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 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Swiftblade wrote:
Yeah maybe it's cause I'm a Tsons fan, but it's just more fuel for the flames for me to not like the Wolves. They make this huge mistake and are duped into directly disobeying orders, and burn a loyal world to the ground and shatter a loyal legion.

Loyal legions weren't 100% possessed by daemons. The Thousand Sons were.

the Tutiloargies where NOT deamonic posession

BrianDavion wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Swiftblade wrote:
Yeah maybe it's cause I'm a Tsons fan, but it's just more fuel for the flames for me to not like the Wolves. They make this huge mistake and are duped into directly disobeying orders, and burn a loyal world to the ground and shatter a loyal legion.

Loyal legions weren't 100% possessed by daemons. The Thousand Sons were.

the Tutiloargies where NOT deamonic posession

They were still using demons, and their Primarch had meddled with Tzeentch to make the Flesh-Change disappear. So they were tainted, though subtly.

BrianDavion wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Swiftblade wrote:
Yeah maybe it's cause I'm a Tsons fan, but it's just more fuel for the flames for me to not like the Wolves. They make this huge mistake and are duped into directly disobeying orders, and burn a loyal world to the ground and shatter a loyal legion.

Loyal legions weren't 100% possessed by daemons. The Thousand Sons were.

the Tutiloargies where NOT deamonic posession

That's objectively false. They are daemons. They inhabited the Thousand Sons.

It probably wasn't considered the best time to be alienating more Space Marine Legions tbf.

The tutelaries had as much to do with daemonic possession as daemons do with the power of Fenris and their erm wolf guides.
Though tutelaries are supposed to be protective daimons. You could also call the primarchs tutelaries made flesh. Which knowing the Emp wouldnt surprise me if he stuffed them in meat bags.

Seeing as theres a tutelary, which is supposedly the best bit of Magnus on Terra. Which Malcador brought brought back from the body of Arvida. That will probably end up being the grand master of the GK. I dont think id call them daemons.

Russ has always been easily lead. To busy saying yes, ill do it, to hide his own legions flaws.

No, because it was doing its duty for the Emperor.
However, being wolfed to maximum by Phil Kelly and later Wrath of Magnus more than make up for Prospero

Wow some bad info going around here.

First off tutelaries are daemons and were BOUND to the thousand sons, they did not possess them in any way. But as daemons it's entirely possible to possess a thousand son.

Second, Magnus's soul on terra isn't a tutulary, it is a literal part of his soul, other parts were bound to people or objects, basically a horcrux.

I always thought tutelaries were viewed half as psychic batteries to draw strength from and half as slaves, not something to give up both ones soul and body to.

 Formosa wrote:
Wow some bad info going around here.

First off tutelaries are daemons and were BOUND to the thousand sons, they did not possess them in any way. But as daemons it's entirely possible to possess a thousand son.

Aren't in new BL books tutelaries were something different than basic daemons? More in lines of bein' warp faximilies of TS marines.

And there was that fluffy idea that NO TS marine on the ground physically survived Prospero but were reforged by Magnus - and thus literally pieces of him if that was not always such way.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Destroying traitors is a good thing, so the Space Wolves would have been commended rather than punished.

Magnus could have avoided all of the misery for Prospero and the Thousand Sons if he had simply informed them of what had happened and told them not to resist. He knew Russ and Valdor were coming to get him. He could have contacted them at any time to surrender and go with them peacefully. He never did and thus brought ruin on his people. Really, Magnus is a huge selfish douchebag, and the poor Thousand Sons and people of Prospero paid the price for his stubborn pride and hubris.

If I recall correctly, in Inferno, Magnus does tell the Tsons to stand down and accept what is about to happen to them. A few of his captains took their companies and mounted a defense anyway, dragging the rest of the legion in as civilian casualties mounted. Magnus was off being emo in a corner somewhere for the majority of the battle.

pm713 wrote:
Not really as far as I know. I don't see why they would though.

Because he is a traitor who pretty much lost Heresy for loyalists?

Had he brought Magnus in chains, Empy would be not only be able to bring all his strength to bear instead of multitasking, also, Horus wouldn't have battalion of Chaos psykers created from captive population of Prospero, who Russ like last idiot handed to the delegate of the Sons of Horus present, who insisted on 'taking care of the prisoners' in return for help...

BrianDavion wrote:
I think a more pertinant question is.... what the feth was Constine Valdor doing? he was there and presumably knew the Emperor's mind on the matter. his not acting seems to be a pretty major feth up

That's the problem, according to FW book on Prospero Valdor was sending complains to Russ every five minutes that this was not what they were sent for, Russ then throwing them into nearest garbage bin before tiring of this and ordering immediate assault on space port to shut Valdor up (and ironically, first destroyed unit was loyalist regiment that was just resupplying there by chance).

Russ is in no way a traitor though. That's a ridiculous argument. The whole heresy would have been avoided if the first Luna Wolves had killed Horus when they met him. I guess they're traitors too.

 Inquisitor Lord Bane wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Destroying traitors is a good thing, so the Space Wolves would have been commended rather than punished.

Magnus could have avoided all of the misery for Prospero and the Thousand Sons if he had simply informed them of what had happened and told them not to resist. He knew Russ and Valdor were coming to get him. He could have contacted them at any time to surrender and go with them peacefully. He never did and thus brought ruin on his people. Really, Magnus is a huge selfish douchebag, and the poor Thousand Sons and people of Prospero paid the price for his stubborn pride and hubris.

If I recall correctly, in Inferno, Magnus does tell the Tsons to stand down and accept what is about to happen to them. A few of his captains took their companies and mounted a defense anyway, dragging the rest of the legion in as civilian casualties mounted. Magnus was off being emo in a corner somewhere for the majority of the battle.

Yeah, this is how it happened. I actually think Ahriman was the most vocal about mounting a defense for Prospero when the Wolves rolled up to Prospero with a large elimination force.

The frustrating thing about it is that the battle of Prospero is a tragedy for both sides, the Thousand Sons are punished by Magnus's misguided attempts to help and the Wolves are duped by the Warmaster into forcing the Sons to embrace chaos. It's a sad story, and it's supposed to be sad for both sides with long reaching consequences for the actions of each side.

Except it takes several millenia for the Wolves to have consequences, cause the Wolves seem to get away with everything in the fluff. Leman Russ gets duped by Horus into fighting the Sons but doesnt even get yelled at by his fellow Primarchs for it? Gets to get away with being non codex compliant? Activley engages the inquisition in a war and doesn't have their home glassed from orbit? Heck they even get to have Wulfen show up and thats kosher. The only time the Wolves face consequences for their actions is in Wrath of Magnus, when the TS finally get their revenge and the Inquisition says "Yeah we have to blow up part of Fenris. Not all of it, but most of it."

The furstrating part, at least for me, about the aftermath of Prospero is how little it affects the wolves. In a setting where consequences tend to be pretty swift, and the HH book series where the primarchs are more than happy to shame each other for their mistakes, the Wolves just get away with it. Theres no story, no tragedy for the wolves at Prospero except to be the bad guys. Except they get to be the bad guys of the story but still get to be the good guys cause hey they are Space Wolves.

I know thats a bit soap box-ish, but I wanted to clear up the air of my frustartions. I know the TS messed up, Magnus's arrogance was his downfall, and he tried to do what was right but didn't listen to advice and suffered for it. Thats a good tragedy. But the Space Wolves get tricked into razing Prospero by manipulative forces and then just keep on truckin'. It's annoying.

How can you be non codex compliant when it wasn't a thing?

The whole Chapter was crippled in Battle of the Fang. Then again in the Fenris junk which is pretty badly written because it started doing dumb crap like Wulfen. GW are not good writers. Or really average writers.

When people bring up the Inquisition thing they always forget that GREY KNIGHTS were planning to start assassinating people.

pm713 wrote:
How can you be non codex compliant when it wasn't a thing?

The whole Chapter was crippled in Battle of the Fang. Then again in the Fenris junk which is pretty badly written because it started doing dumb crap like Wulfen. GW are not good writers. Or really average writers.

When people bring up the Inquisition thing they always forget that GREY KNIGHTS were planning to start assassinating people.

no the codex was a thing, we're talking post Heresy.

the fenris thing yeah we'll see what the space wolf codex says I suppose. regarding the inqusition, no the grey knights where NOT planning to assasinate people. The Inqsution was planning to engage in Genocide to cover up the Grey Knights existance, the existance of deamons AND the existance of a deamon Primarch. As was standard procedure. This was nothing new or exceptional. So yeah doesn't matter who you think si right, this was the Space Wolves fighting with the inqusition over a matter that was pretty normal busniess for the Inq

BrianDavion wrote:
The Inqsution was planning to engage in Genocide to cover up the Grey Knights existance, the existance of deamons AND the existance of a deamon Primarch. As was standard procedure. This was nothing new or exceptional. So yeah doesn't matter who you think si right, this was the Space Wolves fighting with the inqusition over a matter that was pretty normal busniess for the Inq

The real question is, why didn't the Inqusitor Lord just order those transports with Guardsmen on to go to location X and not to tell the Space Wolves where they were going.

Really that book was a flimsy retcon.

pm713 wrote:
Russ is in no way a traitor though. That's a ridiculous argument. The whole heresy would have been avoided if the first Luna Wolves had killed Horus when they met him. I guess they're traitors too.

Russ is not a traitor to the emperor, but his actions betrayed the imperium, and his follow up actions cement that, rather than admitting he made a mistake and trying to salvage as many of the thousand sons as he could, he sent his sons out to finish the job, even before Magnus went traitor.

The Tsons deserved centure, they deserved to be punished, but that should and would have come after the heresy had Russ rectified his mistake after finding out that Horus had tricked him.

 Formosa wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Russ is in no way a traitor though. That's a ridiculous argument. The whole heresy would have been avoided if the first Luna Wolves had killed Horus when they met him. I guess they're traitors too.

Russ is not a traitor to the emperor, but his actions betrayed the imperium, and his follow up actions cement that, rather than admitting he made a mistake and trying to salvage as many of the thousand sons as he could, he sent his sons out to finish the job, even before Magnus went traitor.

The Tsons deserved centure, they deserved to be punished, but that should and would have come after the heresy had Russ rectified his mistake after finding out that Horus had tricked him.

Isstavan V hasn't happened yet when Prosperio burned

BrianDavion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Russ is in no way a traitor though. That's a ridiculous argument. The whole heresy would have been avoided if the first Luna Wolves had killed Horus when they met him. I guess they're traitors too.

Russ is not a traitor to the emperor, but his actions betrayed the imperium, and his follow up actions cement that, rather than admitting he made a mistake and trying to salvage as many of the thousand sons as he could, he sent his sons out to finish the job, even before Magnus went traitor.

The Tsons deserved centure, they deserved to be punished, but that should and would have come after the heresy had Russ rectified his mistake after finding out that Horus had tricked him.

Isstavan V hasn't happened yet when Prosperio burned

Doesnt matter, its one of the inconsistencies of the HH series (even prior to the novels), Horus tricked russ.

 Formosa wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Russ is in no way a traitor though. That's a ridiculous argument. The whole heresy would have been avoided if the first Luna Wolves had killed Horus when they met him. I guess they're traitors too.

Russ is not a traitor to the emperor, but his actions betrayed the imperium, and his follow up actions cement that, rather than admitting he made a mistake and trying to salvage as many of the thousand sons as he could, he sent his sons out to finish the job, even before Magnus went traitor.

The Tsons deserved centure, they deserved to be punished, but that should and would have come after the heresy had Russ rectified his mistake after finding out that Horus had tricked him.

Isstavan V hasn't happened yet when Prosperio burned

Doesnt matter, its one of the inconsistencies of the HH series (even prior to the novels), Horus tricked russ.

That's not an inconsistancy unless you think Horus upon deciding to go traitor IMMEDIATLY went over to the Istavaan system. the material suggests Horus spent a great deal of time manuvering pieces into position etc before he started the heresy

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
How can you be non codex compliant when it wasn't a thing?

The whole Chapter was crippled in Battle of the Fang. Then again in the Fenris junk which is pretty badly written because it started doing dumb crap like Wulfen. GW are not good writers. Or really average writers.

When people bring up the Inquisition thing they always forget that GREY KNIGHTS were planning to start assassinating people.

no the codex was a thing, we're talking post Heresy.

the fenris thing yeah we'll see what the space wolf codex says I suppose. regarding the inqusition, no the grey knights where NOT planning to assasinate people. The Inqsution was planning to engage in Genocide to cover up the Grey Knights existance, the existance of deamons AND the existance of a deamon Primarch. As was standard procedure. This was nothing new or exceptional. So yeah doesn't matter who you think si right, this was the Space Wolves fighting with the inqusition over a matter that was pretty normal busniess for the Inq

Yes they were. The Fenrisian Inqusitor and her GK squad were considering assassinating the leader of the operation. Who was also totally unsuited.

The Inquisition was also told the civilian population knew nothing about it and that standard procedure isn't literal because logic. If you were killed for knowing of Chaos then Cadian guardsmen would be killed after their first day on the job. None of it was "normal business".

When Russ got his orders, Horus was still the Warmaster of the Great Crusade; the favoured son of the Emperor and first among the Primarchs. The Emperor was fighting a warp rift in his basement, created by Magnus. Getting a change of orders from the guy who now runs the Great Crusade isn't a weird thing at all. Unsettling, but the Wolves have killed Legions before. By the time they get back to the Emperor there's another 6 Legions turned traitor, there's still a deamon portal in the basement, and the Imperial forces cannot be trusted. Somewhere in there Mars go pear-shaped as the Mechanicum fight it out.

So, they weren't punished by the Imperium for Prospero because by the time anyone could get to them it was post-Heresy. The Emperor was dead, Malcador was dust, Valdor was present at the burning so he can't really point fingers, and Guilliman has popped up out of his Imperium Secundus to make demands and Dorn is looking at kicking off inter-Legion war 2.0 over it.

Whether they should have or shouldn't have is up to the individual, but no. No they weren't.

It's worth noting that the TS were doing an awful lot more with sorcery etc than anyone expected when Russ was sent by the Emperor to take Magnus.

While the order wasn't to raze the planet at the time, if the Emperor had known the level of sorcery (and while the TS's didn't think so the clear inference was that this was already slow chaotic corruption and the Emperor would have thought so) employed he probably would have ordered everything to be destroyed. Hence the SWs and Custodes would come home, report on this and the Emperor would have condoned their actions regardless. The Emperor was pretty ruthless like that.

Another angle when people mention the Emperor acting foolishly is that the Emperor has been historically used to having prescience to guide his actions. It's easy to be right when you can see the future. But come the heresy that has stopped working as a result of the actions of the Chaos Powers, and he's robbed of a clutch he's used for millennia. It doesn't surprise me he makes bad decisions as a result.

Kurnost wrote:
When Russ got his orders, Horus was still the Warmaster of the Great Crusade; the favoured son of the Emperor and first among the Primarchs. The Emperor was fighting a warp rift in his basement, created by Magnus. Getting a change of orders from the guy who now runs the Great Crusade isn't a weird thing at all. Unsettling, but the Wolves have killed Legions before. By the time they get back to the Emperor there's another 6 Legions turned traitor, there's still a deamon portal in the basement, and the Imperial forces cannot be trusted. Somewhere in there Mars go pear-shaped as the Mechanicum fight it out.

Adding to that, there's the basic army concept of "chain of command" (okay, I'm guessing how it's said in English, but alas). Having Horus as the Warmaster, unless it was a super secret mission, the Emperor wouldn't contact Russ directly, but Horus and expect him to relay his orders.

Where did it say that Horus ordered Russ to kill Magnus?

Even if that did happen, I still find it kind of odd that Russ would obey such an order, given how much the Horus Heresy novels have shown the rivalries between legions. I don't think the order to wipe out a legion could come from anyone but the Emperor.

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Where did it say that Horus ordered Russ to kill Magnus?

Even if that did happen, I still find it kind of odd that Russ would obey such an order, given how much the Horus Heresy novels have shown the rivalries between legions. I don't think the order to wipe out a legion could come from anyone but the Emperor.

its in a couple of different novels, plus Russ did decide to take it upon himself to try to censure the World Eaters, Angron even mocks him for being the self titled "executioner".

 Albino Squirrel wrote:

Even if that did happen, I still find it kind of odd that Russ would obey such an order, given how much the Horus Heresy novels have shown the rivalries between legions. I don't think the order to wipe out a legion could come from anyone but the Emperor.

It's been implied that Russ and the Vlka Fenryka had their hands in the obliteration of at least one of the missing legions. And yes, the order may as well have come form the Emperor, to his Warmaster. Then the Warmaster relied the order to Russ (or Russ may as well have believed).

Pretty much how here a Brigade General won't get his orders straight from the Chief of General Staff or the PResident, but from his Division General. At least that's how I can justify it.

 Formosa wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Where did it say that Horus ordered Russ to kill Magnus?

Even if that did happen, I still find it kind of odd that Russ would obey such an order, given how much the Horus Heresy novels have shown the rivalries between legions. I don't think the order to wipe out a legion could come from anyone but the Emperor.

its in a couple of different novels, plus Russ did decide to take it upon himself to try to censure the World Eaters, Angron even mocks him for being the self titled "executioner".

Like where? I've asked this before, and nobody could point to a source, except supposedly the most recent chaos marine codex, that says that the Emperor ordered Russ to capture Magnus, but Horus changed the order to kill him. I'd like to know where this is covered (if it is) in the Horus Heresy series.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dark wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:

Even if that did happen, I still find it kind of odd that Russ would obey such an order, given how much the Horus Heresy novels have shown the rivalries between legions. I don't think the order to wipe out a legion could come from anyone but the Emperor.

It's been implied that Russ and the Vlka Fenryka had their hands in the obliteration of at least one of the missing legions. And yes, the order may as well have come form the Emperor, to his Warmaster. Then the Warmaster relied the order to Russ (or Russ may as well have believed).

Pretty much how here a Brigade General won't get his orders straight from the Chief of General Staff or the PResident, but from his Division General. At least that's how I can justify it.

Well, a Brigadier General might question an order to attack another brigade in his own army. And the Primarchs operate pretty independently, so I find it hard to believe they'd be totally incapable of questioning an order from one of their brothers, whom they disagreed with all the time about almost everything.

Just a few qoutes from Inferno

The will of Horus
"At Beta-Garmon, Russ was not only met by those warriors of his own legion who had heeded his call, namely the battle-scarred warriors of the Third ninth and Eleventh Great Companies, but also by a detachment of warriors in the Sea-green armour of the newly anointed Sons of Horus. At the behest of the Warmaster himself these warriors were pledged to aid the wolf King in his dire task - their leader Overseer Boros Kurn, bore personal communications from Horus to his brother Leman Russ. The exact Contents of these missives have never been made available to scholars of the later Imperium indeed it is highly likely that no one other than Leman Russ and Horus themselves will ever know what arguments were brought to bear. But what is known now by the dire events which were to transpire on Prospero is that after viewing the contents of the Message and hearing the words of his brother Leman Russ let it be known among his sons that he no longer intended simply to capture Magnus but instead to see him slain."

The Hour of Execution

"In orbit, despite the insinuations of Horus Lupercal, Leman Russ conceded that he would not unleash the full destructive capabilities of his battle fleet without at least allowing his brother a chance to explain his apparent madness, Broadcasting from the Legio Custodes, the Oriflamme, the vox-Imperiosa - The sanctioned voice of the Silent Sisterhood and the Emperor's council of terra - proclaimed the writ borne by the fleet and called upon the Thousand sons and upon Magnus to answer for the crimes of which they were accused, to render himself unto the fleet or face the wrath of the Emperor.

Yet there was no answer, The fleet waited as Valdor entreated for further time with Russ on behalf of the accused Primarch to await a reply, but as Russ' fury steadily grew and as the ships of the fleet sat idle in space, still there was no answer. After almost a standard hour without work, neither to ask for forgiveness or to threaten resistance, nor even to acknowledge the fleet's presence, Leman Russ called an end to the efforts of diplomacy. incensed that Magnus would offer such an insult to his own brother, Russ gave the word and unleashed the firepower of the assembled Censure Host's fleet against the helpless planet below.

Prospero burned."

Well, that directly contradicts the events in the novel Prospero Burns. Given how terrible the Forge World writing is, I think I'll stick with what is in the Horus Heresy novels.