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Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Hmm, the discussion here goes into the direction of building a BA army around Primaris.
So it seems that something went wrong with the new codex.

Wrong?

Pretty sure adding all the new stuff to the codex was so that people could use it?

Well, I think the signature units of the BA codex, including special characters, DC, and Baal Predator, should have been designed by GW such that BA players are eager to use them. Nobody seems to be too enthusiastic about them. Sorry for my comments. Just wondering. I'll pick my codex up next Saturday.

 wuestenfux wrote:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Hmm, the discussion here goes into the direction of building a BA army around Primaris.
So it seems that something went wrong with the new codex.

Wrong?

Pretty sure adding all the new stuff to the codex was so that people could use it?

Well, I think the signature units of the BA codex, including special characters, DC, and Baal Predator, should have been designed by GW such that BA players are eager to use them. Nobody seems to be too enthusiastic about them. Sorry for my comments. Just wondering. I'll pick my codex up next Saturday.

If you scroll back through the thread and previous threads you’ll see a lot of people are pretty happy with DC and will be using them a lot. Same as Sanguinary Guard now and a few of the names characters. I think most of what we have has been said to be pretty good, except for maybe Baal Predators which is unfortunate. Otherwise Primaris have only really been mentioned a couple of times and I’m just glad they’re also useful to us

Some BA stuff is still useless, like blood talons and baal preds. Blood talons arent as bad as they used to be, but still inferior to fists, and more expensive. The baal pred is 144 pts. with TAC, a razorback with TAC is 114 pts. has one wound less, but can carry 6 models. Baal pred can race up to 24" down the battlefield with the lucifer engine stratagem, but cant shoot because it advanced and only has heavy weapons. It should be able to fire all its flame weapons for the 30 additional pts.

Libby Dread:
I just realized that he is a character with less than 10 wounds, so he can hide behind units. This itself is huge. So carry on... he is amazing!

 wuestenfux wrote:
Hmm, the discussion here goes into the direction of building a BA army around Primaris.
So it seems that something went wrong with the new codex.

Most Primaris units are still not that great. The only Primaris unit I would cosinder using in a competitive Blood Angels list are Inceptors.

Some of the named characters are really powerful and Death Company is probably the best unit in the codex. Librarian Dreadnoughts and Sanguinary Guard are also good. Only Baal Predators and the other Dreadnoughts kind of suck.

The codex is great in my opinion.

 Astmeister wrote:
Libby Dread:
I just realized that he is a character with less than 10 wounds, so he can hide behind units. This itself is huge. So carry on... he is amazing!

Indeed, this makes him hard to destroy when he's not the closest target.
Sniper rifles against vehicles are not very effective.

If you had to choose, would you choose the primaris ancient with the banner of 5+ feel no pain, or a librarian? I was considering taking a unit of 4 Aggressors and a primaris librarian in a repulsor and then they get out, shoot everything then charge with 3 powerfist attacks each (4 for sergeant) from the librarian and then d3 extra for himself. Alternatively I could have a cool banner dude going with whoever needs 5+ feel no pain. I sort of need everything else in my list

Some notes on the codex:

Scout sergeants can't take items from the sergeant weapons list, so atleast I need to redo my storm bolters as boltguns.

Company champion's is lacking a combat shield from it's wargear, although in the dataslate it has 5+ inv save..

Non-tactical question I would hope someone to comment. If I'm planning on using regularly a captain with visions of sanguinius, would you paint your captain as red or black, like Tycho the lost? I'm going to give him the thunder hammer and an inferno pistol with jump pack. Planning on using a sanguinary guard torso and legs with the groin cloth and a non-helmet head. 2nd option would be to use a DC chap model, just kitbash the crozius to hammer.. not sure if the skull head can be replaced..

Out of curiosity, can anyone confirm that Death Company are not immune to morale?

I played against BA last night, he had just picked up the codex, and both of us were shocked when he lost units to morale. We couldn't find anything to help them out on that front.

Yeah, he's called Astorath. Makes them immune to morale. Astorath also lets any BA unit within 6" reroll misses in CC. Much better than Lemartes. Oh, and he has 2+ armor.

Astorath grants 6" autopass to morale. SG ancient with banner for example gives +1 and like all SM everything gets to reroll failed morale tests. You can give any of your warlords the heroic bearing WT which grants also the above autopass. Although Astorath gets another fixed WT with also the morale autopass, so his like double WT dude. Althought I think Lemmy is still bettee, but why not take both and two blobs of DC, like I'm planning.

I don't think there's much of a case for Lemartes being better than Astorath. Especially with the movement stratagem.

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, he's called Astorath. Makes them immune to morale. Astorath also lets any BA unit within 6" reroll misses in CC. Much better than Lemartes. Oh, and he has 2+ armor.

Yeah, Astorath was on the table and placement made one Death Co group immune. The others ran away after heavy casualties :( SAD.

Moral of the story: only use one DC squad that's bigger than 5. And use Astorath with the big squad.

It's units, not models. So you only need one model to be within the 6" radius OR you mean't the other DC units..

Martel732 wrote:
I don't think there's much of a case for Lemartes being better than Astorath. Especially with the movement stratagem.

With the stratagems Astorath+big blob is probably better than Lem+MSU.

Yeah the other DC units. It's easy to keep a 15 man unit with 6" of Astorath. The other units, you probably want else where, so they need to be small.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't think there's much of a case for Lemartes being better than Astorath. Especially with the movement stratagem.

With the stratagems Astorath+big blob is probably better than Lem+MSU.

Forlorn fury alone wrecks a lot of face. There's no reason to get fancy. Get 15 dudes immune to morale. Get 12+D6 free movement. Profit.

 wuestenfux wrote:

Well, I think the signature units of the BA codex, including special characters, DC, and Baal Predator, should have been designed by GW such that BA players are eager to use them. Nobody seems to be too enthusiastic about them. Sorry for my comments. Just wondering. I'll pick my codex up next Saturday.

I was absolutely blown away when I read our characters for the first time and DC and Sanguinary guard are amazing. Both of which are incredible CC units, albeit, for killing different things which is great because I don't feel bad taking both in a list.

The primaris are wholly underwhelming to me, and in most cases over costed by a fair margin. I'm coming around on the intercessors for BA though, as they are fairly cheap (after CA changes), good objective campers with 2 wounds and good range with the stalker bolt rifle and 2 attacks if they get charged. The rest of them i'm not sold on, certainly not for BA. I would love to like inceptors but 3 models for 135 points is just not something I have been able to talk myself into, even after they have came down like 40% in points. I'm still salty that they started at 225 points for 3 models.....ridiculous.

I think we have what amounts to an incredible alpha and beta strike army and i'm super pleased with the rules and the book. It'll probably turn out not to be as good as i'm thinking, but wither way, a huge step in the right direction imo.

Martel732 wrote:
Moral of the story: only use one DC squad that's bigger than 5. And use Astorath with the big squad.

I lthink i'm going to go 2 10 man squads with Lemartes. He allows them to use his LD 9 for morale tests, has the re-rolls to hit, but more importantly, I don't have to waste 2 CPs on forlorn fury, because of the re-rolls to charge, and I can instead use them on another DS squad of Sang guard, and still have plenty left for upon wings of fire, and decent of angels in later turns.

Sanguinary guard are pretty brutal when combined with the relic banner. Cast shield of sanguiniuis on them for extra lulz, although most of the time, that's not useful.

Martel732 wrote:
Sanguinary guard are pretty brutal when combined with the relic banner. Cast shield of sanguiniuis on them for extra lulz, although most of the time, that's not useful.

I like this and am doing my best to keep this shoehorned into any list I write.

Speaking of the relic banner, has anyone had any experience with the Ancient w/ banner buffing Mephiston? 2+ Armor save followed by two 5+ chances to ignore wounds doesn't seem like something we should be ignoring on such a flexible beat-stick model. I plan on throwing him into my lists, maybe even as my Warlord, and have the Relic Banner bearing follow him around.

Out of break time *waves*

Martel732 wrote:
I don't think there's much of a case for Lemartes being better than Astorath. Especially with the movement stratagem.

I think Lemartes is better. Even with 3D6 you will fail about 26% of your charges after deep striking. With Lemartes your chance of getting into close combat is almost 94%. He is also cheaper and better in close combat. If I had to decide between both of them, I would choose Lemartes. A re-rollable LD9 isn't too bad. Remember that you can't use Mass of Doom after deep striking. This makes Astorath much worse in my opinion.

Martel732 wrote:
Sanguinary guard are pretty brutal when combined with the relic banner. Cast shield of sanguiniuis on them for extra lulz, although most of the time, that's not useful.

The banner is good, but it only affects models within 6" and not units. Which is a real bummer for a unit that wants to deepstrike. You also have so many other great relics. Sanguinary Guard is good, but I would always prefer another unit of Death Company.

Who said anything about deep striking?

There are many, many situations where sg are better than dc.

Scallywag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Sanguinary guard are pretty brutal when combined with the relic banner. Cast shield of sanguiniuis on them for extra lulz, although most of the time, that's not useful.

The banner is good, but it only affects models within 6" and not units. Which is a real bummer for a unit that wants to deepstrike. You also have so many other great relics. Sanguinary Guard is good, but I would always prefer another unit of Death Company.

I still can't bring myself to run Death Company. Vanguard Vets are so good and cheap for what I need them to do. And anything that can't be reliably killed by Chainswords, I would rather shoot with Twin-Las Dreads, or Missile Devs.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:


I still can't bring myself to run Death Company.

that's crazy...

Martel732 wrote:
Who said anything about deep striking?

There are many, many situations where sg are better than dc.

If you don't deep strike your Sanguinary Guard, you are doing something wrong. There is no other good way to deliver them.

Well, then tell me in which situations Sanguinary Guard are better and how you plan to get them into combat.

I am not saying that they are bad, they are actually quite good, but in a competitive environment I would always prefer Death Company.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:

I still can't bring myself to run Death Company. Vanguard Vets are so good and cheap for what I need them to do. And anything that can't be reliably killed by Chainswords, I would rather shoot with Twin-Las Dreads, or Missile Devs.

Vanguard Veterans are good, but for just 2 more points Death Company are so much better. They get +1 attack, a 6+++ and profit from all the great buffs (especially re-rollable charges and attacks from Lemartes). You can also deep strike 15 of them instead of "only" 10 Vanguard Veterans. You can also charge with two large units in the first turn, using Forlorn Fury and Descent of Angels. The only really cool thing about Vanguard Veterans are the storm shields.

I would say Sanguinary guard are better against heavy multi wound infantry, vehicles, multi wound monsters etc, where as DC excel against large mobs of lighter infantry, or 1 wound infantry.

Granted, they can get so many attacks that they can threaten most things, but as for preferred targets, if my opponent has some of these things I listed, that's how I would "aim" my Sanguinary guard vs my DC, but I like running them both.

Thing is, we have so buffs covered by our SCs, psychic powers, relics, and banners every unit can be pretty crazy. Got to spread the love around rather then super buffing a single unit, at least that's my thought process

Sanguinary guard are almost twice as good against small arms.

My deep strike comment was about dc. I'm probably not deep striking them, so no need for lemartes.

Scallywag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Who said anything about deep striking?

There are many, many situations where sg are better than dc.

If you don't deep strike your Sanguinary Guard, you are doing something wrong. There is no other good way to deliver them.

Well, then tell me in which situations Sanguinary Guard are better and how you plan to get them into combat.

I am not saying that they are bad, they are actually quite good, but in a competitive environment I would always prefer Death Company.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:

I still can't bring myself to run Death Company. Vanguard Vets are so good and cheap for what I need them to do. And anything that can't be reliably killed by Chainswords, I would rather shoot with Twin-Las Dreads, or Missile Devs.

Vanguard Veterans are good, but for just 2 more points Death Company are so much better. They get +1 attack, a 6+++ and profit from all the great buffs (especially re-rollable charges and attacks from Lemartes). You can also deep strike 15 of them instead of "only" 10 Vanguard Veterans. You can also charge with two large units in the first turn, using Forlorn Fury and Descent of Angels. The only really cool thing about Vanguard Veterans are the storm shields.

for what it’s worth, vanguard can take two chainswords. No one is likely to stay in combat with you, but your death company will likely be charged at some point which means vanguard vet would have more attacks. Yes, I realize it’s a specific scenario lol.

Every time I try to tweak the list I'm building towards, it's looking more and more tempting to make more of an herohammer version of it. Astorath, Mephiston, Lemartes, Pimped out Librarian dread, Captain with death visions of the sanguinius.. All those can single handedly contribute in a fight if charging and inv. saves all-around (shield of sang.. for the psykers). Do you guys still think that atleast a single batallion is a necessity in a competitive mono-BA army? btw I said that alound.. both in the same sentence.. I'll take that back.. I mean semi-competitive mono-BA army.

Tactically irrelevant stuff below:

Scallywag wrote:

 NH Gunsmith wrote:

I still can't bring myself to run Death Company. Vanguard Vets are so good and cheap for what I need them to do. And anything that can't be reliably killed by Chainswords, I would rather shoot with Twin-Las Dreads, or Missile Devs.

Vanguard Veterans are good, but for just 2 more points Death Company are so much better. They get +1 attack, a 6+++ and profit from all the great buffs (especially re-rollable charges and attacks from Lemartes). You can also deep strike 15 of them instead of "only" 10 Vanguard Veterans. You can also charge with two large units in the first turn, using Forlorn Fury and Descent of Angels. The only really cool thing about Vanguard Veterans are the storm shields.

True. Price difference is pretty low, however that 20 points saved makes the difference for me when running my army as a double Battalion Detachment for 9 CP.

This is what I ran last weekend and was very happy with how it went:



Anything big I needed to destroy got hit with heavy weapons, while the Vanguard Vets and Librarian tied up/destroyed a lot of my opponents infantry. Mephiston assassinated every buff character he could get his hands (well, sword) on.

The Tactical Squads grabbed objectives and pushed forwards in Rhinos to be my second wave. The Dreadnoughts probably didn't need their Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons in those games on Saturday, but I like having them to take care of big things that rush my army like Daemon Princes.

I am finding that a combined arms approach is the way to go for me.