or simply bring it to the club. Playing at home is nice but also limiting since you’ll only be playing with your small friend group.

Rarely is space like that available (most available at libraries or churches). On the weekends, spaces that are available are taken up with weddings and parties, etc. Regarding your last point - my experience has sadly been that a small friend group is often better. My current "club" is maybe 15-20 people, of whom I really enjoy playing about four of them. So it is a good way to meet new likeminded folks, but also I don't tend to enjoy most random match-ups with strangers.

 Elbows wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:
Doesn’t the US have things like study associations, community centres etc where you can use their space for cheap/free? FLGS don’t really exist in Sweden outside a couple of big cities, so we have clubs. My gaming club doesn’t pay a cent to rent our space, it’s provided by a study association where special interest/hobby groups can schedule meetings for free. Study associations have a very long history here and in most towns and cities you can find courses or clubs in a wide variety of subjects. They have roots in the worker movement. Our clubs a couple of rooms to use every Sunday and space to store terrain. We have about 30-40 members and if anyone wants to play a new game, they ask in our FB group if anyone’s interested or simply bring it to the club. Playing at home is nice but also limiting since you’ll only be playing with your small friend group.

Rarely is space like that available (most available at libraries or churches). On the weekends, spaces that are available are taken up with weddings and parties, etc. Regarding your last point - my experience has sadly been that a small friend group is often better. My current "club" is maybe 15-20 people, of whom I really enjoy playing about four of them. So it is a good way to meet new likeminded folks, but also I don't tend to enjoy most random match-ups with strangers.

That is both the advantage and disadvantage of clubs, especially for people who aren't naturally gregarious - on the bad side you have to play with loads of people you don't know and many will turn out to be annoying or outright arseholes, but on the good side you get to play with loads of people you don't know quickly and easily without having to let them know where you live and you can filter out the good ones to form a more private group

As Elbows stated above.

Down here in the deep south at least, most community centers are booked like 3-6 months out, and it can be difficult to get more than one weekend a month without raising ire that you're "hogging" the space.

Libraries in the US (I'm guessing that's the closest to study associations) generally don't like gamers - they tend to be loud and even if they have meeting rooms, don't like noisy tenants.

Churchs - though it's gotten better since the satanic D&D scares of the 80's, churches generally will not rent out to gamers. Many actually won't rent out to individuals who aren't members of the church in the first place.

I'm lucky that there is a local club in my city - the Kreigspeilers, and I'm friends with several of the old hands there. However, I tend to prefer playing at my house, as I've had enough bad 40K experience with members that it's the reason I avoid the 40K tournament and don't play pick-up games with anyone I'm not familiar with.