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 Lance845 wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:


This is nonsense. There is no sequencing for spending cp and stratagems. Declaring your using it is the same as spening. The moment you declare its done. Nothing in the rules gives you permission to treat it any other way. You cant pick targets for, or even select a stratgem until you reach its trigger condition and declare it. The moment you do the cp is spent and you move on to resolution. If your opponent then also declares s/he also spends and its locked in.

You apparently missed the point because you just agreed with me for the most part.

Anyway, RAW, these are all things that happen when you use a Stratagem. They are, thus, simultaneous, as you and I both agree. Since they're simultaneous, active player chooses order of resolution.

That minutiae aside, you should note that the critical part of what I wrote is not how the GK sequences the minutiae (declare, spend, resolve) but the more macro element (who declares first; Tyranid or GK). There's no provision in RAW for playing 'in response' or 'like interrupts' for MtG. The GK can thus always elect to have the two simultaneous Stratagems resolve Tyranid first, thus making his own attempt at a declaration illegal and not spending the CP.

Apparently you missed my point.

The only thing that is sequenced is whether the GK players stratagem gets resolved first or the Nids. All the stuff you posted about points, resolution and declare. That doesn't exist. At all. The moment the player declares the points are already spent and the action is going to be resolved. No take-backsies. If the nid players stratagem is chosen to resolve first, it doesn't make the GK players stratagem illegal and thus not playable thus saving him the point/s. The sequencing rules don't allow for that. Both stratagems are taking place SIMULTANEOUSLY in game time.

You just contradicted yourself. You cannot have parts of the stratagem already being concluded if both are happening simultaneously.

If they are both taking place simultaneously (as you and I both agree) then the GK player gets to sequence them per the rules on sequencing. He sequences his to occur second, it is an illegal move, it cannot be done and thus is the equivalent of trying to upgrade a Captain to a Chapter Master on round 2: you can declare it all you want but nothing happens.

The one is incapable of canceling out the other by making it illegal. Again, the points have already been spent, the action is already taking place. It is possible for the one to make it so the other takes place to no effect. THAT can happen. And in this case that is exactly what happens. The GK players stratagem ends up having no effect. But it still happens.

You need to consult your RAW because the problem seems to be you're inventing steps. For stratagems:

When you build a Battle-forged army, it will have a number of Command Points. These can be spent to utilise Stratagems...You can spend Command Points to use a Stratagem before or during a battle. Each time you use a Stratagem, reduce your Command Points total by the appropriate amount.

Notice that there is no mention of 'declaring' or 'playing' here. We know that those happen cause you have to talk to your opponent to play the game, but as far as RAW is concerned all elements of using a Stratagem are one big simultaneous event. Notice also that there are no provisions for 'fizzling' or playing an illegal stratagem. This is not MtG, you cannot have a spell fizzle and you cannot play a stratagem whose requirements are not met. Stratagems are completely binary: their conditions are met or they are not.

Further, there is similarly no provision saying you use the Command Points when you declare or play the stratagem. Command Points are explicitly only deducted when a stratagem is USED.

In this thread, it is agreed that the GK stratagem cannot be played if the Tyranid one goes first because the GK no longer has 2 dice for the "instead of 2" portion. There are also no phases like MtG's stack. There is no provision in RAW for "I play one, now you get a window to play in response if you want, e.t.c.". The stratagems thus both occur at the same time and are simultaneous. Since they are simultaneous, the GK player gets to organize them due to the sequencing rule. If his stratagem goes second, he is not capable of using it. Since it was not used, there is no deduction of Command Points per RAW.

Again, the sequencing rules allow you to choose the order in which effects are RESOLVED. They already were declared, their costs have already been paid, it's only the resolution that is sequenced.

Stratagems only have one resolution: 'used'. You're inventing steps.

To give a TLDR: Stratagems only deduct points if they are "used". Stratagems can only be in states of "used" or "not used" and can only be used when their conditions are met. if the Tyranid goes first, the GK stratagem cannot be used. Since it cannot be used, no points are deducted.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eihnlazer wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:
Initially I was convinced that the deepest shadow won out on RAW. However I remembered that there are things in this game that you are allowed to do "instead of" things that you aren't allowed to do. Ie: you can trigger smoke launchers instead of shooting even if you fell back and couldn't shoot that phase.

"Your opponent can only roll a single dice for the Psychic test."
vs
"Roll three dice rather than two and pick the two highest"

Just like smoke launchers that can trigger even when you can't shoot, can you chose to roll 3 dice even when you denied from rolling 2?

No. currently the GK strat fissles out because of the wording. Since you only have 1 dice to cast with, you can no longer roll "3 instead of 2".

I personally believe this is a bit too harsh, but it is the RAW.

My suggestion was to change it so that the GK strat just adds one dice and drop the lowest, meaning you would still get some use out of it even if hit with the tyranid strat.

I'm just quoting to say 'fizzling' is impossible. There is no provision in RAW for playing an illegal stratagem.

They are not parts of a stratagem.The startagem doesn't have parts. The "resolution" is applying it's effects whatever they might be. Sometimes it's an instantaneous effect, like deploying a unit or changing the way you cast a power. Sometimes it might be a dice roll to determine the exact effect like the psionic barrage zoanthropes can do. It doesn't matter.

The only thing the players get to pick is the order in which they are resolved.

Sequencing
While playing Warhammer
40,000, you’ll occasionally
find that two or more rules
are to be resolved at the
same time – normally ‘at
the start of the Movement
phase’ or ‘before the battle
begins’. When this happens
during the game, the player
whose turn it is chooses the
order. If these things occur
before or after the game,
or at the start or end of a
battle round, the players
roll off and the winner
decides in what order the
rules are resolved.

Both effects still happen regardless because both effects are still happening a the same time.

Again, the very moment you declare your using it your points are gone. A effective counter such as the one done by the nids cannot make it so your stratagem retroactively could not have been used. Both effects trigger simultaneously. Both players spend their points. The player whos turn it is picks the order in which the stratagems are resolved.

 Lance845 wrote:
They are not parts of a stratagem.The startagem doesn't have parts. The "resolution" is applying it's effects whatever they might be. Sometimes it's an instantaneous effect, like deploying a unit or changing the way you cast a power. Sometimes it might be a dice roll to determine the exact effect like the psionic barrage zoanthropes can do. It doesn't matter.

You're still inventing steps. Look at the RAW for stratagems. Point to where CP gets deducted. It's only when the stratagem is 'used'. Now look through the whole book and tell me if you can find any mention or distinction between 'resolution', 'declaring' and 'using'. There isn't. Stratagems only have one step: use. Literally everything happens simultaneously in that 'use' step.

The only thing the players get to pick is the order in which they are resolved.

And the only thing to resolve is 'use'. Everything happens in 'used'.

Both effects still happen regardless because both effects are still happening a the same time.

They can't because the GK's stratagem is no longer eligible.

Again, the very moment you declare your using it your points are gone.

RAW does not say this. RAW only says 'use'.

A effective counter such as the one done by the nids cannot make it so your stratagem retroactively could not have been used.

RAW does not say this, anywhere.

Both effects trigger simultaneously.

RAW does not say this. RAW only says 'use'.

Both players spend their points.

RAW does not say this. RAW only says CP is deducted when 'used'.

The player whos turn it is picked the order in which the stratagems are resolved.

And if you had anywhere in RAW you could point to for support that'd help your argument a lot, but you're just inventing steps. Under RAW, everything about the stratagems happens simultaneously, including the deduction of points because it's all contingent on 'used'. Thus, to resolve the stratagem is to resolve the order of effect and the expenditure of points.

How are you not understanding this?

THEY ARE USED AT THE SAME TIME. Both stratagems, in terms of the game, happen AT THE SAME TIME. One effect cannot cancel out the other one being USED. because they are USED at the SAME TIME. Just because one is USED to no effect does not mean it is not USED. That is the RAW.

If both me and my opponent used stratagems that would allow us to deepstrike units before the game starts and I win, so I place all my units in such a way that there is no legal location for him to place his units then his stratagem is still USED, the points are spent, and the models that cannot fit on the board are destroyed.

Just because the stratagem has no effect for him doesn't mean it was not USED at the SAME TIME.

Indeed. You use a Stratagem by saying "I'm using this Stratagem". That is it.

Honestly peeps, it's the 'common sense edition'.

 Lance845 wrote:
How are you not understanding this?

At this point I'm asking the same question about you but let's keep this polite, yes?

THEY ARE USED AT THE SAME TIME. Both stratagems, in terms of the game, happen AT THE SAME TIME.

We have agreed on this in every post. I'm not sure why you're repeating it in caps. Our dispute does not lie here.

One effect cannot cancel out the other one being USED. because they are USED at the SAME TIME. Just because one is USED to no effect does not mean it is not USED. That is the RAW.

This is the problem. This isn't RAW. There's literally no language to support you.

RAW is that Stratagems can be used. If used, they deduct CP. You're attempting to say declaring is a different step than using but there's no RAW for that. RAW is only use. Thus, all elements of use happen at the same time.

If both me and my opponent used stratagems that would allow us to deepstrike units before the game starts and I win, so I place all my units in such a way that there is no legal location for him to place his units then his stratagem is still USED, the points are spent, and the models that cannot fit on the board are destroyed.

This is completely unrelated. The deep strike Stratagems do not have conditions requiring there to be space on the board for their arrival in order for the stratagem to be played. As the rest of this thread showed, having two dice is a requirement to play the GK Stratagem. This is not an issue of 'no effect', it's an issue of illegal moves.

Just because the stratagem has no effect for him doesn't mean it was not USED at the SAME TIME.

This is something we agreed on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Indeed. You use a Stratagem by saying "I'm using this Stratagem". That is it.

Honestly peeps, it's the 'common sense edition'.

You also have to meet the Stratagems conditions and deduct CP to use it. These happen together, RAW.

The raw is in the sequencing rules. They dont tell you one effect can cancel the other. They tell you only to choose in which order the rules are resolved. But they all have to be resolved. Nothing gives you permission to do otherwise. The trigger condition for the gk power is attempting to manifest a power. That is when you use the stratagem. That trigger condition is still met regardless of what order you resolve them in.

It doesnt matter that triggering it has no effect. Its been triggered. Its done. The points are gone.

 Lance845 wrote:
The raw is in the sequencing rules. They dont tell you one effect can cancel the other.

That's right, but I've never said cancelling. I've only talked about legal and illegal moves.

They tell you only to choose in which order the rules are resolved.

And there is only one step, per RAW, for Stratagems: 'use'.

Nothing gives you permission to do otherwise.

Yep.

The trigger condition for the gk power is attempting to manifest a power. That is when you use the stratagem. That trigger condition is still met regardless of what order you resolve them in

There we go, that's the meat. I disagree. RAW does not distinguish concepts like this. Everything about a Stratagem, from saying you're playing it to deducting CP to applying the effect all falls under one word: 'use'. RAW simply makes no other distinctions. Thus, everything in a Stratagem has to be done for it to be 'used'.

It doesnt matter that triggering it has no effect. Its been triggered. Its done. The points are gone.

Remember though, RAW doesn't talk about 'trigger'. RAW only talks about 'use'. There's no other provision for the entirety of Stratagem play.

Audustum wrote:
There we go, that's the meat. I disagree. RAW does not distinguish concepts like this. Everything about a Stratagem, from saying you're playing it to deducting CP to applying the effect all falls under one word: 'use'. RAW simply makes no other distinctions. Thus, everything in a Stratagem has to be done for it to be 'used'.

Except it is used. It just doesn't do very much.

The stratagem itself describes its own terms for when it can be used. As they all do. You can disagree all you want, its right there in the wording. You can select a unit for shooting, move through the steps, reach the point of declaring targets, and find out nobody is in range and thus the shooting doesnt happen. You STILL chose that unit and went through the steps even though nothing actually happened from it. You use the stratagem when you try to manifest a power. Just because you cannot complete its effect doesnt mean its an invalid selection or the cp are not spent.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Audustum wrote:
There we go, that's the meat. I disagree. RAW does not distinguish concepts like this. Everything about a Stratagem, from saying you're playing it to deducting CP to applying the effect all falls under one word: 'use'. RAW simply makes no other distinctions. Thus, everything in a Stratagem has to be done for it to be 'used'.

Except it is used. It just doesn't do very much.

It can't be used. RAW includes all elements of a Stratagem on 'use'. If any part fails it's not 'used'.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:
The stratagem itself describes its own terms for when it can be used. As they all do.

Right.

You can disagree all you want, its right there in the wording.

You're still confused because I'm not disagreeing on that.

You can select a unit for shooting, move through the steps, reach the point of declaring targets, and find out nobody is in range and thus the shooting doesnt happen. You STILL chose that unit and went through the steps even though nothing actually happened from it.

This is correct for shooting, but in RAW all of these individual steps are broken down and said to happen sequentially. Stratagems don't do that. Stratagems just encompass the entirety of their existence as 'used', thus this is an improper analogy.

You use the stratagem when you try to manifest a power.

Time to quote the RAW for this if you're gonna keep arguing it. RAW is only 'use'.

Just because you cannot complete its effect doesnt mean its an invalid selection or the cp are not spent.

Wrong word choice again. A contingent of the Stratagem fails here as already discussed in the thread.

is this gonna be 19 pages of "Define 'used' by the RAW!" and calls of "prove it!"

Keep it civil, peeps, and stay off the Crazy Train.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
is this gonna be 19 pages of "Define 'used' by the RAW!" and calls of "prove it!"

Keep it civil, peeps, and stay off the Crazy Train.

It does seem that what is meant by 'use' is the crux of the issue.

Audustum wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
is this gonna be 19 pages of "Define 'used' by the RAW!" and calls of "prove it!"

Keep it civil, peeps, and stay off the Crazy Train.

It does seem that what is meant by 'use' is the crux of the issue.

Good luck finding a rules lawyer definition for a common sense term... declaring you're using a Stratagem is using a Stratagem. Nothing more complex than that.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
is this gonna be 19 pages of "Define 'used' by the RAW!" and calls of "prove it!"

Keep it civil, peeps, and stay off the Crazy Train.

It does seem that what is meant by 'use' is the crux of the issue.

Good luck finding a rules lawyer definition for a common sense term... declaring you're using a Stratagem is using a Stratagem. Nothing more complex than that.

The problem with common sense, in my experience, is that it is not very common. How people interpret words like that will change not only from person to person but region to region and even career to career. I would say good luck on finding any two human beings who agree on a full definition of any word.

This is a case in point. I believe using the stratagem requires actually, you know, using it: applying the effects and spending the command points. This also happens to be the definition that is supported by RAW.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
is this gonna be 19 pages of "Define 'used' by the RAW!" and calls of "prove it!"

Keep it civil, peeps, and stay off the Crazy Train.

No. Im done. This one isn't even entertaining to argue about. Just depressing.

New (week old) Grey Knight Errata:

Page 99 – Psychic Channelling
Change the second sentence of rules text to read: ‘Roll an additional D6 and discard the lowest result.’

So no more weird interactions!

 BaconCatBug wrote:
New (week old) Grey Knight Errata:

Page 99 – Psychic Channelling
Change the second sentence of rules text to read: ‘Roll an additional D6 and discard the lowest result.’

So no more weird interactions!

Huzzah! Smart fix.

Sequencing is still in play though right? So would it be always if nid plays his stragtgem to 1d6 then GK plays it back up to 2d6, or if GK player goes first and plays 3d6 then nid plays it would drop to 1d6.

Same problem. they didn't fix anything.
They need to establish an attack vs defender. Ie the player whose turn it is makes all his attacks and decision, then the opponent can counter, if he so chooses. All this same time crap has never worked.

 Dynas wrote:
Sequencing is still in play though right? So would it be always if nid plays his stragtgem to 1d6 then GK plays it back up to 2d6, or if GK player goes first and plays 3d6 then nid plays it would drop to 1d6.

Same problem. they didn't fix anything.
They need to establish an attack vs defender. Ie the player whose turn it is makes all his attacks and decision, then the opponent can counter, if he so chooses. All this same time crap has never worked.

Assume I'm nids and you're grey knights.

I make you roll a single dice psychic test. You use your stratagem to roll an additional dice and discard the lowest result. You roll 2 but discard one. You use the result of one dice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The order we declare it in never matters because they're happening at the same time, so you always get to decide the order.

Jacksmiles wrote:

 Dynas wrote:
Sequencing is still in play though right? So would it be always if nid plays his stragtgem to 1d6 then GK plays it back up to 2d6, or if GK player goes first and plays 3d6 then nid plays it would drop to 1d6.

Same problem. they didn't fix anything.
They need to establish an attack vs defender. Ie the player whose turn it is makes all his attacks and decision, then the opponent can counter, if he so chooses. All this same time crap has never worked.

Assume I'm nids and you're grey knights.

I make you roll a single dice psychic test. You use your stratagem to roll an additional dice and discard the lowest result. You roll 2 but discard one. You use the result of one dice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The order we declare it in never matters because they're happening at the same time, so you always get to decide the order.

Ok but what if I say i want to roll 3 first to ensure I get the test off. Then you play that stratagem, im back to 2 dice....?

You = who? the nid player? the GK player? the players whos turn it is?

 Dynas wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:

 Dynas wrote:
Sequencing is still in play though right? So would it be always if nid plays his stragtgem to 1d6 then GK plays it back up to 2d6, or if GK player goes first and plays 3d6 then nid plays it would drop to 1d6.

Same problem. they didn't fix anything.
They need to establish an attack vs defender. Ie the player whose turn it is makes all his attacks and decision, then the opponent can counter, if he so chooses. All this same time crap has never worked.

Assume I'm nids and you're grey knights.

I make you roll a single dice psychic test. You use your stratagem to roll an additional dice and discard the lowest result. You roll 2 but discard one. You use the result of one dice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The order we declare it in never matters because they're happening at the same time, so you always get to decide the order.

Ok but what if I say i want to roll 3 first to ensure I get the test off. Then you play that stratagem, im back to 2 dice....?

You = who? the nid player? the GK player? the players whos turn it is?

Both stratagems take place before any dice are rolled. You declare the cast (grey knight). Both stratagems are declared to be used. You can pick the order they apply. Doesnt matter. One reduces you to 1d6. One adds 1d6 and use the highest. Now you roll. You dont have the choice to roll the dice first. The stratagems happen before the test is taken.