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 Galas wrote:
Thats one of the reasons I liked more Fantasy Chaos than 40k Chaos.

Norsca and other human worshiper Chaos tribes were very "human". They feel as legitimate places to live. Their Gods where bloodthirsty yes, but no different than other Gods of the universe. They lived with the Chaos "gifts" in a totally natural way. I loved the little story of the Mariemburg merchant in a Norsca tribe in the old "Hordes of Chaos" book of 6th edition, talking with his norscan guide.

I don't know much about fantasy, but I do know that 40k Chaos is essentially like the abusive spouse. "Why would you turn me into a spawn?" "BECAUSE I LOVE YOU! YOU MADE ME DO IT!"

Neither's not really an option humans can't really stand on their own at all in the 40k universe...

I suppose I take an interpretation closer to the Fantasy for Chaos in 40k. You get your gluttenous devouring of ships and worlds, but it's clear from the legions of cultists and Traitor Legions that it's eminently possible to survive, even thrive, under the auspices of Chaos.

It's different grant you, but you're no more or less cattle than you are on the vast majority of Imperial worlds (cattle for the factory, cattle for the agri-worlds, cattle for the Guard, cattle for the Black Ships).

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Neither's not really an option humans can't really stand on their own at all in the 40k universe...

I suppose I take an interpretation closer to the Fantasy for Chaos in 40k. You get your gluttenous devouring of ships and worlds, but it's clear from the legions of cultists and Traitor Legions that it's eminently possible to survive, even thrive, under the auspices of Chaos.

It's different grant you, but you're no more or less cattle than you are on the vast majority of Imperial worlds (cattle for the factory, cattle for the agri-worlds, cattle for the Guard, cattle for the Black Ships).

I actually don't think you're cattle on the "Vast majority" of Imperial worlds.

Most of the Imperial Guard books that involve an increase in conscription have the characters acting all surprised, and there's usually some politicizing about how "unprecedented" it is. I generally get the impression that life on those worlds is pretty stable, with the usual "Elect Governess Trump" or "Vote for Governor Clinton" posters outside of kaff shops on the corner down the street from the Mechanicus-sanctified arcade rooms. Maybe in some of the "worse" areas there's a gang-gunfight or two, like a normal American city. This is why things like a 10% increase in a planet's tithe cause such upheavals - it's the Imperium intruding into an otherwise comparatively nice life (compared to, say, being an Ork slave or Dark Eldar... puppet-thing. Or Tyranid food. Or Tau not!Gulag labor).

It's only when the inevitable all-consuming horde of Daemons or Aliens or whatever shows up that things get gakky.

Different interpretations I suppose. The way I see the Imperium is as primarily hives specialising in cranking out military machinery with little-to-no concern over living conditions, fed by agri-worlds where life is similarly harsh in order to provide enough food to sustain such colossal hives, interspersed with the occasional backwater feral world where life is, if anything, shorter.

The Imperium's been in a practical state of total war for millennia, stretched to the very ends of its military and economic capability for century after century after century until it's the decaying harried hulk you see in 40k. That's where the idea of 'the vast majority of planets are gak-holes' comes from. If most places were pretty alright, then the Imperium wouldn't be militarily stretched. They'd in effect be ticking over and capable of stomping over their enemies if they just upped their industry and military mobilisation, defeating the whole 'the Imperium is under credible attack' thing...

That's my view of the Imperium anyway

Most worlds are not hive worlds. Most are, from at least 3e's fluff, rather a lot like our current one.

If the people resented the Imperium en-masse, it would probably fall to Chaos in very short order. There has to be something worth living for.

That said, my own IG regiment fluff is absolutely sourced from a pair of co-solar worlds where one's an industrial hive and the other an agri/garden world that feeds it. Life is a bit better on the hive world...

M.

I think the most common world in the Imperium is rated Civilized World.

That's essentially our current Earth. Hive Worlds might be the next most common, but I don't think they're like that.

Though when it comes time to choose what planets to defend, the manufacturing worlds are a higher priority than the Civilized Worlds, so most of the fighting takes place on Hive Worlds while the Civilized Worlds just sorta roll over and die.

Theres mentions of planets that for them the Imperium is just a myth. They are totally left alone as long as they pay their "taxes"; and the only Imperial presence they recive is a small vessel every 100 years to look if everything is fine.
Theres many, many planets on the Imperium where living is of a good standard. Some of them will be even utophias. But as Unit1126PLL said, just as you don't see normally civilian vehicles in warhammer40k, the scope of the wargame is totally focused on the ugly and horrible planets where all the fighting happens.

The Imperium needs a good ol' Heretics of Dune style scattering. Would be a pretty interesting shift in the fluff that could open up a lot of cool world building and 'your dudes' opportunities.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I think the most common world in the Imperium is rated Civilized World.

That's essentially our current Earth. Hive Worlds might be the next most common, but I don't think they're like that.

True, but in terms of population, hiveworlds massively skew the stats - populations of trillions per planet means Necromunda and Armageddon probably have a significant proportion of the population of the Segmentum Solar just on those two worlds.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I think the most common world in the Imperium is rated Civilized World.

That's essentially our current Earth. Hive Worlds might be the next most common, but I don't think they're like that.

True, but in terms of population, hiveworlds massively skew the stats - populations of trillions per planet means Necromunda and Armageddon probably have a significant proportion of the population of the Segmentum Solar just on those two worlds.

That's true, but even when I read about hives (e.g. Vervunhive in Necropolis) they're not even that bad much worse than, say, New York City.

Gang fights in the bad area over their tiny territories.

Fairly pedestrian life in the middle-habs, where people work, go home to their wives, kiss their children, etc. They may work 10 or 12 hour days instead of 8, but we used to have those on Earth anyways. The only reason we think more than 8 hour days is inhumane is because our society values leisure time a lot, and it's been enshrined into law.

In the upper hive, there's the aristocracy and wealthy types like Trump Tower writ large. Ostentatious, sure, perhaps even oppressive from a Western individualist perspective, but they won't ritually sacrifice the lower classes to a dark god or anything.... unless they fall to Chaos, of course.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:


True, but in terms of population, hiveworlds massively skew the stats - populations of trillions per planet means Necromunda and Armageddon probably have a significant proportion of the population of the Segmentum Solar just on those two worlds.

In a couple of Black Library books (The Emperor's Legion and The Carrion Throne) Terra is described as having a population in the quadrillions. I don't recall any other Hive World being described as being on the same scale but it's possible (Games Workshop seems to be upping a lot of its numbers).

 Galas wrote:
Thats one of the reasons I liked more Fantasy Chaos than 40k Chaos.

Norsca and other human worshiper Chaos tribes were very "human". They feel as legitimate places to live. Their Gods where bloodthirsty yes, but no different than other Gods of the universe. They lived with the Chaos "gifts" in a totally natural way. I loved the little story of the Mariemburg merchant in a Norsca tribe in the old "Hordes of Chaos" book of 6th edition, talking with his norscan guide.

Aye. That was one of my favourite things about Chaos in Fantasy as well. The Norscans worshipped Chaos, but they were very human as well, making the whole Empire vs Chaos thing more of a clash between different cultures and religions. Chaos followers in 40k on the other hand tend to be very much all insane maniacs who just want to see the world burn.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Different interpretations I suppose. The way I see the Imperium is as primarily hives specialising in cranking out military machinery with little-to-no concern over living conditions, fed by agri-worlds where life is similarly harsh in order to provide enough food to sustain such colossal hives, interspersed with the occasional backwater feral world where life is, if anything, shorter.

The Imperium's been in a practical state of total war for millennia, stretched to the very ends of its military and economic capability for century after century after century until it's the decaying harried hulk you see in 40k. That's where the idea of 'the vast majority of planets are gak-holes' comes from. If most places were pretty alright, then the Imperium wouldn't be militarily stretched. They'd in effect be ticking over and capable of stomping over their enemies if they just upped their industry and military mobilisation, defeating the whole 'the Imperium is under credible attack' thing...

That's my view of the Imperium anyway

You also have plenty of other classifications of worlds,many of them are not dystopian hellholes like Forge Worlds, Hive Worlds, etc. And those worlds are varied by how they govern themselves.

You just don't hear about them unless they are getting ready to get a major screwing over. Because, grimdark.

Mmmmm id say 50/50

The imperium is only nessesary as a result of manity expanding out everywhere especially on subpar habitable planets that are only used for specific resources.

the only way they survive is from imports and there needs to be structure for that.

that and it IS humanity.

it wouldn't be long before nearby star systems started warring against each other.

and besides that most of humanity already is for the most part self regulating anyway. the imperium just adds a bit of protection for a tax.

Because tyranids exists. Imperium of man is needed.

Well, perhaps if it weren't for the biggest GSC in the galaxy, Mankind would have put together a semi-functional government and actually kinda, y'know, done something right.

Without that cult - and the Horus Heresey and everything else they did - who knows what other threats might not also be around?

So, without the IoM, you wouldn't have that GSC, so you wouldn't have the Heresey, and who knows what else.

Bharring wrote:
Well, perhaps if it weren't for the biggest GSC in the galaxy, Mankind would have put together a semi-functional government and actually kinda, y'know, done something right.

Without that cult - and the Horus Heresey and everything else they did - who knows what other threats might not also be around?

So, without the IoM, you wouldn't have that GSC, so you wouldn't have the Heresey, and who knows what else.

But, without the Imperium, would humans even have survived in the first place?

Likely they would not be the major power they are now. But there are so many possiblities, who knows.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 RedCommander wrote:
You are wrong.

Imperium is the only way in the 41st millenium for humanity.

This doesn't need to be explained more elaborately.

=][=

The Imperium is monstrous. Humanity's only good future is as part of the Tau Empire, serving the Greater Good.

Tau... Empire?

Remind me again, who are these Taus? Are they one of those small xeno "empires" that control only a few thousand planets?

Those kind of "empires" don't have the right to define what is monstrous or even what is really an empire.

As the Imperium is based around the Great Crusade, no way would humanity be around in any large or widespread fashion without everything the Emperor worked at, from the Unification Wars to the Heresy, and then only the Imperium holding things together during and after it.

Humanity was about that widespread, but fractured and at the mercy of all the terrors of the galaxy.

Humanity has already completed the Golden Path of Leto II Altreides in warhammer. As a race they can't become extinct.

Bless The Maker and His Water...

M.

My favourite reading angle for W40K Imperium is as a satire of militaristic, authoritarian institutions. More or less like in Starship Troopers.
So obviously it is bad and it is the cause of its own problems.
Obviously as Galas says, it is also the fun of W40K.

Religion is zealous bigotry, church is inquisition, the army (imperial guard) is a huge machine that wastes common people lives... all is set to 11.
Humanity would be celarly better without such a regime, if it were in a "real" world. Even with all the threats by Xenos and Chaos, it would be better for the common people to live in a civilised society, allied with Tau, focused on science and research,with normal states authorities and a "normal" army that tries not to waste soldier's lives... than in a fascist meatgrinder for workers and soldiers.

In the consistent reality of the fiction... it is way more fun to keep the meatgrinder...

 Oldboy666 wrote:
My favourite reading angle for W40K Imperium is as a satire of militaristic, authoritarian institutions. More or less like in Starship Troopers.
So obviously it is bad and it is the cause of its own problems.
Obviously as Galas says, it is also the fun of W40K.

Religion is zealous bigotry, church is inquisition, the army (imperial guard) is a huge machine that wastes common people lives... all is set to 11.
Humanity would be celarly better without such a regime, if it were in a "real" world. Even with all the threats by Xenos and Chaos, it would be better for the common people to live in a civilised society, allied with Tau, focused on science and research,with normal states authorities and a "normal" army that tries not to waste soldier's lives... than in a fascist meatgrinder for workers and soldiers.

In the consistent reality of the fiction... it is way more fun to keep the meatgrinder...

But 40k isn't just satire. The central theme in 40k is what has become known as 'grimdark'. Grimdark is depressing, cynical and nihilistic. Something that is grimdark is not merely dark fantasy, the dark in grimdark is an insurmountable dark, with every effort to improve things ultimately impossible or futile. The Imperium in 40k is not grimdark because it is an incredibly brutal, oppressive regime, it is grimdark because it is the best possible thing within the setting. A Human society in 40k needs to be brutal and oppressive. Our open, 21st century Western societies would be infiltrated and corrupted by Chaos in a heartbeat. When free thinking leads to corruption by Chaos the only option is blind indoctrination. When every form of opposition and dissent can and will be corrupted by Chaos the only available option is to ruthlessly suppress it. When faced by enemies on all fronts, unity is essential and every voice against that unity must be instantly and mercilessly crushed lest the enemy take advantage of Human disunity.
A satirical work would be trying to teach us something. 40k doesn't teach anything beyond 'all your efforts are ultimately futile and there will be nothing but endless misery and the laughter of thirsting gods'.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Oldboy666 wrote:
My favourite reading angle for W40K Imperium is as a satire of militaristic, authoritarian institutions. More or less like in Starship Troopers.
So obviously it is bad and it is the cause of its own problems.
Obviously as Galas says, it is also the fun of W40K.

Religion is zealous bigotry, church is inquisition, the army (imperial guard) is a huge machine that wastes common people lives... all is set to 11.
Humanity would be celarly better without such a regime, if it were in a "real" world. Even with all the threats by Xenos and Chaos, it would be better for the common people to live in a civilised society, allied with Tau, focused on science and research,with normal states authorities and a "normal" army that tries not to waste soldier's lives... than in a fascist meatgrinder for workers and soldiers.

In the consistent reality of the fiction... it is way more fun to keep the meatgrinder...

But 40k isn't just satire. The central theme in 40k is what has become known as 'grimdark'. Grimdark is depressing, cynical and nihilistic. Something that is grimdark is not merely dark fantasy, the dark in grimdark is an insurmountable dark, with every effort to improve things ultimately impossible or futile. The Imperium in 40k is not grimdark because it is an incredibly brutal, oppressive regime, it is grimdark because it is the best possible thing within the setting. A Human society in 40k needs to be brutal and oppressive. Our open, 21st century Western societies would be infiltrated and corrupted by Chaos in a heartbeat. When free thinking leads to corruption by Chaos the only option is blind indoctrination. When every form of opposition and dissent can and will be corrupted by Chaos the only available option is to ruthlessly suppress it. When faced by enemies on all fronts, unity is essential and every voice against that unity must be instantly and mercilessly crushed lest the enemy take advantage of Human disunity.
A satirical work would be trying to teach us something. 40k doesn't teach anything beyond 'all your efforts are ultimately futile and there will be nothing but endless misery and the laughter of thirsting gods'.

I'm with you on the 'everything that is terrible about 40k...is the best that humanity can possibly do in this given situation' thing. It's part of what makes it most interesting. The people in 40k aren't uniformly idiots who if they just thought properly would have the whole thing solved in a fortnight. They're exactly the same as you and I. Thinking, smart individuals. However, because of just how royally fethed up the universe is a totalitarian dogmatic brutal dystopian dictatorship is the best that can possibly be done.

I would say that there is a positive note to it at the end though (which is the only positive note I'll really tolerate in 40k). It's that despite everything the universe has thrown at humanity through 40,000 years of absolute and utter sh*t. Despite more apocalypses than we can remember. Despite out AI trying to genocide us. Despite malevolent lovecraftian entities. Despite half of our entire military might outright trying to murder the other half...humanity still stands. Despite us being the second-weakest beings in the entire galaxy after Grots...we're indisputably the galactic superpower through little else but sheer human grit (and numbers...).

That's the take-home from 40k, and why I tend to moan about people wanting to 'inject some noblebright so they can better appreciate the grimdark'. The appreciation of the grimdark comes from the fact that despite it all...we're still here with our species-wide standard-issue balls of steel.

Each drop of noblebright dilutes that somewhat. Each fancy new grav-tank or spangly Space Marine tech dilutes that. That's why I tend to despair slightly with all the noblebright stuff...

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Oldboy666 wrote:
My favourite reading angle for W40K Imperium is as a satire of militaristic, authoritarian institutions. More or less like in Starship Troopers.
So obviously it is bad and it is the cause of its own problems.
Obviously as Galas says, it is also the fun of W40K.

Religion is zealous bigotry, church is inquisition, the army (imperial guard) is a huge machine that wastes common people lives... all is set to 11.
Humanity would be celarly better without such a regime, if it were in a "real" world. Even with all the threats by Xenos and Chaos, it would be better for the common people to live in a civilised society, allied with Tau, focused on science and research,with normal states authorities and a "normal" army that tries not to waste soldier's lives... than in a fascist meatgrinder for workers and soldiers.

In the consistent reality of the fiction... it is way more fun to keep the meatgrinder...

But 40k isn't just satire. The central theme in 40k is what has become known as 'grimdark'. Grimdark is depressing, cynical and nihilistic. Something that is grimdark is not merely dark fantasy, the dark in grimdark is an insurmountable dark, with every effort to improve things ultimately impossible or futile. The Imperium in 40k is not grimdark because it is an incredibly brutal, oppressive regime, it is grimdark because it is the best possible thing within the setting. A Human society in 40k needs to be brutal and oppressive. Our open, 21st century Western societies would be infiltrated and corrupted by Chaos in a heartbeat. When free thinking leads to corruption by Chaos the only option is blind indoctrination. When every form of opposition and dissent can and will be corrupted by Chaos the only available option is to ruthlessly suppress it. When faced by enemies on all fronts, unity is essential and every voice against that unity must be instantly and mercilessly crushed lest the enemy take advantage of Human disunity.
A satirical work would be trying to teach us something. 40k doesn't teach anything beyond 'all your efforts are ultimately futile and there will be nothing but endless misery and the laughter of thirsting gods'.

I'm with you on the 'everything that is terrible about 40k...is the best that humanity can possibly do in this given situation' thing. It's part of what makes it most interesting. The people in 40k aren't uniformly idiots who if they just thought properly would have the whole thing solved in a fortnight. They're exactly the same as you and I. Thinking, smart individuals. However, because of just how royally fethed up the universe is a totalitarian dogmatic brutal dystopian dictatorship is the best that can possibly be done.

I would say that there is a positive note to it at the end though (which is the only positive note I'll really tolerate in 40k). It's that despite everything the universe has thrown at humanity through 40,000 years of absolute and utter sh*t. Despite more apocalypses than we can remember. Despite out AI trying to genocide us. Despite malevolent lovecraftian entities. Despite half of our entire military might outright trying to murder the other half...humanity still stands. Despite us being the second-weakest beings in the entire galaxy after Grots...we're indisputably the galactic superpower through little else but sheer human grit (and numbers...).

That's the take-home from 40k, and why I tend to moan about people wanting to 'inject some noblebright so they can better appreciate the grimdark'. The appreciation of the grimdark comes from the fact that despite it all...we're still here with our specYou ies-wide standard-issue balls of steel.

Each drop of noblebright dilutes that somewhat. Each fancy new grav-tank or spangly Space Marine tech dilutes that. That's why I tend to despair slightly with all the noblebright stuff...

I think there's a lot of different stuff in 40k, being this universe been built in many years, by many different people and read by many different palyers and fans... (and being designed to appeal to reasonably large spectrum of demography and ideas).

Surely there's also the grimdark content you're speaking about. I'm seeing it too. (May be we disagree on it working in a "real world" situation... but 40K is not the real world).
That's why I'm speaking about a personal specific reading angle.
That's also why in my opinion this universe (even if it is basically a way to sell toys) has an artistic value. It has some depth.
You can read the iconographic, emotional content of the internal reality of the fiction and also you can find some metaphores speaking about our reality. They are a matter of interpretation. I don't think too that it is trying to preach you something, it shows you something and you decide, according to your views. More or less like a lot of thrash/death metal lyrics.

The thing I'm sure about is that if the "grimdark" nature of the 40K universe changes to a more bright and epic/heroic tone, it loses the stuff I'm liking the most and also the stuff you're.