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I might run the following 2000 pts army

Super Heavy Detachment

Knight Errant
Thunderstrike Gauntlet

Knight Paladin

Knight Crusader
Thermal Cannon, Avenger Gatling, Ironstorm Missile Pod

Supreme Command Detachement Custodes

3x Shield Captain on Bike

stratigo wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Regarding the bog standard Custodian Guard (I know, I know, not the best unit by a long shot in this book!), what do people think of swords vs spears? Prior it was sword and board all day from my POV, due to a 3++ vs a 5++ with the only benefit of a spear being +1STR.

The difference is closer now at 3++ vs 4++, but is it still worth it grabbing sword and board? It occurs to me that this is still their only non-HQ unit capable of getting 3++ and the statline of the spear is hardly unique (what with bikes having a spear that re-roll wounds, if doesn't benefit from guardian spear stratagem).

It grinds my teeth that the termies don't get a 3++.

It's a bit irritating for sure. Right up there with the standard spear/axe guns not being rapid fire 2, but we gotta deal with what we got.

Maybe there's more synergy with sisters than with guard (who don't need the AM) then. Both want to get near the enemy. Celestine exists.

A problem with IG infantry to screen custodes is that they won't do it for very long. It's almost pointless to fire anti-personnel weapons at Custodes, so they'll all get aimed at the guardsmen. To be honest the sisters squads probably won't last much longer though, so maybe that doesn't matter. 5 sisters only cost a bit more than 10 IG, and are sort of roughly equal in terms of toughness.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Regarding the bog standard Custodian Guard (I know, I know, not the best unit by a long shot in this book!), what do people think of swords vs spears? Prior it was sword and board all day from my POV, due to a 3++ vs a 5++ with the only benefit of a spear being +1STR.

The difference is closer now at 3++ vs 4++, but is it still worth it grabbing sword and board? It occurs to me that this is still their only non-HQ unit capable of getting 3++ and the statline of the spear is hardly unique (what with bikes having a spear that re-roll wounds, if doesn't benefit from guardian spear stratagem).

It grinds my teeth that the termies don't get a 3++.

It's a bit irritating for sure. Right up there with the standard spear/axe guns not being rapid fire 2, but we gotta deal with what we got.

Which is probably not to take terminators >.>

stratigo wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Regarding the bog standard Custodian Guard (I know, I know, not the best unit by a long shot in this book!), what do people think of swords vs spears? Prior it was sword and board all day from my POV, due to a 3++ vs a 5++ with the only benefit of a spear being +1STR.

The difference is closer now at 3++ vs 4++, but is it still worth it grabbing sword and board? It occurs to me that this is still their only non-HQ unit capable of getting 3++ and the statline of the spear is hardly unique (what with bikes having a spear that re-roll wounds, if doesn't benefit from guardian spear stratagem).

It grinds my teeth that the termies don't get a 3++.

It's a bit irritating for sure. Right up there with the standard spear/axe guns not being rapid fire 2, but we gotta deal with what we got.

Which is probably not to take terminators >.>

Eh. I'm still keen on experimenting with a Vexilia Terminator -1 to hit standard coupled with a 5+ man squad of axe terminators and the splitting stratagem. Drop it all on a flank, attempt a T1 charge and split them up next turn regardless if only to cause a headache.

But that aside, I recognize the bikes as the absolute strongpoint. My dilemma, like I said earlier, was with core troops. Sword & Board or Spear?!?!

I'd go with spears, especially if you also use Bikers. Since those are more likely to eat the big guns.
4++ instead of 3++, but double the range, -1AP and 2D, and extra str in melee and the ability to use the knife.

(plus spears look better)

According to a preview I saw the shields are going up to 10ppm. If so, I think it's even more clear that spears are the way to go for a full-custodes army.

There's arguably a case for having one or two guys with shields in each squad, to take lascannon shots. But even then going from 4++ to 3++ only helps if you actually roll a 3 - so it's only affecting one shot in 6. At 7 points more expensive than the spear, and with a loss of firepower and strength, I think it makes shields pretty difficult to argue for.

On the other hand, it's very easy to argue against terminators. 84 ppm is just nuts. A squad of 5 to drop in and hopefully get a difficult 9" charge is crazy when you consider that unit costs 420 points. Most of the time it's going to be charging into some random screening squad of nobodies anyway. You're paying 10x the cost of the IG infantry squad you might well find yourself charging into.

Plus it's not even as if deep strike is anything special. It costs 1CP to give it to any of your other units. I'd much rather save a hundred points and use 5 Wardens.

It might be worth putting shield captains and vexillae in terminator armour, if the cost isn't too crazy. The extra wound and ability to deep strike could be valuable on those guys.

Mandragola wrote:
According to a preview I saw the shields are going up to 10ppm. If so, I think it's even more clear that spears are the way to go for a full-custodes army.

There's arguably a case for having one or two guys with shields in each squad, to take lascannon shots. But even then going from 4++ to 3++ only helps if you actually roll a 3 - so it's only affecting one shot in 6. At 7 points more expensive than the spear, and with a loss of firepower and strength, I think it makes shields pretty difficult to argue for.

On the other hand, it's very easy to argue against terminators. 84 ppm is just nuts. A squad of 5 to drop in and hopefully get a difficult 9" charge is crazy when you consider that unit costs 420 points. Most of the time it's going to be charging into some random screening squad of nobodies anyway. You're paying 10x the cost of the IG infantry squad you might well find yourself charging into.

Plus it's not even as if deep strike is anything special. It costs 1CP to give it to any of your other units. I'd much rather save a hundred points and use 5 Wardens.

It might be worth putting shield captains and vexillae in terminator armour, if the cost isn't too crazy. The extra wound and ability to deep strike could be valuable on those guys.

If shields go up that much then I agree there isn't really even a discussion to be had, spears all the way.

As far as terminators go - I'd worry about the "it's just 1CP" mentality for swapping them out to Wardens. Lose a wound, gain 6+++, lose a CP, gain ~100pts. How many points would it cost you to regain that 1CP? In an army that starves for CPs outside of allies, I may just pay that cost. Then again, I'm speak from a not strictly competitive POV. My FLGS doesn't have 50 man conscript screens or maximized imperial/chaos soup murder trains.

How valuable are Allarus Terminators when you use the deep striking + CP for the character assassination stratagem? A squad of 3 can easily kill a commissar in one turn. Maybe it might be good for this.

 Astmeister wrote:
How valuable are Allarus Terminators when you use the deep striking + CP for the character assassination stratagem? A squad of 3 can easily kill a commissar in one turn. Maybe it might be good for this.

Do Custodes care about the faq'ed Commissar?
Does anyone?

Ordana wrote:

 Astmeister wrote:
How valuable are Allarus Terminators when you use the deep striking + CP for the character assassination stratagem? A squad of 3 can easily kill a commissar in one turn. Maybe it might be good for this.

Do Custodes care about the faq'ed Commissar?
Does anyone?

Considering they can now be immune to moral tests again with custodies banner yes. Its a little bit of points but many lists will use it now.

Good to see spears are the way to go. I have 10 unbuilt and 5 spear 5 sword built. Swords I guess may be the buy to stick in to take the las cannon shot that was mentioned if I have left over points.

str00dles1 wrote:

Ordana wrote:

 Astmeister wrote:
How valuable are Allarus Terminators when you use the deep striking + CP for the character assassination stratagem? A squad of 3 can easily kill a commissar in one turn. Maybe it might be good for this.

Do Custodes care about the faq'ed Commissar?
Does anyone?

Considering they can now be immune to moral tests again with custodies banner yes. Its a little bit of points but many lists will use it now.

Good to see spears are the way to go. I have 10 unbuilt and 5 spear 5 sword built. Swords I guess may be the buy to stick in to take the las cannon shot that was mentioned if I have left over points.

But then we care about killing a Vexilla, not a Commissar. And no, there is no way your terminator shooting (which is just the axe cause the grenade launcher is out of range with only 12") is even going to dent him.

So thinking an allied Outrider with 1 shied cap and 3x3 bolter bikes would be a solid base to ally in some guard muscle.

970 pts of custode bikes leaves quite a bit for guard stuff

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
So thinking an allied Outrider with 1 shied cap and 3x3 bolter bikes would be a solid base to ally in some guard muscle.

970 pts of custode bikes leaves quite a bit for guard stuff

Im most likely doing this but with 3 bikes with the other option and Sly with 3 Tanks in a Heavy Detachment, the 3 Tanks will be great for me b.c they will work with my SOB.

This way i have SOB, Custodes, IG all able to work together in any combo. I normally only Xenos, but sense i have SOB, and i like these bikes it'll work out great.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
According to a preview I saw the shields are going up to 10ppm. If so, I think it's even more clear that spears are the way to go for a full-custodes army.

There's arguably a case for having one or two guys with shields in each squad, to take lascannon shots. But even then going from 4++ to 3++ only helps if you actually roll a 3 - so it's only affecting one shot in 6. At 7 points more expensive than the spear, and with a loss of firepower and strength, I think it makes shields pretty difficult to argue for.

On the other hand, it's very easy to argue against terminators. 84 ppm is just nuts. A squad of 5 to drop in and hopefully get a difficult 9" charge is crazy when you consider that unit costs 420 points. Most of the time it's going to be charging into some random screening squad of nobodies anyway. You're paying 10x the cost of the IG infantry squad you might well find yourself charging into.

Plus it's not even as if deep strike is anything special. It costs 1CP to give it to any of your other units. I'd much rather save a hundred points and use 5 Wardens.

It might be worth putting shield captains and vexillae in terminator armour, if the cost isn't too crazy. The extra wound and ability to deep strike could be valuable on those guys.

If shields go up that much then I agree there isn't really even a discussion to be had, spears all the way.

As far as terminators go - I'd worry about the "it's just 1CP" mentality for swapping them out to Wardens. Lose a wound, gain 6+++, lose a CP, gain ~100pts. How many points would it cost you to regain that 1CP? In an army that starves for CPs outside of allies, I may just pay that cost. Then again, I'm speak from a not strictly competitive POV. My FLGS doesn't have 50 man conscript screens or maximized imperial/chaos soup murder trains.

It's probably 10 for sword AND shield. 10 for shield is likely just for characters otherwise it's a crazy beyond GW's norm.

I'd say in that light you always want swords or axes. Spears are kinda the generalist weapon that is outclassed in survivability by s+s and damage by axe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ordana wrote:
I'd go with spears, especially if you also use Bikers. Since those are more likely to eat the big guns.
4++ instead of 3++, but double the range, -1AP and 2D, and extra str in melee and the ability to use the knife.

(plus spears look better)

Bikes can't use spears, just lances.

Audustum wrote:
It's probably 10 for sword AND shield. 10 for shield is likely just for characters otherwise it's a crazy beyond GW's norm.

I'd say in that light you always want swords or axes. Spears are kinda the generalist weapon that is outclassed in survivability by s+s and damage by axe.

It's currently 14 for Sword&Shield vs 12 for Spear. If it drops to 10vs12, I'm uncertain again. Sword&Shield can't benefit from misericordia attacks (which spears would still need to pay for), spears can. I think that has me leaning toward Sword&Shield, but still shaky.

Audustum wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
According to a preview I saw the shields are going up to 10ppm. If so, I think it's even more clear that spears are the way to go for a full-custodes army.

There's arguably a case for having one or two guys with shields in each squad, to take lascannon shots. But even then going from 4++ to 3++ only helps if you actually roll a 3 - so it's only affecting one shot in 6. At 7 points more expensive than the spear, and with a loss of firepower and strength, I think it makes shields pretty difficult to argue for.

On the other hand, it's very easy to argue against terminators. 84 ppm is just nuts. A squad of 5 to drop in and hopefully get a difficult 9" charge is crazy when you consider that unit costs 420 points. Most of the time it's going to be charging into some random screening squad of nobodies anyway. You're paying 10x the cost of the IG infantry squad you might well find yourself charging into.

Plus it's not even as if deep strike is anything special. It costs 1CP to give it to any of your other units. I'd much rather save a hundred points and use 5 Wardens.

It might be worth putting shield captains and vexillae in terminator armour, if the cost isn't too crazy. The extra wound and ability to deep strike could be valuable on those guys.

If shields go up that much then I agree there isn't really even a discussion to be had, spears all the way.

As far as terminators go - I'd worry about the "it's just 1CP" mentality for swapping them out to Wardens. Lose a wound, gain 6+++, lose a CP, gain ~100pts. How many points would it cost you to regain that 1CP? In an army that starves for CPs outside of allies, I may just pay that cost. Then again, I'm speak from a not strictly competitive POV. My FLGS doesn't have 50 man conscript screens or maximized imperial/chaos soup murder trains.

It's probably 10 for sword AND shield. 10 for shield is likely just for characters otherwise it's a crazy beyond GW's norm.

I'd say in that light you always want swords or axes. Spears are kinda the generalist weapon that is outclassed in survivability by s+s and damage by axe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ordana wrote:
I'd go with spears, especially if you also use Bikers. Since those are more likely to eat the big guns.
4++ instead of 3++, but double the range, -1AP and 2D, and extra str in melee and the ability to use the knife.

(plus spears look better)

Bikes can't use spears, just lances.

I mean the big weapons that you need your invul save for will be shooting at bikes. Making the +1 invul less important for the basic Custodes.

So what are people's thoughts on the match up versus various armies?

I know my local meta's going to be... interesting. With at least one force (Tau) that could very well be a Hard Counter due to all the Missile Pods my buddy uses. Hard to avoid Mortal Wounds from a non-Psychic force? Poor Custodes are doomed (And seriously!? Why the heck are Missiles a source of mortal wounds? Why can't an invul stop MISSILES - man I hate the inconsistency of what causes Mortal Wounds)

Dark Eldar also seem an unlikely hard counter with all their Shard Weaponry giving them easy wounds against us, especially combined with some higher str and AP support equipment.

Death Guard and Craftworld Eldar both have lots of Mortal Wound output from non-Psychic Sources (Plus Psychic sources to boot). Plus other strengths that give them an edge too.

Guard are extremely more shooting efficient, and have a whole lot of blockers to throw up between a tank and a biker and there is no cost effective way to kill a Leman Russ

Chaos can drop in obliterators which I suspect will be pretty darn mean counter. I am going to say that custodes are going to be a fairly non competetive mono army, and will work better in a combination with other imperial forces

 Dulahan wrote:
So what are people's thoughts on the match up versus various armies?

I know my local meta's going to be... interesting. With at least one force (Tau) that could very well be a Hard Counter due to all the Missile Pods my buddy uses. Hard to avoid Mortal Wounds from a non-Psychic force? Poor Custodes are doomed (And seriously!? Why the heck are Missiles a source of mortal wounds? Why can't an invul stop MISSILES - man I hate the inconsistency of what causes Mortal Wounds)

Dark Eldar also seem an unlikely hard counter with all their Shard Weaponry giving them easy wounds against us, especially combined with some higher str and AP support equipment.

Death Guard and Craftworld Eldar both have lots of Mortal Wound output from non-Psychic Sources (Plus Psychic sources to boot). Plus other strengths that give them an edge too.

Dark Eldar and Harlequins are both Elite army hunters in 8th ed, they will be hard, I think a good Harlequin player will do enough damage in a single turn to weaken Custodes enough to not recover (30 Melta pistols with 80 -2/3 ap attacks with the ability to charge how and when they want) With there -1/4++ vehicles to keep them safe and DSing 12 man shock unit. But i also think a MW heavy Nid army would be hard too, lots of trash in the way to kill the units doing the wounds combine with loads of low ap shots. Then there is CSM.

I would be more worried about armies with MW's combined with 2D+ damage weapons, Mass fire S3/S4 with 0ap isnt going to hurt them that bad. So CSM, DE, Quins, Nids are what i think would hurt the most.

Note: 3-4 wounds on a guy wont kill them, this is something players wont think is important until they shoot 3 different units and see they didnt kill anything even tho they did 12 wounds. Its going to be a different mind set.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

Audustum wrote:
It's probably 10 for sword AND shield. 10 for shield is likely just for characters otherwise it's a crazy beyond GW's norm.

I'd say in that light you always want swords or axes. Spears are kinda the generalist weapon that is outclassed in survivability by s+s and damage by axe.

It's currently 14 for Sword&Shield vs 12 for Spear. If it drops to 10vs12, I'm uncertain again. Sword&Shield can't benefit from misericordia attacks (which spears would still need to pay for), spears can. I think that has me leaning toward Sword&Shield, but still shaky.

We know GW is on a standardized prices kick (which is how we guess Hurricane Bolters on Bikes are 10. Space Marine shields are still 5 for regular infantry so I have a hard time believing that changed. Space Marines charge 15 for characters though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ordana wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
According to a preview I saw the shields are going up to 10ppm. If so, I think it's even more clear that spears are the way to go for a full-custodes army.

There's arguably a case for having one or two guys with shields in each squad, to take lascannon shots. But even then going from 4++ to 3++ only helps if you actually roll a 3 - so it's only affecting one shot in 6. At 7 points more expensive than the spear, and with a loss of firepower and strength, I think it makes shields pretty difficult to argue for.

On the other hand, it's very easy to argue against terminators. 84 ppm is just nuts. A squad of 5 to drop in and hopefully get a difficult 9" charge is crazy when you consider that unit costs 420 points. Most of the time it's going to be charging into some random screening squad of nobodies anyway. You're paying 10x the cost of the IG infantry squad you might well find yourself charging into.

Plus it's not even as if deep strike is anything special. It costs 1CP to give it to any of your other units. I'd much rather save a hundred points and use 5 Wardens.

It might be worth putting shield captains and vexillae in terminator armour, if the cost isn't too crazy. The extra wound and ability to deep strike could be valuable on those guys.

If shields go up that much then I agree there isn't really even a discussion to be had, spears all the way.

As far as terminators go - I'd worry about the "it's just 1CP" mentality for swapping them out to Wardens. Lose a wound, gain 6+++, lose a CP, gain ~100pts. How many points would it cost you to regain that 1CP? In an army that starves for CPs outside of allies, I may just pay that cost. Then again, I'm speak from a not strictly competitive POV. My FLGS doesn't have 50 man conscript screens or maximized imperial/chaos soup murder trains.

It's probably 10 for sword AND shield. 10 for shield is likely just for characters otherwise it's a crazy beyond GW's norm.

I'd say in that light you always want swords or axes. Spears are kinda the generalist weapon that is outclassed in survivability by s+s and damage by axe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ordana wrote:
I'd go with spears, especially if you also use Bikers. Since those are more likely to eat the big guns.
4++ instead of 3++, but double the range, -1AP and 2D, and extra str in melee and the ability to use the knife.

(plus spears look better)

Bikes can't use spears, just lances.

I mean the big weapons that you need your invul save for will be shooting at bikes. Making the +1 invul less important for the basic Custodes.

Ah, much more fair point. If the regulars are on an objective though I imagine they'll still want that protection.

(Plus swords look cooler)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

stratigo wrote:
Guard are extremely more shooting efficient, and have a whole lot of blockers to throw up between a tank and a biker and there is no cost effective way to kill a Leman Russ

Chaos can drop in obliterators which I suspect will be pretty darn mean counter. I am going to say that custodes are going to be a fairly non competetive mono army, and will work better in a combination with other imperial forces

Since these are Jet Bikes maybe they'll have Fly? Do Eldar Jet Bikes have Fly? Then you could charge over chaff.

Audustum wrote:
(Plus swords look cooler)

Ordana wrote:
(plus spears look better)

 obsidiankatana wrote:

Audustum wrote:
(Plus swords look cooler)

Ordana wrote:
(plus spears look better)

I did not glue shields on, I did not glue shields on, I did noooot.

Oh Hi Emperor

In terms of the spears vs sword + shield debate I'd say it depends on what you want to use your Custodian Guard for. Personally I'd be using mine up camp on backfield objectives so for a balance of point efficiency and durability I'd go with 1 shield and 2 spears in a 3 man squad to make them harder to remove, especially in cover. The spears can tank low AP shooting and the shield can take AP -2 and better shooting.

Talking about Allarus Terminators I think they have a place in an army given deep striking and strategems associated with them. I can easily see myself using the shoot characters strategem to take out characters (that 2 damage on their guns are huge) and using concussion Grenades to support jetbikes and give the opponent another immediate threat to shoot at besides the bikes.

The Sword & Board very much seem to be "Take and Hold" mid table objective sort of units. High durability with that invul. The Pistol 2 stat on their swords helps against hordes by functionally adding more potential attacks and kills compared to the spears. (Hey, 2 extra rolls per model is 2 extra rolls per model! And even 'just' Str 4 can still hurt bigger stuff with luck)

Not ideal, sadly. For all they were in the old lists. But still good as long as it's not a hyper comp scene.

I think the power ranking of weapons is:
Axes>Spears>Sword+Shield.

The S8 of the axes is such a big deal. It helps you agaisn't T4, T6, T7 and T8. In the other hand the 1 AP that you loss isn't that big of a deal, specially with the stratagem that gives you -1AP for Axes for 1CP if you REALLY need that -1AP for something.

It will come all down to point costs of course. Sword and Shield for me, at least now, has become a mid-field objetive graver equipement, but is much more usefull agaisn't meele horde armies, because with spears if your custodes aren't in combat at least they can shoot things.

But maybe the best way will be to have mix equipement, with a guy with Shield to tank the first hits agaisn't the unit (Something I will not do because I don't like how they look with mixed weapons)

That's my inclination as well, my Allarus are definitely taking axes so they can hammer on vehicles and be the bane of every character and Primaris/elites.

I can understand not liking mixing weapon options, I don't mind throwing a storm shield guy in my spear guard squad personally, I like the variety especially if it's good tactically. If anything that's why I'd take Allarus Terminators and try to make them work, sure jetbikes are probably better efficiency speaking but having an army of nothing but jetbikes sounds boring to me even though I love the units. If I can find a good way to combine the Vexilla Teleport Homer strategem with Allarus that would go a long way in their viability.

From what i've seen from reviews -

Swords are 9 points
Spears are 12 points
Axes are 14 points

Shields on Characters are 15 points
Shields on normal dudes are 10 points


It's hard to tell, but, using this as a base https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMe-kEIBmmQ with a time stamp of around 1:28:40 you can see the other wargear points.

It does also make it seem like the Vexillas cost points as well in addition to the dude carrying it???

Kdash wrote:
From what i've seen from reviews -

Swords are 9 points
Spears are 12 points
Axes are 14 points

Shields on Characters are 15 points
Shields on normal dudes are 10 points


It's hard to tell, but, using this as a base https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMe-kEIBmmQ with a time stamp of around 1:28:40 you can see the other wargear points.

It does also make it seem like the Vexillas cost points as well in addition to the dude carrying it???

Looked that over, it seems Sword&Board does in fact now run base cost +19 vs the Guardian spear at base cost +12. That cinches it for me in favor of spears. +7ppm for +1 invul -1 STR doesn't cut it in my book.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

Kdash wrote:
From what i've seen from reviews -

Swords are 9 points
Spears are 12 points
Axes are 14 points

Shields on Characters are 15 points
Shields on normal dudes are 10 points


It's hard to tell, but, using this as a base https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMe-kEIBmmQ with a time stamp of around 1:28:40 you can see the other wargear points.

It does also make it seem like the Vexillas cost points as well in addition to the dude carrying it???

Looked that over, it seems Sword&Board does in fact now run base cost +19 vs the Guardian spear at base cost +12. That cinches it for me in favor of spears. +7ppm for +1 invul -1 STR doesn't cut it in my book.

I agree, however, i think, where possible i'll personally opt for the Axe anyway, as it's only 2 points more than the Spear and str 8 is one of those "important" levels.