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They have no value at all in 8th edition.

If things couldn't easily fall out of combat, they'd be super useful.

I'm gonna try plasma gun ASM deep striking with a captain. And some other units to go with them, of course.

 Marmatag wrote:
They have no value at all in 8th edition.

If things couldn't easily fall out of combat, they'd be super useful.

Exactly this. If GW fixes CQC and requires an actual check to fall out of combat they become amazing.

I honestly do not even bother with 8th at this point. Thank god for 30k.

LunaWolvesLoyalist wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
They have no value at all in 8th edition.

If things couldn't easily fall out of combat, they'd be super useful.

Exactly this. If GW fixes CQC and requires an actual check to fall out of combat they become amazing.

I honestly do not even bother with 8th at this point. Thank god for 30k.

They're also, you know, terrible melee units on their own. If you're taking them for "assault" they are outclassed by more specialized melee units that CAN deal massive damage on the charge. Just like regular Marines, these guys don't seem to have a place in the current meta without either a price decrease or attack increase or something to make them more focused or desirable.

The fact enemies can back out of combat does make matters worse for the unit, however it in and of itself is not a problem. 8th rewards you for taking specialized units and punishes you for taking toolbox units. It's the reason Chaos Terminators aren't as desirable as Obliterators, or Chaos Marines aren't as desirable as Havocs.

Yup. There is nothing wrong with CQC, just with assault marines being bad compared to other CQC units.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Because there really isn't one. Flamers aren't good so being able to spam them doesn't work (though bikers would do that better anyway) and for TWO more points per model you can get Vanguard instead. They're not so cheap that you can argue to fill the Fast Attack slot for a Brigade. They simply can't do anything well.

There are people defending them as a choice in another thread, so I figured to make this thread as a dedicated discussion instead.

By adding jump packs and flamers they become solid units to hold up charing enemy infanty. They assault the bad guys, do their round, on their next round they fall back, shoot again, wait for the charge, overwatch flamer them again. Being able to fall back and shoot, and move fast is their thing. I'm with you on the Vanguard thing tho, except Vanguard squads can't equip flamers.

Gwarok wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Because there really isn't one. Flamers aren't good so being able to spam them doesn't work (though bikers would do that better anyway) and for TWO more points per model you can get Vanguard instead. They're not so cheap that you can argue to fill the Fast Attack slot for a Brigade. They simply can't do anything well.

There are people defending them as a choice in another thread, so I figured to make this thread as a dedicated discussion instead.

By adding jump packs and flamers they become solid units to hold up charing enemy infanty. They assault the bad guys, do their round, on their next round they fall back, shoot again, wait for the charge, overwatch flamer them again. Being able to fall back and shoot, and move fast is their thing. I'm with you on the Vanguard thing tho, except Vanguard squads can't equip flamers.

Equipping Flamers isn't a bonus now.

 Marmatag wrote:
They have no value at all in 8th edition.

If things couldn't easily fall out of combat, they'd be super useful.

Welllll id put the caveat that it would be more useful if things couldn't get out of combat so easily AND got to still shoot or charge or do things (aka fly orders chapter tactics and the like)

that and a hand full of armies that have really good screen units.

you should be able to deep strike, tie some long range unit for a turn, they can leave and your unit is dead but they are also not shooting las cannons at your tanks or what not.

Otherwise they are still a fast moving.

With jumppacks they are semi-useful due to deepstrike, fly and 12' move, but they die easily and are overcosted. Charging flyers can be fun if you have eviscerators (you shoudn't).

I play Raven Guard and have 30 but I completly shelved them for Vanguard vets. They need to be troops.

I was thinking of using them just to tie up some dangerous enemy unit for a turn or two. Are Assault Marines too expensive for that? What would be better/cheaper then? Scouts maybe, but you would have to make sure you deploy after your opponent.

Azuza001 wrote:
Back in the day assault marines were normal marines that had an additional close combat attack and we're faster moving. Now unfortunately they have been outshined by veterans with backs. But that's because it seemed back then veterans were a waste, much like choosen for chaos are now.

For assault marines to really get some strength back something has to give. If vanguard vets are going to have all the access to the special cc weapons and sternguard get the special range then assault marines should get basic options. Like "replace your chainsword and bolt pistol with a bolter for free" or replace your bolt pistol for another chainsword for free or replace your chainsword for another pistol. That kind of stuff. Let them become masters of basic weapons. I could find a use for assault marines with bolters.

Wouldn't that just be lesser version of those flying Primaris Marines in Gravis armour?

Arcanis161 wrote:
I was thinking of using them just to tie up some dangerous enemy unit for a turn or two. Are Assault Marines too expensive for that? What would be better/cheaper then? Scouts maybe, but you would have to make sure you deploy after your opponent.

Yes, that is actually what you use them for. That and jumping tanks. If you just connect with most units they can't shoot next turn. The jump pack gives them a good move and imo, more importantly, "deep strike."

Bought bare bones, neither Vanguard or Assault Squads do much damage, so if you're just looking to run interference, the cheaper option has its place.

giving assault marines more attacks or cutting their price seems the best way to do it. if each one had 3 attacks (including chainsword bonus) they'd be a bit better

Arcanis161 wrote:
I was thinking of using them just to tie up some dangerous enemy unit for a turn or two. Are Assault Marines too expensive for that? What would be better/cheaper then? Scouts maybe, but you would have to make sure you deploy after your opponent.

That's pretty much exclusively what I use jump troops for, and what I've been saying you should use assault troops for.

Just because it can't kill it doesn't make it bad. Locking a 200 point tank in combat with 80 points of Assault Troops for a turn or two, even if they do absolutely nothing to it before falling back and letting your Lascannons deal with it, is well worth their cost.


I'd rather them be cheap than them be killy, really. A cheap fast unit with FLY opens up tactical possibilities and is a significant threat, an expensive-but-killy unit offers nothing new and just competes with other options that do the same thing.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


Jump "assault" troops are kind of mediocre as an idea, especially when there are much faster options available (e.g. bikes).

Bikers can't assault 2-d floors.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Arcanis161 wrote:
I was thinking of using them just to tie up some dangerous enemy unit for a turn or two. Are Assault Marines too expensive for that? What would be better/cheaper then? Scouts maybe, but you would have to make sure you deploy after your opponent.

That's pretty much exclusively what I use jump troops for, and what I've been saying you should use assault troops for.

Just because it can't kill it doesn't make it bad. Locking a 200 point tank in combat with 80 points of Assault Troops for a turn or two, even if they do absolutely nothing to it before falling back and letting your Lascannons deal with it, is well worth their cost.


I'd rather them be cheap than them be killy, really. A cheap fast unit with FLY opens up tactical possibilities and is a significant threat, an expensive-but-killy unit offers nothing new and just competes with other options that do the same thing.

This is highly meta dependent because most xenos armies have flying vehicles that can't be tied up, and if you're facing Guard or CSM there's going to be a big screen of cheap models that have to be killed off before you can touch the vehicles. This is where the lethality of Khorne Berzerkers and Death Company is valuable, you reaaally need to clear out that screen if your plan is to tie up the enemy's shooting.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Arcanis161 wrote:
I was thinking of using them just to tie up some dangerous enemy unit for a turn or two. Are Assault Marines too expensive for that? What would be better/cheaper then? Scouts maybe, but you would have to make sure you deploy after your opponent.

That's pretty much exclusively what I use jump troops for, and what I've been saying you should use assault troops for.

Just because it can't kill it doesn't make it bad. Locking a 200 point tank in combat with 80 points of Assault Troops for a turn or two, even if they do absolutely nothing to it before falling back and letting your Lascannons deal with it, is well worth their cost.


I'd rather them be cheap than them be killy, really. A cheap fast unit with FLY opens up tactical possibilities and is a significant threat, an expensive-but-killy unit offers nothing new and just competes with other options that do the same thing.

This is highly meta dependent because most xenos armies have flying vehicles that can't be tied up, and if you're facing Guard or CSM there's going to be a big screen of cheap models that have to be killed off before you can touch the vehicles. This is where the lethality of Khorne Berzerkers and Death Company is valuable, you reaaally need to clear out that screen if your plan is to tie up the enemy's shooting.

Hence Fly.

Anyway, it takes around 3x the cost of something to kill it off, as a general rule of thumb, so it's pretty efficient to tie things up with cheap, fast troops. They don't even have to have melee weapons.


It is most definitely meta-dependent. My local store's meta is super saturated with Space Marines and their treasonous brethren, and those who aren't Space Marines are Imperial Guard, Tyranids, or Orks. Though even going in against the Orks can be pretty valuable, since you just have to kill off 10 of the boyz for that 80-point squad to have been totally worth it.

Of course, fast cheap assault units can still be leveraged against armies that can Fly, but they do lose a lot of their strength, and it's not terrible to have them in your list if you're not list tailoring.


It's meta dependent, but so is almost everything. I'd probably build my TAC list very differently if my meta was entirely flavors of Eldar and Tau.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Arcanis161 wrote:
I was thinking of using them just to tie up some dangerous enemy unit for a turn or two. Are Assault Marines too expensive for that? What would be better/cheaper then? Scouts maybe, but you would have to make sure you deploy after your opponent.

That's pretty much exclusively what I use jump troops for, and what I've been saying you should use assault troops for.

Just because it can't kill it doesn't make it bad. Locking a 200 point tank in combat with 80 points of Assault Troops for a turn or two, even if they do absolutely nothing to it before falling back and letting your Lascannons deal with it, is well worth their cost.


I'd rather them be cheap than them be killy, really. A cheap fast unit with FLY opens up tactical possibilities and is a significant threat, an expensive-but-killy unit offers nothing new and just competes with other options that do the same thing.

Nobody is arguing Assault Marines should be as killy as Vanguard. The point is that the Vanguard are only 10 points more to do that and inflict more wounds. THEN they can be equipped silly.

 Zewrath wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
Back in the day assault marines were normal marines that had an additional close combat attack and we're faster moving. Now unfortunately they have been outshined by veterans with backs. But that's because it seemed back then veterans were a waste, much like choosen for chaos are now.

For assault marines to really get some strength back something has to give. If vanguard vets are going to have all the access to the special cc weapons and sternguard get the special range then assault marines should get basic options. Like "replace your chainsword and bolt pistol with a bolter for free" or replace your bolt pistol for another chainsword for free or replace your chainsword for another pistol. That kind of stuff. Let them become masters of basic weapons. I could find a use for assault marines with bolters.

Wouldn't that just be lesser version of those flying Primaris Marines in Gravis armour?

I am not sure, I don't have any primaris marines myself so I haven't really looked at them.

I guess the other side of the problem is assault marines are more mobile and better at close combat but that's not saying much now days. Would simply making them a troop choice help any? Then your options are 1 shot at 24/2 at 12 with tacticals or 1 shot at 12, but 12" movement. Still don't know if that fixes the problem but at least they have a different roll now as fast objective holders.

Azuza001 wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
Back in the day assault marines were normal marines that had an additional close combat attack and we're faster moving. Now unfortunately they have been outshined by veterans with backs. But that's because it seemed back then veterans were a waste, much like choosen for chaos are now.

For assault marines to really get some strength back something has to give. If vanguard vets are going to have all the access to the special cc weapons and sternguard get the special range then assault marines should get basic options. Like "replace your chainsword and bolt pistol with a bolter for free" or replace your bolt pistol for another chainsword for free or replace your chainsword for another pistol. That kind of stuff. Let them become masters of basic weapons. I could find a use for assault marines with bolters.

Wouldn't that just be lesser version of those flying Primaris Marines in Gravis armour?

I am not sure, I don't have any primaris marines myself so I haven't really looked at them.

I guess the other side of the problem is assault marines are more mobile and better at close combat but that's not saying much now days. Would simply making them a troop choice help any? Then your options are 1 shot at 24/2 at 12 with tacticals or 1 shot at 12, but 12" movement. Still don't know if that fixes the problem but at least they have a different roll now as fast objective holders.

A lot of people dont consider troops to be too valuable but it would be nice. i feel it would simply be easier to lower their costs.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Arcanis161 wrote:
I was thinking of using them just to tie up some dangerous enemy unit for a turn or two. Are Assault Marines too expensive for that? What would be better/cheaper then? Scouts maybe, but you would have to make sure you deploy after your opponent.

That's pretty much exclusively what I use jump troops for, and what I've been saying you should use assault troops for.

Just because it can't kill it doesn't make it bad. Locking a 200 point tank in combat with 80 points of Assault Troops for a turn or two, even if they do absolutely nothing to it before falling back and letting your Lascannons deal with it, is well worth their cost.


I'd rather them be cheap than them be killy, really. A cheap fast unit with FLY opens up tactical possibilities and is a significant threat, an expensive-but-killy unit offers nothing new and just competes with other options that do the same thing.

Nobody is arguing Assault Marines should be as killy as Vanguard. The point is that the Vanguard are only 10 points more to do that and inflict more wounds. THEN they can be equipped silly.

I don't think I ever said that.

I don't consider Vanguard killy either. I was commenting on the whole "ASM are bad because enemies can leave melee" thing, and "bad because doesn't kill things" thing.

I suppose if your playing power level they work ok. It's 10 pl for 10 assault marines vs 15 for 10 vanguard. Depending on their role if you want the assault marines for their mobility and flamers then maybe there is a use? Vanguard can definitely hit harder but if your swarm hunting plasma pistols don't matter as much. Idk
... keep hoping we figure something out.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Because there really isn't one. Flamers aren't good so being able to spam them doesn't work (though bikers would do that better anyway) and for TWO more points per model you can get Vanguard instead. They're not so cheap that you can argue to fill the Fast Attack slot for a Brigade. They simply can't do anything well.

There are people defending them as a choice in another thread, so I figured to make this thread as a dedicated discussion instead.

In the 4th edition of 40k you could take the doctrin 'blessed be the warrior' which allowed you to take Assult marines as elite and or troops, resultnatly at 3point a modal the elite troops could have either or the furious assult rule or the tank hunter abillity.

 Desubot wrote:


that and a hand full of armies that have really good screen units.

Curious- what armies do and don't, in your opinion?

Tau, Guard, and Nids obviously do. Orks are an army of screen units.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Desubot wrote:


that and a hand full of armies that have really good screen units.

Curious- what armies do and don't, in your opinion?

Tau, Guard, and Nids obviously do. Orks are an army of screen units.

Cultists and Scouts are...okay. Sisters don't have much of one at 9 points a model I think. Grey Knights get nothing. Scarabs for Necrons are alright, and Wraiths are good. Genestealer Cults operate like Guard. Vanguard/Rangers are...there.

Realistically most armies can screen well enough to screw up most attempts to tie up their expensive units.

The only real exception is normal SM, who only have scouts which are expensive and fragile for cost. Tau (and maybe sisters) are also under the curve atm but only by a little, should be fixed by the eventual codices like what happened for admech.

SilverAlien wrote:
Realistically most armies can screen well enough to screw up most attempts to tie up their expensive units.

The only real exception is normal SM, who only have scouts which are expensive and fragile for cost. Tau (and maybe sisters) are also under the curve atm but only by a little, should be fixed by the eventual codices like what happened for admech.

Well the space marines have to have some kind of weakness, they cant be super human at everything.

Marines have a ton of weaknesses in 8th though. They lose more points to almost every weapon in the game than an average army.

What is their point? To die in service to the Emperor, duh.

Assault Marines are basically Tactical Marines with fewer options and can move faster. They suffer from all the drawbacks of a Tactical Squad- OK at everything, master of nothing. They use to be a good close combat unit, but then all Space Marines got Bolt Pistols and an option for a close combat weapon.

So now their big advantage is fast movement and ignoring terrain in an edition where everyone got faster and terrain is marginalized. If they got some kind of rule like "When this unit uses it's Jump Pack, (moves more then 6") all enemy models suffer -1 to hit when shooting at them" would help them out tremendously. The loss of Hammer of Wrath really hurt these guys. The old tactic of "Suicide with Melta Guns and Melta Bombs" is gone in this edition. Shooting is much more important in this edition then previously, and if you make it into close combat, it's brutal. Getting there is the problem, and moving a bit faster helps Assault Marines to get into close combat maybe a turn early. Once in close combat, you basically have a Tactical Squad fighting.

Basically, there is no point to the Assault Squad unless you have some kind of chapter trait or formation that makes them better. Otherwise, you would be better off taking Inceptors who out shoot, out fight, and out last Assault Marines in every category.

Blackdheild_Barbarian wrote:
Well the space marines have to have some kind of weakness, they cant be super human at everything.

Vanilla Marines aren't actually that great at most things at the moment, besides having some excellent named characters. Also some of the best transports currently, unless that changed in CA or one of the other codices leapfrogged them. Flyers and tanks are good but not amazing atm, basically on curve sitting in the middle. Everything else is, to me knowledge, either bad or at least below average.

Which is a secondary problem with assault marines: they are hampered by being tied to the same pricing as tactical marines, who are also fairly trash.