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licclerich wrote:
Bolt Action 1 did not have templetes...version 2 does..i wonder why?

Because everyone makes mistakes?

ERJAK wrote:

licclerich wrote:
Bolt Action 1 did not have templetes...version 2 does..i wonder why?

Because everyone makes mistakes?

And then they correct those mistakes in version 2.

Jbz` wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Pancakey wrote:
Yeah the 30" congo lines for buffs are just hideous.

So were perfectly spaced out units that also conga lined to avoid as much of a template as possible.

Couldn't both be dealt with by forcing models to all be within (X) inches of the squad leader (Sergeant/Nob etc)

"Fluff" reason could be they need to hear the squad leader's orders so can't go too far from them (I imagine units without a character leader could have one treated as it for such purposes. Maybe a use for Ld beyond morale- use that for the distance they can be from the focal model- e with a boost for super large horde units)

It gets confusing with units that dont have squad leaders additionally its going to look even more wonky seeing everyone in massive clumps.

I used to miss templates, as they were cool to use (flamer ones especially.)

However after playing a few games of 8th, I've come to prefer the dice system. It is quicker and easier.

Another odd thing that it has allowed me to do (not something I really use as a tactical advantage) is actually advance guard units in "ordered lines of men" as described in the fluff, something that would have been suicidal with templates. Looks really cool on the tabletop.

Precisely

Templates are bad and you should feel bad for liking them...

...and scatter dice...
...and artillery dice...
...and rapid fire dice...
...and any dice that aren't simple d6s when playing this game.

The previous statement was purely hyperbolic opinion, enjoy.

But really, you should feel bad.

You're a horrible person.

Why do you hate nice things? and puppies?

Templates are a mechanic suited to an RPG or skirmish scale game. There, they work well enough when implemented properly.

At the scale of a 40k game, they dont work so fine. Too much fiddlyness, too many points of argumentation, too much time, etc.

pismakron wrote:
Templates were a garbage mechanic that often slowed the game down to half speed. Furthermore, they often lead to lengthy discussions because every template application relied heavily on judgement calls. I don't miss units like burnas or wyverns spitting out 4000 templates a second, or waiting on my opponent to meticulously move his ocean of Hormagaunts, keeping every single model 2" away from its neighbour.

The replacement for templates and scatter die, essentially D6 shots, is not really satisfactory. But at least the game is not slowed or killed by rolling a single die.

This. Templates slowed the game down some much if your opponent was trying to mitigate the amount of models that could be covered in the movement phase. And if you ever played an army that had like 10 of them in it the shooting phase took forever, especially if there was "discussion" about what models were covered and the direction of the scatter dice.

I miss scattering. Now if I miss with an artillery piece, the shell just...fades off somewhere.

The problem IMO with the new mechanic is that templates were supposed to represent weapons that almost never missed entirely because of their large blast radius, but had variable damage depending on how many models were caught in the blast. Now they feel more like weird variable-rate-of-fire machine guns where you can potentially hit a single target multiple times with one shell and roll independently to hit for each part of the shot. And from an efficiency point of view they're almost always worse than weapons that don't have a random number of shots. Having to roll to discard some of your shots before you even roll to hit is just another opportunity to lose firepower, and it resulted in things like the index LRBT averaging less than one wound per shot. This then forces GW to compensate with ridiculous buffs like giving LRBTs double the number of shots, superheavies getting a free additional D6, etc.

A much better mechanic would be to keep the random dice, but make them automatically hit like flamers except you can't get more hits than the number of models in the unit. You can't miss entirely, but you might roll badly and only hit one model. Then remove the LRBT double shots rule, consider nerfing Baneblades back down, etc. Alternatively, if you want a more complicated rule that keeps BS relevant, you could do something like this:

Blast Weapons:
Some weapons have Blast X (where X is D3, D6, etc) in their special rules. Immediately after resolving the shot(s) for this weapon the target unit suffers an additional X hits, up to the number of remaining models in the unit, at half the strength value of the weapon. These additional hits apply even if all normal shots for the weapon miss.

Under this rule a LRBT's main gun might be Heavy 1, STR 8, AP -2, D D3, Blast D6. You still care about BS for that STR 8 main shot, but now you have a lot fewer turns where it does nothing.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
I miss Templates and scatter dice a lot.

I feel they suffered from GWs poor implimentation and excessive use than being a poor concept.

I also really don't get why everyone is suddenly thrilled they don't have to space their units out so carefully when every discussion on the current competative meta is about carefully spacing your units out to deny deepstrike, congaline to a specific model, to hang out in this guys aura.

If you're not playing competatively, you don't have to do that, but just as much you never had to spent your movement phase dedicated to ensuring I hit less models with my battlecannon, either.

If you're playing games with people whom you have _actual arguements_ that neither of you enjoy about the scatter dice, I strongly suspect you're playing with the wrong people, and the removal of the scatter dice is unlikely to have turned your opponent from TFG till your best bro.
Likely now you're arguing about some obsecure loopholl in the rules, like if Tallarn transports can outflank with non tallarn infantry in using the stratagem.

Problem players always exist. That's not the scatter dice's fault. 40k's rules have never held up under super compeative play, but stuff like scatter dice and templates often made it more fun for casual play. I miss that. It is, as people keep repeatedly noting, a lot more bland now.

I agree with everything that has been said here, the only thing probably being replacing the scatter die itself with a D6 scatter or making it "roll to hit each model under the template" or so. Scatter angles were always more prone to approximation. But the whole "obscure loophole" observation is spot-on.

Seriously, today's templates hit about the same amount of models. You only think they killed more because of the AP system working differently.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 amanita wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 godardc wrote:
...They were efficient and fun, and 40 is a game, game are supposed to be fun.

No. Games are what ever you want out of them. They aren't exclusively for fun. There is a reason some people actually choose to play games competitvely

I
Why do people believe that 'fun' and 'competitive' are mutually exclusive?

Yeah man, you tell him

Um, he's replying to you. Forget to log out of the old alt account or something there?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Seriously, today's templates hit about the same amount of models. You only think they killed more because of the AP system working differently.

They really don't. A LRBT's gun in 8th edition is D6 shots at a 4+ to hit, averaging 1.75 hits. A LRBT's gun in 7th edition usually had a minimum of 2-3 hits, and often 3-5. A plasma cannon on that LRBT is D3 shots at a 4+ to hit, averaging 1 hit with a significant chance of zero. That same plasma cannon in 7th had a minimum of 1 hit that was almost guaranteed, and could hit more models if you caught a target at less than 2" coherency. Hit rates have gone down significantly in 8th, on top of the reduction in overall damage from the to-wound table making it much harder to wound on a 2+ and the AP system making armor saves a lot more effective.

About the scatter dice, why hasn't anyone at GW thought to make a simple spinner with a laser sticking out of the arrowhead to represent direction so that the scatter would be easily determined? Could be a great little money-maker and very novel, solve the scatter issue and allow flamers to keep working like flamers, mortars and big gunz to keep working like mortars and big gunz and so on.
As for people complaining about how many doods being under a template, I would only play those fools once. Then I would not talk to them in a friendly tone again. Screw that noise. Maybe after an apology for having a bad day, a second or even third chance may be warranted but past that, any fool who gets hung up on a template placement and who can't see his/her way to rolling a d6 to sort things out or let it go to a third party to judge for that matter, well, better off painting than playing a game with such an animal again.
Templates were a counter to densely packed cheap troops on an already small tabletop, made model placement more important, and overall added strategy to army composition and movement.
But, when sales-snakes level everything down to idiot-level, we get super-buffmander lotto-hammer with extra bling.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Seriously, today's templates hit about the same amount of models. You only think they killed more because of the AP system working differently.

They really don't. A LRBT's gun in 8th edition is D6 shots at a 4+ to hit, averaging 1.75 hits. A LRBT's gun in 7th edition usually had a minimum of 2-3 hits, and often 3-5. A plasma cannon on that LRBT is D3 shots at a 4+ to hit, averaging 1 hit with a significant chance of zero. That same plasma cannon in 7th had a minimum of 1 hit that was almost guaranteed, and could hit more models if you caught a target at less than 2" coherency. Hit rates have gone down significantly in 8th, on top of the reduction in overall damage from the to-wound table making it much harder to wound on a 2+ and the AP system making armor saves a lot more effective.

Dude, I exalt so many of your posts, I would buy the coffee-table picture book compendium.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 xeen wrote:

pismakron wrote:
Templates were a garbage mechanic that often slowed the game down to half speed. Furthermore, they often lead to lengthy discussions because every template application relied heavily on judgement calls. I don't miss units like burnas or wyverns spitting out 4000 templates a second, or waiting on my opponent to meticulously move his ocean of Hormagaunts, keeping every single model 2" away from its neighbour.

The replacement for templates and scatter die, essentially D6 shots, is not really satisfactory. But at least the game is not slowed or killed by rolling a single die.

This. Templates slowed the game down some much if your opponent was trying to mitigate the amount of models that could be covered in the movement phase. And if you ever played an army that had like 10 of them in it the shooting phase took forever, especially if there was "discussion" about what models were covered and the direction of the scatter dice.

I can never understand why people are in such a hurry to get games over and done with when I spend most of my time wishing that I had time to sit for a good game with an old buddy and just getting the game to happen is the obstacle that stops it. This is supposed to be the best way to spend time, not a reason to hurry up and finish to do it again the same way with bad rules. Why? Better off one good long game full of heavy decisions and realistic interactions than a rapid-fire collectible card game with dice and a little hobby on the front end. I just don;t understand that mindset.

Oh, and for those hung up on getting to use ALL of their models every game, or playing some points level - 2000, 2500, 3000 - on a 6x4 table, complaining that templates discourage their packing dozens of models into a neat row, well, that is how it works in real life too - you don't wanna walk shoulder to shoulder, not since men added rifling to their gun barrels at the very least, and especially not since the grenade. So, yes, lots of guardsmen look cool all packed together, but this is to be discouraged from a tactical standpoint for obvious reasons. And, where the game does not discourage this practice, it breaks from realism in a rather avoidable way. Space your models or allow them to be blown to bits more easily, this is just how it is. You want to field large units of cheap infantry and avoid template weapons and mitigate damage from blast weapons, play on a larger table.

^ Well said.

And I'm sorry, but those who genuinely agonized over the use of templates are probably either playing against ass-hats or their opponents are.

Formosa places down template, rolls scatter "hey dude, lands there right?"
Opponent "yep"
Formosa "how many hits is that dude"
Opponent "looks like 5"
Formosa "cool"
Formosa rolls 5 dice for wounds

Wow.... really wish this was faster to play, maybe if they had me roll d6 for shots, then how ever many shots need rolling to hit, then wound.... wait.... how is this any faster or slower?

The real problem came in due to people (usually WAAC) trying to argue the point constantly, no that's 7 under the template !!! Kind of thing that slowed the game down, slightly.

 Formosa wrote:
Formosa places down template, rolls scatter "hey dude, lands there right?"
Opponent "yep"
Formosa "how many hits is that dude"
Opponent "looks like 5"
Formosa "cool"
Formosa rolls 5 dice for wounds

Wow.... really wish this was faster to play, maybe if they had me roll d6 for shots, then how ever many shots need rolling to hit, then wound.... wait.... how is this any faster or slower?

The real problem came in due to people (usually WAAC) trying to argue the point constantly, no that's 7 under the template !!! Kind of thing that slowed the game down, slightly.

40k has pretty much throughout its history been written assuming reasonable players, thankfully they are starting a slightly more defensive approach in righting now though.

Templates worked for reasonable people but a bit like "guess ranges" and "no pre-measuring" are easily abused and cause issues when playing some players that can easily be avoided.

It may be worth considering "splash" damage though on adjacent units - say add back a "blast" keyword that can be assigned to weapons

Blast Weapons
Some weapons cause large explosions and can cause harm over an extended area, calculate the number of hits on the target unit as normal - any unit within 3" of the target unit takes half this number of hits with a strength and SP reduced by one point - no individual model in adjacent units can take more than a single hit


Will cover the dense clustering of units, specifically close in characters (though limited to a single hit so this stops being a sniper weapon) and smaller clusters of small units around buff characters, but is likely faster.

Note this also punishes players spreading large units out as far as possible to deny deep striking

 Formosa wrote:
Formosa places down template, rolls scatter "hey dude, lands there right?"
Opponent "yep"
Formosa "how many hits is that dude"
Opponent "looks like 5"
Formosa "cool"
Formosa rolls 5 dice for wounds

Wow.... really wish this was faster to play, maybe if they had me roll d6 for shots, then how ever many shots need rolling to hit, then wound.... wait.... how is this any faster or slower?

The real problem came in due to people (usually WAAC) trying to argue the point constantly, no that's 7 under the template !!! Kind of thing that slowed the game down, slightly.

To be fair, you did skip the part where you took the time to figure out where exactly to place the template to get as many hits as possible (sometimes that is a quick endeavor, sometimes it is not) and you skipped the part where both you and your opponent had to measure out 2" between each model in a unit every movement phase and had to take the time to position them just right so a template would hit as little as possible, even with a scatter.

Are you really going to try and sit there and tell me with a straight face that any shooting phase involving Wyverns back when templates were a thing went faster than they do now?

Also, generally speaking, yes, rolling for the number of shots you get, rolling to hit, then rolling to wound is gonna go faster than placing the template to maximize your number of hits, rolling to scatter, moving the template as necessary, figuring out again how many models you hit, then rolling to wound, and repeating for as many shots as you get.

 Peregrine wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Seriously, today's templates hit about the same amount of models. You only think they killed more because of the AP system working differently.

They really don't. A LRBT's gun in 8th edition is D6 shots at a 4+ to hit, averaging 1.75 hits. A LRBT's gun in 7th edition usually had a minimum of 2-3 hits, and often 3-5. A plasma cannon on that LRBT is D3 shots at a 4+ to hit, averaging 1 hit with a significant chance of zero. That same plasma cannon in 7th had a minimum of 1 hit that was almost guaranteed, and could hit more models if you caught a target at less than 2" coherency. Hit rates have gone down significantly in 8th, on top of the reduction in overall damage from the to-wound table making it much harder to wound on a 2+ and the AP system making armor saves a lot more effective.

I'll disagree on that. If the Battle Cannon was hitting 2-3 models minimum, it wouldn't have been as bad as it was. Scattering + spacing made hitting 3 models a rare prospect, when you were more likely to get just 1 or 2. With the new Grinding Advance rule, you're getting an average of 7 shots, which is 3.5.

And don't get me started on the Plasma Cannon sponson. Nobody took Plasma Cannons! At least now with the average of 2 shots you're getting a hit, rather than hoping the shot lands on at least one guy.

The wounding and AP mechanic is what really makes it a worse prospect.

Mixed emotions as most above. I loved the visual of a template, and think the d6 replacement is woefully inadequate.
On the other hand, the first person I played with the 2" template for model spacing in movement (and you people know who you are...) was the complete opposite of the "feel" templates brought.
Overall...like the simpler new way, just needs the numbers to be fiddled so those weapons are worthwhile again

 jeff white wrote:
About the scatter dice, why hasn't anyone at GW thought to make a simple spinner with a laser sticking out of the arrowhead to represent direction so that the scatter would be easily determined? Could be a great little money-maker and very novel, solve the scatter issue and allow flamers to keep working like flamers, mortars and big gunz to keep working like mortars and big gunz and so on.
As for people complaining about how many doods being under a template, I would only play those fools once. Then I would not talk to them in a friendly tone again. Screw that noise. Maybe after an apology for having a bad day, a second or even third chance may be warranted but past that, any fool who gets hung up on a template placement and who can't see his/her way to rolling a d6 to sort things out or let it go to a third party to judge for that matter, well, better off painting than playing a game with such an animal again.
Templates were a counter to densely packed cheap troops on an already small tabletop, made model placement more important, and overall added strategy to army composition and movement.
But, when sales-snakes level everything down to idiot-level, we get super-buffmander lotto-hammer with extra bling.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Seriously, today's templates hit about the same amount of models. You only think they killed more because of the AP system working differently.

They really don't. A LRBT's gun in 8th edition is D6 shots at a 4+ to hit, averaging 1.75 hits. A LRBT's gun in 7th edition usually had a minimum of 2-3 hits, and often 3-5. A plasma cannon on that LRBT is D3 shots at a 4+ to hit, averaging 1 hit with a significant chance of zero. That same plasma cannon in 7th had a minimum of 1 hit that was almost guaranteed, and could hit more models if you caught a target at less than 2" coherency. Hit rates have gone down significantly in 8th, on top of the reduction in overall damage from the to-wound table making it much harder to wound on a 2+ and the AP system making armor saves a lot more effective.

Dude, I exalt so many of your posts, I would buy the coffee-table picture book compendium.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 xeen wrote:

pismakron wrote:
Templates were a garbage mechanic that often slowed the game down to half speed. Furthermore, they often lead to lengthy discussions because every template application relied heavily on judgement calls. I don't miss units like burnas or wyverns spitting out 4000 templates a second, or waiting on my opponent to meticulously move his ocean of Hormagaunts, keeping every single model 2" away from its neighbour.

The replacement for templates and scatter die, essentially D6 shots, is not really satisfactory. But at least the game is not slowed or killed by rolling a single die.

This. Templates slowed the game down some much if your opponent was trying to mitigate the amount of models that could be covered in the movement phase. And if you ever played an army that had like 10 of them in it the shooting phase took forever, especially if there was "discussion" about what models were covered and the direction of the scatter dice.

I can never understand why people are in such a hurry to get games over and done with when I spend most of my time wishing that I had time to sit for a good game with an old buddy and just getting the game to happen is the obstacle that stops it. This is supposed to be the best way to spend time, not a reason to hurry up and finish to do it again the same way with bad rules. Why? Better off one good long game full of heavy decisions and realistic interactions than a rapid-fire collectible card game with dice and a little hobby on the front end. I just don;t understand that mindset.

Oh, and for those hung up on getting to use ALL of their models every game, or playing some points level - 2000, 2500, 3000 - on a 6x4 table, complaining that templates discourage their packing dozens of models into a neat row, well, that is how it works in real life too - you don't wanna walk shoulder to shoulder, not since men added rifling to their gun barrels at the very least, and especially not since the grenade. So, yes, lots of guardsmen look cool all packed together, but this is to be discouraged from a tactical standpoint for obvious reasons. And, where the game does not discourage this practice, it breaks from realism in a rather avoidable way. Space your models or allow them to be blown to bits more easily, this is just how it is. You want to field large units of cheap infantry and avoid template weapons and mitigate damage from blast weapons, play on a larger table.

So just to give a response on the time thing. I love this game and wish I could take all day to play games. I have been playing since I was 13 years old. I am 37 now. But I don't have all day to play one game anymore. I have a few hours if I am lucky as I have a family and a job and time for hobbies is really limited. That is why I like that the game now plays quicker, because I want to try to get a game in the limited time I have to play. That is why I love a lot of the changes that 8th made. I understand your point that you liked the greater layer of rules, which is a fair opinion, but as for your comment "I just don;t understand that mindset." as to wanting to play quicker, this just letting you know where that mindset comes from. It is not to rush for the sake of rushing, but so people like me can even play. If the game took all day, I would have to sell my stuff because I don't have a full day to play a game. In fact that is one of the reasons I didn't really play 7th, because games just to so long. That is why I can't do tournaments (even though I would love too). So this is why some of us want a faster paced game.

 xeen wrote:

So just to give a response on the time thing. I love this game and wish I could take all day to play games. I have been playing since I was 13 years old. I am 37 now. But I don't have all day to play one game anymore. I have a few hours if I am lucky as I have a family and a job and time for hobbies is really limited. That is why I like that the game now plays quicker, because I want to try to get a game in the limited time I have to play. That is why I love a lot of the changes that 8th made. I understand your point that you liked the greater layer of rules, which is a fair opinion, but as for your comment "I just don;t understand that mindset." as to wanting to play quicker, this just letting you know where that mindset comes from. It is not to rush for the sake of rushing, but so people like me can even play. If the game took all day, I would have to sell my stuff because I don't have a full day to play a game. In fact that is one of the reasons I didn't really play 7th, because games just to so long. That is why I can't do tournaments (even though I would love too). So this is why some of us want a faster paced game.

Funny thing is, I don't find 8th to really be much faster.
2000 points before and after both take about the same time, certainly not all day affairs. 2-3 hours plus setup and cleanup.
The biggest gain for us has been advance instead of run. Greatly reduced double handling is a good change.

Zustiur wrote:

 xeen wrote:

So just to give a response on the time thing. I love this game and wish I could take all day to play games. I have been playing since I was 13 years old. I am 37 now. But I don't have all day to play one game anymore. I have a few hours if I am lucky as I have a family and a job and time for hobbies is really limited. That is why I like that the game now plays quicker, because I want to try to get a game in the limited time I have to play. That is why I love a lot of the changes that 8th made. I understand your point that you liked the greater layer of rules, which is a fair opinion, but as for your comment "I just don;t understand that mindset." as to wanting to play quicker, this just letting you know where that mindset comes from. It is not to rush for the sake of rushing, but so people like me can even play. If the game took all day, I would have to sell my stuff because I don't have a full day to play a game. In fact that is one of the reasons I didn't really play 7th, because games just to so long. That is why I can't do tournaments (even though I would love too). So this is why some of us want a faster paced game.

Funny thing is, I don't find 8th to really be much faster.
2000 points before and after both take about the same time, certainly not all day affairs. 2-3 hours plus setup and cleanup.
The biggest gain for us has been advance instead of run. Greatly reduced double handling is a good change.

And biggest speed up is lack of need for playing past turn 1. Turn 1 takes about as long as turn 1 of 7th ed or maybe even more. But after that no need to move models or roll dice all that much. And with 2 shooty armies even less reason to move models than before thanks to the 8th ed terrain rules that basically means any board not composed of big solid blocks is as good as open field=no need to manouver to say get shooting unit into position where it can ignore terrain.

Wonder how long before players do the ultimate speed boost. Forget the models! Just roll dice and see the casualties. 8th ed certainly works fairly well for that one. Models are basically just wound counters now but that can be done by dice and pen&paper as well. Remove deployment and bother of moving models and game goes even faster.

Yeah but is the game longer b.c more people are playing with more models? I mean i'm playing basically the same DE list and model count but my 5 turn games are for sure faster. Same for my Harlequins.

My Nids are much slower b.c i'm playing with gants, Genestealers now rather than 15 models.

I find (personally) that the new 'blast' system is actually heavily detrimental to both gameplay and the experience.
Back in 7th my LRBT fired a 5" blast that would catch on average 3 models (usually more in the crazy huge games some opponents wanted) and even if they missed and scattered miles the chance was they would still hit something. Hell, I once had a foolish opponent position several units close together and managed to land casualties on each of them, but anyway. Templates where also faster as it was simply a case of placing the template, rolling the relevant scatter and counting the number of hits and rolling to wound.

These days I have to roll a D6 to find how many shots I get, then I have to roll y shots worth of D6 to see how many times I hit, then I have to roll to wound. It not only takes longer (and is utterly daft) but I now average about 1 dead model per shot. wow, a whole casualty! Its not like the Battle Cannon used to be able to really hurt bunched units. And where do those missed shots go? To the unit stood right next to the target? Nope, they just vanish unto the abyss. My LRBT used to make MEQ's cry and wet themselves in fear. Now they throw snowballs.

 master of ordinance wrote:
I find (personally) that the new 'blast' system is actually heavily detrimental to both gameplay and the experience.
Back in 7th my LRBT fired a 5" blast that would catch on average 3 models (usually more in the crazy huge games some opponents wanted) and even if they missed and scattered miles the chance was they would still hit something. Hell, I once had a foolish opponent position several units close together and managed to land casualties on each of them, but anyway. Templates where also faster as it was simply a case of placing the template, rolling the relevant scatter and counting the number of hits and rolling to wound.

These days I have to roll a D6 to find how many shots I get, then I have to roll y shots worth of D6 to see how many times I hit, then I have to roll to wound. It not only takes longer (and is utterly daft) but I now average about 1 dead model per shot. wow, a whole casualty! Its not like the Battle Cannon used to be able to really hurt bunched units. And where do those missed shots go? To the unit stood right next to the target? Nope, they just vanish unto the abyss. My LRBT used to make MEQ's cry and wet themselves in fear. Now they throw snowballs.

8th only makes it longer by 1 set of roll and only if you play against people that dont try and argue about the scatter or number of models under a shaky template. additionaly any additional units hit required their own set of rolls making it longer too.

it happens and it takes a gak ton of time on tables when other people want to play.

and it does and did happen.

but now we no longer have to roll dice near models, its simple and it works. it could be better functionally.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 amanita wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 godardc wrote:
...They were efficient and fun, and 40 is a game, game are supposed to be fun.

No. Games are what ever you want out of them. They aren't exclusively for fun. There is a reason some people actually choose to play games competitvely

I
Why do people believe that 'fun' and 'competitive' are mutually exclusive?

Yeah man, you tell him

Um, he's replying to you. Forget to log out of the old alt account or something there?

Why would he be replying to me we're both saying the same thing

*meanwhile us 30k players are fielding 3k armies with templates and finishing in 2-2.5 hours*

Seriously, I don't know if it's a player mindset thing or just the generally similarly stats but in 30k I've never had a game that went over the time limit, especially in a tournament. And that's with dumb quad mortar templates.

All templates did was make the game last 4 times as long due to having to painstakingly spread out your dudes, and allowing Ork Burnaz to get 75 autohits out of a battlewaggon.

Good times. Good times.