Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Korthu wrote:
Where are the MS unit stats?

That's what I found:

http://mobilesuitskirmish.proboards.com/thread/229/zeon-forces-stat-sheets

http://mobilesuitskirmish.proboards.com/thread/227/earth-federation-forces-stat-sheets

Yeah, there's no much yet, but the upcoming (soon, I hope! ) faction books will solve that.

Of course, it helps to remember that this rather awesome product is, as far as I know, 100% fan produced!

 Alpharius wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:
Thanks for the info, NH Gunsmith, macrossmartin! Much appreciated

In my experience with other mecha games (mainly Heavy Gear/Battletech), unless you actually field the "small" units the impact of the big robots is highly diminished, even when using appropiate scenery. It's just not the same unless you can actually see just how big they are

Exactly!

Part of the appeal *IS* the sense of scale - especially when using the 1/144 versions.

Otherwise, it might as well just be a much of "28mm" marines shooting at each other...

Well, one thing that bugs me in 28mm games, is a max range of 24 inches for small arms. Now you are playing with 6 inch figures and are limiting some of their weapon ranges to 36 inches? That means they can only shoot as far as 6 times their height. What are they shooting? Ping Pong balls? It would be one thing limiting 1/400 scale figures to 36 inches, but 1/144?!? Makes no sense to me.

Not saying 1/144 can't be done, but if you are going to be using that scale, don't pretend you are not. One a 6x4 table, a 1/144 scale mobile suit is going to be in range of anything on the board. You might be better off penalizing accuracy at greater ranges.

When playing in 1/144 scale, I'll definitely realize I'm playing in 1/144 scale and not pretend otherwise!

Epic 'suffered' from the same...'problem'.

But given that in this type of warfare, barring LOS blocking terrain, everything is pretty much in range of pretty much everything.

Plus, 'sacrificing' some 'realism' for the sake of fun is OK for me - and I'm guessing for others?

The good news here is that both scales are possible, so it looks as if more people here have the potential to find a game they like and enjoy - well done there!

 Albertorius wrote:

Korthu wrote:
Where are the MS unit stats?

That's what I found:

http://mobilesuitskirmish.proboards.com/thread/229/zeon-forces-stat-sheets

http://mobilesuitskirmish.proboards.com/thread/227/earth-federation-forces-stat-sheets

Thanks!!

-K

KTG17 wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:
Thanks for the info, NH Gunsmith, macrossmartin! Much appreciated

In my experience with other mecha games (mainly Heavy Gear/Battletech), unless you actually field the "small" units the impact of the big robots is highly diminished, even when using appropiate scenery. It's just not the same unless you can actually see just how big they are

Exactly!

Part of the appeal *IS* the sense of scale - especially when using the 1/144 versions.

Otherwise, it might as well just be a much of "28mm" marines shooting at each other...

Well, one thing that bugs me in 28mm games, is a max range of 24 inches for small arms. Now you are playing with 6 inch figures and are limiting some of their weapon ranges to 36 inches? That means they can only shoot as far as 6 times their height. What are they shooting? Ping Pong balls? It would be one thing limiting 1/400 scale figures to 36 inches, but 1/144?!? Makes no sense to me.

Not saying 1/144 can't be done, but if you are going to be using that scale, don't pretend you are not. One a 6x4 table, a 1/144 scale mobile suit is going to be in range of anything on the board. You might be better off penalizing accuracy at greater ranges.

The problem with realistic ranges in MSSk is that everything would have range to not only the next game table over, but far past that as well. A little bit of sacrifice for the sake of fun I feel is acceptable.

Also, some of that has to do with the Minovsky Particles that the suits put out, making most tracking equipment useless. Almost all combat in the Universal Century is done face to face because of that. Which is why you end up with short ranged weapons like the Vulcan Guns. They are a point blank defensive/last ditch weapon like a snub nosed revolver or derringer. They are effective against normal vehicles and infantry, but lack the punch to reliably damage mobile suits. Why do you need to develop insanely long ranged weapons if you won't ever be able to hit anything?

One thing that a lot of 40k vehicles have is guidance and tracking systems... Now take ALL of those away and try shooting at something. The effective ranges are going to decrease because it will be far harder to actually hit anything using "Kentucky Windage". Hitting a moving target with a rifle using iron sights is actually harder than one would think, even for a trained soldier.

And one thing to note... You CAN fire at a target outside double the max range of a weapon, there is just a penalty to it. So that 24" range gun can in fact hit stuff out to 48", it just becomes harder. See page 17 of the rulebook.

Alpharius wrote:When playing in 1/144 scale, I'll definitely realize I'm playing in 1/144 scale and not pretend otherwise!

Epic 'suffered' from the same...'problem'.

But given that in this type of warfare, barring LOS blocking terrain, everything is pretty much in range of pretty much everything.

Plus, 'sacrificing' some 'realism' for the sake of fun is OK for me - and I'm guessing for others?

The good news here is that both scales are possible, so it looks as if more people here have the potential to find a game they like and enjoy - well done there!

NH Gunsmith wrote:

The problem with realistic ranges in MSSk is that everything would have range to not only the next game table over, but far past that as well. A little bit of sacrifice for the sake of fun I feel is acceptable.

Exactly!

NH Gunsmith wrote:
Also, some of that has to do with the Minovsky Particles that the suits put out, making most tracking equipment useless. Almost all combat in the Universal Century is done face to face because of that. Which is why you end up with short ranged weapons like the Vulcan Guns. They are a point blank defensive/last ditch weapon like a snub nosed revolver or derringer. They are effective against normal vehicles and infantry, but lack the punch to reliably damage mobile suits. Why do you need to develop insanely long ranged weapons if you won't ever be able to hit anything?

One thing that a lot of 40k vehicles have is guidance and tracking systems... Now take ALL of those away and try shooting at something. The effective ranges are going to decrease because it will be far harder to actually hit anything using "Kentucky Windage". Hitting a moving target with a rifle using iron sights is actually harder than one would think, even for a trained soldier.

I didn't know this detail - so thank you for sharing.

I really do need to watch a bunch of Gundam...

NH Gunsmith wrote:
And one thing to note... You CAN fire at a target outside double the max range of a weapon, there is just a penalty to it. So that 24" range gun can in fact hit stuff out to 48", it just becomes harder. See page 17 of the rulebook.

Even better!

Alpharius,

A good place to start is the original Mobile Suit Gundam, although it can be rough to watch since it is so old (1979), it is still excellent and covers most of that.

08th MS Team is also excellent, and I believe you can find it on YouTube. It shows a lot more of the One Year War through the eyes of the standard soldier.

That was my plan - to start with the Original.

I'm OK with the late 70's nature of it all, as some of my favorite anime series of all time are from around then too.

From there, should I go directly to 08th MS Team?

There are a lot of Gundam series out there, and I've heard that quite a few are quite skippable - and in fact, should definitely be skipped!

 Alpharius wrote:
That was my plan - to start with the Original.

I'm OK with the late 70's nature of it all, as some of my favorite anime series of all time are from around then too.

From there, should I go directly to 08th MS Team?

There are a lot of Gundam series out there, and I've heard that quite a few are quite skippable - and in fact, should definitely be skipped!

Gundam is a massive franchise that covers Universal Century timeline (original Gundam, several other series, a movie, a bunch of OAVs) and a bunch of unrelated, alternate universe series (G-Gundam, SEED, Gundam Wing, etc). It looks like the rule set that is being used here defaults to Federation and Zeon suits, which puts the game in the Universal Century timeline. With that in mind, starting with original Mobile Suit Gundam is a fine idea. I personally started with 8th MS Team, but it left me with a lot of universe-building questions that I didn't get cleared up till I watched Gundam. 8th MS is well-written with interesting mech designs and is well worth a view. Gundam 0080: War in the Pocket is a 6 episode OAV that I think is probably the best Gundam OAV ever made. Gundam's mission statement is: war sucks and giant robots are cool, and 0080 gets that message across better than anything else I've seen. Plus, it is only 3 hours of your time to watch the whole thing. There is another OAV that recently came out that deals with the One Year War (the main conflict that all other conflicts in the show grow out of) and that is Gundam Thunderbolt. It's very pretty and uses a lot of jazz music as a foundational part of the action, but it is super-duper depressing, and not in a fun way.

Anything you would need to know to play this game would probably be contained in those shows. However, if you want to keep going down the rabbit hole, it's a long way to the bottom...

The remaining UC Gundam anime offerings deal with conflicts after the OYW. Stardust Memory (Gundam 0083) is an OAV that takes place between original Gundam and the first sequel series, Z Gundam (or "Zeta" if you prefer). I personally consider 0083 to not be all that great. The animation quality is astounding for the era it came from, and the mech designs are all top-notch, but the characters are mostly terrible (except for one of the villains) and the love triangle gave me cancer. Watch it like an adult movie: savor the action, but fast forward whenever someone starts talking. Then there is Z Gundam itself, which is the reason the guy who created the show is called "Kill 'em all" Tomino. It is generally regarded as the best of the 3 Gundam TV series, and it came from the mid 80s, so the animation quality isn't that bad.

Then there is the more... controversial... Gundam ZZ (or "Double-Zeta"). The first half of the show is a slapstick comedy that undermines the villains and the heroes alike. Then the second half of the series kicks in, and the director remembers his name is "Kill 'em all" Tomino and we get a show that is actually pretty good. ZZ hasn't gotten an English localization yet (one was in the works but the US company behind it went under) but fan subs are available on bootleg DVDs.

Then there is the movie Char's Counterattack, which you should only watch if you are deeply invested in the conflict between the main two characters from original MS Gundam, because this movie is Gundam's Return of the Jedi (ie; it finishes the story of the two leads and puts the central Federation/Zeon conflict of the UC timeline to bed). There aren't any Ewoks in CCA, but there is Quess Paraya, and she's objectively worse than any amount of Ewoks.

Then they made Gundam Unicorn, which was another continuation of the Federation/Zeon fight that we all that CCA was supposed to end. But, it is absolutely gorgeous, the mech designs are red-hot, the fights are epic, and the characters are actually enjoyable to watch. And this time it really really ends the Federation/Zeon wars, for real, until the next OAV that Bandai decides to make.

After this come the Gundam F91 "movie" (really footage leftover from an aborted attempt at a TV series) and the Victory Gundam series, but those deal with events thirty or more years after Unicorn (itself set 16 years after original Gundam) so by the time you get around to watching those, you would have long ago decided if you like this Gundam stuff or not.


Ummm.... sorry for the info dump, there.

 Alpharius wrote:
OK, I'm VERY excited about this one - so much so that I decided this game needs its own thread!

1/144 scale models will work with 10mm terrain, right?

Best places for 1/144 Gundam stuff?

And, what anime series should a relative Gundam rookie watch, and in what order, to get into the proper spirit of things here?

Gah! I totally missed this until now.

Terrain-wise, I might suggest:
* Actual 1/144 terrain: http://pegasushobbies.net/catalog/Models-Peg.-Figure-Sets-1/144-Scale-Figures/c107_1_10/index.html?CDpath=3
* KOG light terrain: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/668519.page#8936019
* Railroad terrain: http://woodlandscenics.woodlandscenics.com/show/Item/S1485/page/1

I used to buy from Hobbylink Japan (HLJ), but I haven't bought from them in ages. Lots of stuff is potentally at your local hobby shop.

I like 08 MS Team and 0080 War in the Pocket.

squidhills wrote:

Gundam 0080: War in the Pocket is a 6 episode OAV that I think is probably the best Gundam OAV ever made. Gundam's mission statement is: war sucks and giant robots are cool, and 0080 gets that message across better than anything else I've seen. Plus, it is only 3 hours of your time to watch the whole thing.

I personally consider 0083 to not be all that great. The animation quality is astounding for the era it came from, and the mech designs are all top-notch, but the characters are mostly terrible (except for one of the villains) and the love triangle gave me cancer. Watch it like an adult movie: savor the action, but fast forward whenever someone starts talking.

Then there is Z Gundam itself, which is the reason the guy who created the show is called "Kill 'em all" Tomino. It is generally regarded as the best of the 3 Gundam TV series, and it came from the mid 80s, so the animation quality isn't that bad.

I split up and cut out some of your post to make it easier to discuss parts of it, sorry!

War In the Pocket is amazing... and heart wrenching, the first time I saw the ending my heart absolutely broke.

I agree on 0083, I found it entertaining but ohh boy is the main character an idiot, and Nina/Gato was just trash writing. They have great looking suits so I generally just use the series as background noise when I watch it now.

I tried watching Zeta... But I hated it. When the reason that the main character (Camille) end up in a Gundam and starts the series is... "My name is a boy's name too!" *queue tempter tantrum*... I lost all expectations of it being a good story. I got halfway through before just giving up.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
The problem with realistic ranges in MSSk is that everything would have range to not only the next game table over, but far past that as well.

Also, some of that has to do with the Minovsky Particles that the suits put out, making most tracking equipment useless.

One thing that a lot of 40k vehicles have is guidance and tracking systems... Now take ALL of those away and try shooting at something. The effective ranges are going to decrease

And one thing to note... You CAN fire at a target outside double the max range of a weapon, there is just a penalty to it. So that 24" range gun can in fact hit stuff out to 48", it just becomes harder. See page 17 of the rulebook.

There isn't actually a "problem" with realistic (i.e. effectively unlimited") range on the tabletop. The notion of a range limit is a rather noxious 40k-ism that should be done away with. A couple years ago, I went over range for 1/144 gaming in some detail: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/2040/570123.page#8378954 - this ultimately fed KOG light. Note that WW2 iron sights on a 75+mm tank were accurate to roughly 2 km.

Minkovsky Particles are OK as an in-universe hand-wave, forcing people to use basic optics. But then that's because Gundam does space battles across VAST distances. On the ground, there should be no limit.

40k does NOT use fire control, as evidenced by how they shoot. They don't even use iron sights. They aim by gut feel. This is why they miss more than 30% of the time, where a modern MBT would hit basically 100% of the time at 40k point-blank ranges.

I recommend to keep the recommended range, and then unlimited with penalty beyond that. So standard shooting to 24" and penalty over 24". Simple and sensible!

 Alpharius wrote:
I didn't know this detail - so thank you for sharing.

I really do need to watch a bunch of Gundam...

Yeah, Minovsky particles are the main conceit by which MSs are a thing in UC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alpharius wrote:
That was my plan - to start with the Original.

I'm OK with the late 70's nature of it all, as some of my favorite anime series of all time are from around then too.

From there, should I go directly to 08th MS Team?

There are a lot of Gundam series out there, and I've heard that quite a few are quite skippable - and in fact, should definitely be skipped!

Watch the 0079 movies instead of the series, it cuts a lot of stupid "monster of the week" battles with increasingly stupider prototypes.

Or you could watch the newer Gundam: The Origin OVAs, based on a current manga series that retells the events of the original series, but also fills a lot of gaps. There are currently five OVAs, and timeline-wise they have just enacted Operation British.

08Th MS Team happens at the same time as the original series, as do War in the Pocket, Thunderbolt, and some others (particularly all the pure CGI ones). After that you have Stardust Memories, Z, ZZ and Char's Counterattack.

As has already been said, Gundam is HUGE, full of great and stupid, sometimes even at the same time. Of the latest stuff Iron Blooded Orphans is quite good and you can watch it without any further Gundam knowledge (you can do the same with a lot of Gundam series, because most of it is not UC and happen in their own separate worlds).

Much appreciated to all for the anime recommendations - I certainly have a lot to watch!

Are there rules for space combat? I've tons of the 1/400 scale Gundam figures and the two 1/400 spacecraft and itching to play space combat with them.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
The problem with realistic ranges in MSSk is that everything would have range to not only the next game table over, but far past that as well. A little bit of sacrifice for the sake of fun I feel is acceptable.

Also, some of that has to do with the Minovsky Particles that the suits put out, making most tracking equipment useless. Almost all combat in the Universal Century is done face to face because of that. Which is why you end up with short ranged weapons like the Vulcan Guns. They are a point blank defensive/last ditch weapon like a snub nosed revolver or derringer. They are effective against normal vehicles and infantry, but lack the punch to reliably damage mobile suits. Why do you need to develop insanely long ranged weapons if you won't ever be able to hit anything?

One thing that a lot of 40k vehicles have is guidance and tracking systems... Now take ALL of those away and try shooting at something. The effective ranges are going to decrease because it will be far harder to actually hit anything using "Kentucky Windage". Hitting a moving target with a rifle using iron sights is actually harder than one would think, even for a trained soldier.

And one thing to note... You CAN fire at a target outside double the max range of a weapon, there is just a penalty to it. So that 24" range gun can in fact hit stuff out to 48", it just becomes harder. See page 17 of the rulebook.

I see some of your arguments, and I know you want limited distances in order to allow for maneuvering, otherwise everyone would just hide behind cover, but given the actual size of a model, lets say 6 feet in my case, saying that I can only shoot a modern weapon 36 feet would be ridiculous. But I understand game development. Its just that if we were playing with epic sized minis, that is easier to justify. Minovsky particles don't obscure sight, so saying I couldn't shoot something such a short distance away just bugs me. And we do see a lot of instances where a crack pilot fires off a couple of shots with his rifle, then throws it aside and whips out his beam saber and charges in, which is ridiculous too. But I know this is robot fantasy here.

I haven't been able to download the rulebook at work so I didn't see the fact that the ranges can be doubled. So that is cool.

As far as recommending Gundam anime to watch, while I think the original series is fun, the 0079 films are probably better for the first time viewer. You can always go back to the original series to catch up. I say this, because I think the faster you get to Z Gundam (the series, not the movies), the better it gets. Z Gundam is hands down one of the best sequels across any format I have ever seen. I remember seeing the mobile suit designs as they were coming out at the time (I wouldnt get to see the series itself for years), and was blown away. Keep in mind we were all in Macross, Dougram, Votoms, and so on just before Z Gundam came out. Those MS designs just blew out minds. The Gundam Mk II is still one of my favorite gundams after all these years. Its the perfect mix of awesome and not over the top bad-ass. I prefer the more realistic-ish suits, so I love the Gundam NT-1 and S Gundam before most others.

The hard things to explain with Gundam are all the series that take place out of the UC timeline, and have nothing to do with it, or each other, and really arent worth the time. Like Gundam X, SEED, AGE, and so on. Gundam Wing was really popular here, and while I have an appreciation of the OZ suits and the EW versions of the Gundam, I hate everything else about that series.

UC is where its at. Its why the other reboots keep failing. I hope origin becomes fully animated, along with Z Gundam Define. Reboots can be hard to do, but if they can pull off half of what Yamato has done with Yamato 2199.... its going to be awesome. If you havent watch Yamato 2199... it will prob blow your mind. So amazingly well done.

<skipping the range discussion as it feels a little bit dead-horsey at this point>

Yamato was a favorite of mine growing up, though I only saw the first two series, and never got a chance to watch the third.

If you're telling me the reboot is that good, I'll definitely seek it out!

The reboot is superior to the original. And they are doing the reboot of the Comet Empire as we type this.

Bolar War planned as well?

And what's the latest on this Gundam reboot?

Is it all the Origin stuff?

Yes, but I am not sure Bandai has committed to a complete Gundam Origins series.

No idea on the Bolar.

You should check here for Yamato updates:

http://www.ourstarblazers.com/

Best site on Yamato on the net. Just check this lovely stuff out:

http://ourstarblazers.com/vault/163a/

And that's for the Comet Empire. I was blown away with that they did with the Gamilas for 2199.

http://ourstarblazers.com/vault/736/
http://ourstarblazers.com/vault/760/
http://ourstarblazers.com/vault/745/

Damn it, I was just thinking about this sort of thing when planning out my 2018 purchases, so coming across this thread is NOT a fortuitous turn of events.

I read the 12th volume of MSG: The Origin in August, and was totally blown away by the art and the designs (the new bits of story added in the Origin are amazing, the older bits less so) . Reading them in aizôban format helped give a good impression too. Giant robots battling over fleeing citizens who get cruelly crushed when the ramshackle building they fled to gets pulverized by a falling mech arm? Yes please.

Glancing at my planning spreadsheet, there are a lot of great kits out there for terrain and contemporary or near future military kit, which is great when they get blown away in a hit or two by that ace pilot in the experimental Gundam. Happily 1:44 is very close to N scale (as others have mentioned) so you can get trees and factories and the like fairly easily

 Alpharius wrote:
<skipping the range discussion as it feels a little bit dead-horsey at this point>

Yamato was a favorite of mine growing up, though I only saw the first two series, and never got a chance to watch the third.

If you're telling me the reboot is that good, I'll definitely seek it out!

The reboot is, basically, perfect.

CommodorePerry3 wrote:
Are there rules for space combat? I've tons of the 1/400 scale Gundam figures and the two 1/400 spacecraft and itching to play space combat with them.

Yep, there are rules for space actions in the V2.0 rulebook. They are a bit basic, and we need to stat up a lot more space-specific units (shuttles, missile carriers, fighters, etc.) but they work nicely at fudging the 'cinematic physics' model of near-orbit movement seen in Gundam and other anime.

Later this year, the Thunderbolt Sector sourcebook will add more detail and options to space actions, including spacecraft and colonies, low-G environments, and the Mobile Suits seen in Gundam Thunderbolt's first season.

Infantry Stat Sheets are up (at last...) in the Fed and Zeon Stat Sheet threads on the MSSk forum.

Each has three different platoon types - Rifle, Heavy Weapons, and Commandos - costed, ready to play. The Fed platoons have a greater proportion of anti-MS missiles than the Zeon equivalents, due to their issues with being squished by Zakus for much of the war.



http://mobilesuitskirmish.proboards.com/board/19/unit-database

WOO HOO!!!

Awesome - and thanks!

(Now to purchase some suitable infantry for both sides!)

What size bases do we put infantry on?

Are there plans to stat out MS from later in the UC timeline? I mean, I love the One Year War stuff as much as the next guy, but the GM III is my waifu, and I'd really like to be able to field one in a Neo-Zeon War setting

 Alpharius wrote:
WOO HOO!!!

What size bases do we put infantry on?

Infantry can be given bases of any dimension up to that used to base Mobile Suits in the same scale. So, if you're building in 1/144th, each Squad can have a base up to 120mm in diameter.

I base all my 1/400 stuff on 40mm bases, although very big things (like Gunperry transports) go on 60mm ones, for stability.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

squidhills wrote:
Are there plans to stat out MS from later in the UC timeline? I mean, I love the One Year War stuff as much as the next guy, but the GM III is my waifu, and I'd really like to be able to field one in a Neo-Zeon War setting

The short answer is - Yes! In fact, the GM III already has its stats. They have not been updated to V2.0 yet, but should be re-released later this year.

Meantime, here's a link to author Liam Thomas's original blog. Scroll down to the entry labelled 'Sept 28' and you'll find PDFs for Unit Statistic booklets. The Earth Federation one has the GM III within.

https://donkusgaming.wordpress.com/category/mobile-suit-gundam-skirmish-2/

Be forewarned, however: These stats were written before the V2.0 changes and points system came about, so you might need to consult the 2.0 Rulebook to calculate the points for the GM III.

Liam's currently working on stats for the Zeta Gundam sourcebook, and there are other eras of Gundam being statted out as I write. The problem is, like any game, not dreaming up attributes for these things, but finding the time to get them on the table for round after round of grinding playtesting! Your patience is appreciated.

About to pick up the following:

2 x Ground War Zaku sets (for those Zaku I's and those sweet, sweet 1/144 tanks!)
1 x Char's Zaku II (Origin version) Love the Origin versions of Zeon stuff!
1 x Zaku II Ortega's Custom (Origin version) - I mean, that Giant Axe - no way am I not getting that!
2 x Zaku II Black Tri-Stars (Origin version) - aka. Ortega Delivery System!

Can't wait to get building!

You might want to track down some of these on eBay. That are out of print but do show up.

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/image/10047723/10/1#
http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/image/10021912/10/1

The Dopp does come with two kits, a 1/100 and a 1/144 version. I just kept the 1/144 and resold the 1/100 on Ebay. I don't mess with 1/100 scale kits but a lot of people do.

Then there is also this:

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/image/10055462/10/1

This is a fav of mine too.

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/image/10029138/20/1

but I like the weird stuff.