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 Hulksmash wrote:
I'll be sad if the main guy doesn't come back for season 2.

Me too!!! But it all depends on where (if?) they go in any follow-on seasons...

As far as the book trilogy goes, the Ryker sleeve was Altered Carbon only, with Kovaks generally being sleeved as a tech ninja from then on ... kind of an enhanced version of his flashback self from AC, but with better neurachem, the ability to "cling" to stuff (Gecko-Tech), etc.

However, as much as "I'd" love to see Broken Angels & Woken Furies on-screen, I'm not convinced of the allure for GenPop.

"If" they do a 2nd season, I think they'll basically keep Kovaks on Earth, in the Ryker sleeve (because/ Handwavium or Technical Difficulties...) and create a different storyline (hopefully with Morgan's involvement) and kind of integrate doable arcs from BA & WF.

I also think they'll keep Ortega (I fething hope so!!!) and the flashback Kovaks.

And if they have the slightest iota of sense, Poe would have had an unmentioned totally illegal but secure backup in AC ... books aside, can't imagine another Kovaks show without EAP

Realistically, they can go where-ever they want with the TV show story - since the changes they made to the Envoys, Quell and even Kovacs, mean that sticking to the books is no longer possible. He does give the Ryker sleeve back, since Ryker will need it (when he meets up with Ortega at the end of the show, he tells her he's giving it back). In the book it didn't matter, he got needlecast to somewhere else because the UN didn't want him to stay on earth, but harlan's world didn't want him back.

They only need birth-kovacs (for flashbacks and when he does use a homeworld sleeve - mostly he's in synth and modified gene stock sleeves for the other two books. )

Yes...ish

Opinions will differ, but I think Kinnaman really made Kovaks "his" in the first season. From a production/popularity/longevity/profit perspective, they'd be foolish to ditch him.

Given that the ending also sets him up to travel to the other "settled worlds" since Rei didn't say WHERE she had Quell stored, there's no reason to STAY on Earth.

The rest of the settled worlds see Earth as little more than a historical curiosity (it's furthest from the settled worlds, and the most expensive place to needlecast to because of that distance) and for the most part, they get on with their own lives.

I'd much rather see the remaining ex-envoys (there were a few more survivors, not just Kovacs and Rei) in their new-civil war on Harlan's world.

And the angels in action.

Absolutely. I'd also love to see the deCom stuff ... I found that whole bit fascinating.

I guess I'm just tempering my hopes a little...

Got Netflix and firend and I watched it all both having read the book.

Really enjoyed it - depsite the major differences - right up till the last five minutes of epilogue which we thought were awful, made no sense and were really disapointing.

We did start calling it Bladerunner Porn due to the nudity.

Really did not like

There's elements of the "Die young a hero, or live long enough to become the villain" in the story, certainly.

 chromedog wrote:
There's elements of the "Die young a hero, or live long enough to become the villain" in the story, certainly.

#
Weirdly they seemed to blame everything on longevity not that their society was deeply flawed or that power corrupts, guess it makes it an easier watch but plenty of interesting stuff to explore without dumbing it down in this way.

Still most of it was really good.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 chromedog wrote:
There's elements of the "Die young a hero, or live long enough to become the villain" in the story, certainly.

#
Weirdly they seemed to blame everything on longevity not that their society was deeply flawed or that power corrupts, guess it makes it an easier watch but plenty of interesting stuff to explore without dumbing it down in this way.

Still most of it was really good.

Yup. I mean, even watching the show it's pretty evident that despite what it's pitching the problem isn't the idea that people can live forever, it's the idea that people can live forever within a socioeconomic system that allows rampant inequality to lead to a situation where the obscene wealth of a tiny minority can distort the market surrounding the techs that allow living forever so massively that it makes access to it all but impossible for the vast majority, while simultaneously making the tiny minority essentially immune to the law or repercussions of any kind.

Well the solution there, as the book correctly identifies, is to change the socioeconomic system and equalise access - what's especially hilarious to me is that despite the surface implications of that, the "book solution" could be achieved within the confines of everyday wishy-washy-centrist regulated capitalism, but the "show solution" requires the "evil commie" logic of "dragging everyone down to the level of the lowest common denominator".

That said, it needn't necessarily be socioeconomic policy biases that led to the shift in tone; it could just as well be pandering to religious types, since the whole "if you live forever there's no threat of God's judgement and eternal torment, therefore they all turn evil" way of viewing it will doubtless appeal to them.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 chromedog wrote:
There's elements of the "Die young a hero, or live long enough to become the villain" in the story, certainly.

#
Weirdly they seemed to blame everything on longevity not that their society was deeply flawed or that power corrupts, guess it makes it an easier watch but plenty of interesting stuff to explore without dumbing it down in this way.

Still most of it was really good.

Yup. I mean, even watching the show it's pretty evident that despite what it's pitching the problem isn't the idea that people can live forever, it's the idea that people can live forever within a socioeconomic system that allows rampant inequality to lead to a situation where the obscene wealth of a tiny minority can distort the market surrounding the techs that allow living forever so massively that it makes access to it all but impossible for the vast majority, while simultaneously making the tiny minority essentially immune to the law or repercussions of any kind.

Well the solution there, as the book correctly identifies, is to change the socioeconomic system and equalise access - what's especially hilarious to me is that despite the surface implications of that, the "book solution" could be achieved within the confines of everyday wishy-washy-centrist regulated capitalism, but the "show solution" requires the "evil commie" logic of "dragging everyone down to the level of the lowest common denominator".

That said, it needn't necessarily be socioeconomic policy biases that led to the shift in tone; it could just as well be pandering to religious types, since the whole "if you live forever there's no threat of God's judgement and eternal torment, therefore they all turn evil" way of viewing it will doubtless appeal to them.

Agreed and great post

Especially when you have the "resistance" railing against the "Evil Meth's" playing god and then themselves deciding to remove the ability to use stacks for the entirety of humanity - hmm but yeah freedom fighters / terrorists do tend to have a irony bypass inbuilt.

re the religious element - at the end the show does then also gloss over the whole bringing people back to testify does still trample over their rights of the believers to remain dead which has been brought back into law.

I didn't think it was preachy at all? It was just an element of the story, those that had immortality (and for whom a body really meant very little) had left their humanity - and empathy - behind them.

Don't click below if you haven't yet got to the end

 Pacific wrote:
I didn't think it was preachy at all? It was just an element of the story, those that had immortality (and for whom a body really meant very little) had left their humanity - and empathy - behind them.

Don't click below if you haven't yet got to the end

Spoiler:

Although some of this was to a greater or lesser extent: on one end Takeshi's sister, who quite literally could not have been any more disregarding of the lives of anyone else, to James Purefoy's character who obviously at least felt some sense of responsibility for perma-killing the prostitutes, in so much as he didn't want to live with the memory of murderning them

Spoiler:

I'm actually not convinced it needs a second series - most of the story arcs had been tied up neatly (which consisted of killing them in most cases) and there is something to be said for making something well, and just leaving it at that.

It's not so much that it's preachy(though it is that at points, chiefly the flashbacks and the Poirot-style wrapup of the main plot) as that it's cowardly. The social flaw in the original story is, if not capitalism wholesale, then at least the rampantly unequal libertarian capitalism that seems to be the wet dream of much of the right in the developed world and which increasingly encroaches on our present day reality, and they simply didn't have the sack to maintain that theme in the show, instead going with wishy-washy "absolute power corrupts absolutely" sentiment that wasn't likely to alienate anybody when Kinnaman was doing the rounds on the pre-release press tour.

Agreed - simply living a long time does not make you evil.

A social-econmoic system where the few keep getting richer and the poor get screwed is the problem here.

Bit like the whole death cult terrorists are not the good guys cause they live (somehow) in the magical forest Like most fansty terrorists / freedom fighters there is no sign of the neccesary support from other powers that is required for them to function and be effective in a tech based world.

The show looks good, has some great moments and imagery but IMO has a horrible and weak ending.