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 mrhappyface wrote:

 LeviathanSwarmlord wrote:
What about tyranid psychers? I don't know how powerful the loc is but zoanthrope broods and maleceptors are incredible psychers. Can somebody with knowledge of both please compare them?

There's only one instance of Daemons Vs Nids that I can think of and during that conflict the Daemons outmatched the Nids in all aspects except for resources: the Nids had a planet worth of biomass to fuel them whilst the Daemons had a large warp portal and that's it. The Nids just kept throwing bodies at the Daemons until the Nurgle Daemons were destroyed in an attempt to break the stailmate, the Tzeentch Daemons left because no souls were being reaped and the Slaanesh and Khorne Daemons were pushed back into the warp by a sea of a dead Nids.

No mention of the Daemons being affected by Nids warp abilities though and the LoC who lead the Tzeentch forces was not harmed by the Nids.

if you are talking about the Shadowbrink, then it is clearly stated there that the Shadow in the Warp blocked the forces of the Great Unclean One, and Lord Change simply went back to Warp


Automatically Appended Next Post:

darkoms wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 LeviathanSwarmlord wrote:
What about tyranid psychers? I don't know how powerful the loc is but zoanthrope broods and maleceptors are incredible psychers. Can somebody with knowledge of both please compare them?

There's only one instance of Daemons Vs Nids that I can think of and during that conflict the Daemons outmatched the Nids in all aspects except for resources: the Nids had a planet worth of biomass to fuel them whilst the Daemons had a large warp portal and that's it. The Nids just kept throwing bodies at the Daemons until the Nurgle Daemons were destroyed in an attempt to break the stailmate, the Tzeentch Daemons left because no souls were being reaped and the Slaanesh and Khorne Daemons were pushed back into the warp by a sea of a dead Nids.

No mention of the Daemons being affected by Nids warp abilities though and the LoC who lead the Tzeentch forces was not harmed by the Nids.

if you are talking about the Shadowbrink, then it is clearly stated there that the Shadow in the Warp blocked the forces of the Great Unclean One, and Lord Change simply went back to Warp
There is also a mention of the battle in which the Bloodthristher fought against the Carnifex, and the Zonthrops with the Lords of Change, but there are no specifics. Perhaps one Lord had several Zonthrops. The strongest psyker of tyranids are Maleceptors, perhaps they can defeat Lord 1 by 1

 Crimson wrote:

Table wrote:

Just because you say or think something does not make it true. I am asking you to back up your claim. Which you will not do. I cant go any further until you do. Because honestly at this point you come across as a eldar fanboy that is getting his feathers ruffled. And I do not mean that as a insult.
If you are going to make a blanket statement you need proof. You have none. Please educate me. Until that time I say eldar are no more powerful than human because I have yet to read any official lore stating this. And Black Library sadly does not count.

For the last time. Please provide proof to back your claim.

By quickly skimming the codex:

Codex Craftworlds
wrote: Beyond these physical superiorities, each of their race is also psychic to one extent or another; it is said the ancient Aeldari could read thoughts at a glance, whilst those who trained their minds for war could crush a foe’s weapon with a simple narrowing of the eyes. Even the complex technology of the craftworlds is based upon psychic engineering, the manipulation of and creation of matter using mental energies alone. But such raw power has its price.

Craftworld Ulthwé is home to many of the most powerful psykers in the galaxy.

The latent psychic talent of the Aeldari and the incredible discipline of the Asuryani combine to produce some of the most formidable psykers in the galaxy, capable of bolstering their allies, hindering their foes and unleashing raw destructive power.

Asking source for the Eldar being the most psychic race like is asking source for Orks being green.

None of what you have quoted has stated that Eldar are the most powerful psykers. We are not talking about Eldar "being the most psychic race". You are shifting the goal post here. Once more, in my desire for education, I ask you present proof to your statement that Eldar are the most powerful psykers. Please do not move the goal post.

"The latent psychic talent of the Aeldari and the incredible discipline of the Asuryani combine to produce some of the most formidable psykers in the galaxy" seems to do that.

pm713 wrote:
"The latent psychic talent of the Aeldari and the incredible discipline of the Asuryani combine to produce some of the most formidable psykers in the galaxy" seems to do that.

"Some of the most formidable"
"In the Galaxy"

That doesn't necessarily mean the average Farseer is source to some of the greatest psychic abilities in their own galaxy, let alone being able to contend with the psychic ability of warp beings. All this proves is that the Eldar race has the ability to produce extremely powerful psykers like Eldrad, however it is not suggested whether this is the exception or the rule.

 mrhappyface wrote:

pm713 wrote:
"The latent psychic talent of the Aeldari and the incredible discipline of the Asuryani combine to produce some of the most formidable psykers in the galaxy" seems to do that.

"Some of the most formidable"
"In the Galaxy"

That doesn't necessarily mean the average Farseer is source to some of the greatest psychic abilities in their own galaxy, let alone being able to contend with the psychic ability of warp beings. All this proves is that the Eldar race has the ability to produce extremely powerful psykers like Eldrad, however it is not suggested whether this is the exception or the rule.

Eldar became much weaker after the Fall. Azurmen notes that such as Eldrad almost never occur after the Fall. And this despite the fact that Eldrad holds back his power, as he uses runes.
As far as I know, the Eldar psykers before the fall were described as able to create and destroy stars.

darkoms wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

pm713 wrote:
"The latent psychic talent of the Aeldari and the incredible discipline of the Asuryani combine to produce some of the most formidable psykers in the galaxy" seems to do that.

"Some of the most formidable"
"In the Galaxy"

That doesn't necessarily mean the average Farseer is source to some of the greatest psychic abilities in their own galaxy, let alone being able to contend with the psychic ability of warp beings. All this proves is that the Eldar race has the ability to produce extremely powerful psykers like Eldrad, however it is not suggested whether this is the exception or the rule.

Eldar became much weaker after the Fall. Azurmen notes that such as Eldrad almost never occur after the Fall. And this despite the fact that Eldrad holds back his power, as he uses runes.
As far as I know, the Eldar psykers before the fall were described as able to create and destroy stars.

Well after Slaanesh's birth the Eldar gods were all either killed or reduced in a tremendous amount of power. The Eldar presence in the warp was almost quenched.

 Galas wrote:
I don't see where people get that Grey Knights are some uber psycher. They are strong psychers over-specialized in protection and banishement of daemons and trained to work together in rituals and as a team, but I have never seen stated for them to be specially powerfull compared with things like normal Librarians, individually, in relation to their psychic power.

Greyknights have a different recruiting process (A million planets psychic offerings compared to a space marine chapter home planet). Plus their training is different too. Essentially comparing a GK libby to a SM libby is like comparing real Madrid best players to some random college football team.

If we're being completely technical, no one can beat a Lord of Change unless Tzeench allows it to happen. By extension, ANYONE can if, again, Tzeench intends it. Being more powerful just makes it more inconvenient and challenging.

 Squidsy22 wrote:
If we're being completely technical, no one can beat a Lord of Change unless Tzeench allows it to happen. By extension, ANYONE can if, again, Tzeench intends it. Being more powerful just makes it more inconvenient and challenging.

You exaggerate the power of Tzeentch too much, he is not omnipotent

darkoms wrote:

 Squidsy22 wrote:
If we're being completely technical, no one can beat a Lord of Change unless Tzeench allows it to happen. By extension, ANYONE can if, again, Tzeench intends it. Being more powerful just makes it more inconvenient and challenging.

You exaggerate the power of Tzeentch too much, he is not omnipotent

Everything that has happened and will happen is all a part of Tzeentch's grand plan, even when Tzeentch is supposedly defeated, it is all done to serve a greater purpose.

darkoms wrote:
You exaggerate the power of Tzeentch too much, he is not omnipotent

Omnipotent? No, not at all. Omniscient, however, absolutely. He knows everything that could happen in infinite timelines, and is clever enough to subtly influence the state of the universe (which timeline he's in) Eons in advance to fulfill his schemes. Our only saving grace is that, as the lord of change and ambition, he will never allow himself (or his foes) any true and final victories. After all, if he had an end goal, he would inevitably reach it, and after that cease to exist; no longer having any ambition to chase or change to enact.

 Squidsy22 wrote:

darkoms wrote:
You exaggerate the power of Tzeentch too much, he is not omnipotent

Omnipotent? No, not at all. Omniscient, however, absolutely. He knows everything that could happen in infinite timelines, and is clever enough to subtly influence the state of the universe (which timeline he's in) Eons in advance to fulfill his schemes. Our only saving grace is that, as the lord of change and ambition, he will never allow himself (or his foes) any true and final victories. After all, if he had an end goal, he would inevitably reach it, and after that cease to exist; no longer having any ambition to chase or change to enact.

He is not omniscient, read the story of the origin of Kairos and the Well of Eternity

darkoms wrote:

 Squidsy22 wrote:

darkoms wrote:
You exaggerate the power of Tzeentch too much, he is not omnipotent

Omnipotent? No, not at all. Omniscient, however, absolutely. He knows everything that could happen in infinite timelines, and is clever enough to subtly influence the state of the universe (which timeline he's in) Eons in advance to fulfill his schemes. Our only saving grace is that, as the lord of change and ambition, he will never allow himself (or his foes) any true and final victories. After all, if he had an end goal, he would inevitably reach it, and after that cease to exist; no longer having any ambition to chase or change to enact.

He is not omniscient, read the story of the origin of Kairos and the Well of Eternity

But through Kairos he's almost omniscient and with Tzeentch's infinite wisdom that's good enough. There's the whole thing about Kairos telling one lie and one truth but i should think that the god of trickery and scheming is quick enough to catch which is which.

Chaos Gods aren't like the abrahamic Gods.

They are not omniscient not omnipotent. They aren't even free. All four of them are slaves of the rules of their own birth and nature. Khorne will never stop fighting, Tzeentch will never stop scheming, etc, etc...

The Sondheim fluff describes Lords of Change duelling with Zoanthropes, but that doesn’t mean the Zoanthropes we’re capable of winning. For Tyranids I imagine it’s a numbers game mostly: individual Zoanthropes will be thrashed, but in numbers a Lord of Change will be overwhelmed.

Neurothropes are just Zoanthropes with a soul siphon... if one managed to fill up and land a hit it may well knock a Lord of Change out... if it can land a hit.

Further up the chain is the Doom of Malan’tai. At a basic level it’s just a Neurothrope, but given a psychic food supply it could reach levels of power great enough to give just about anything pause for thought. Again, has to land a hit. I would think of it like a samurai fighting an angry Triceratops. If the Triceratops hits then it’s over, but the samurai is probably skilled enough to avoid being hit by many attacks.

Side note, it’s never been explored how Tyranid psychic siphons interact with Daemons. They can drain souls (which are just structured psychic energy) so perhaps a destabilised Daemon could find itself swallowed up and spat out as a Warp blast? Interesting notion.

I have left Maleceptors until last because they are the most interesting, and are the Tyranids’ most advanced anti-psyker weapon seen to date. A single Maleceptor was able to overwhelm Tigurius with minimal effort (until he channeled the light of the Astronomicon into its face through Malcador’s staff) and three together were able to crush Mephiston’s power so completely that he was effectively comatose for the rest of the Cryptus campaign. Maleceptors seem to be much more cunning in their attacks, wearing their prey down before delivering a killing blow. The Shadow in the Warp is weaponised, and it’s becoming increasingly well documented that the Shadow in the Warp can overpower Chaos (and vice versa, it’s a matter of who has greater resources on hand) so the psychic shadow tentacles Maleceptors can generate may be an ideal weapon to stab into a Daemon. Something we can hopefully see more of in the future...

 mrhappyface wrote:

darkoms wrote:

 Squidsy22 wrote:

darkoms wrote:
You exaggerate the power of Tzeentch too much, he is not omnipotent

Omnipotent? No, not at all. Omniscient, however, absolutely. He knows everything that could happen in infinite timelines, and is clever enough to subtly influence the state of the universe (which timeline he's in) Eons in advance to fulfill his schemes. Our only saving grace is that, as the lord of change and ambition, he will never allow himself (or his foes) any true and final victories. After all, if he had an end goal, he would inevitably reach it, and after that cease to exist; no longer having any ambition to chase or change to enact.

He is not omniscient, read the story of the origin of Kairos and the Well of Eternity

But through Kairos he's almost omniscient and with Tzeentch's infinite wisdom that's good enough. There's the whole thing about Kairos telling one lie and one truth but i should think that the god of trickery and scheming is quick enough to catch which is which.

It's also really easy to work out which head lies and ignore it from after that.

 Squidsy22 wrote:
He knows everything that could happen in infinite timelines

Except where Marbo is hiding, and how Marbo is going to kill him. Nobody ever sees Marbo infiltrating their pants and replacing their with a demolition charge.

pm713 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

darkoms wrote:

 Squidsy22 wrote:

darkoms wrote:
You exaggerate the power of Tzeentch too much, he is not omnipotent

Omnipotent? No, not at all. Omniscient, however, absolutely. He knows everything that could happen in infinite timelines, and is clever enough to subtly influence the state of the universe (which timeline he's in) Eons in advance to fulfill his schemes. Our only saving grace is that, as the lord of change and ambition, he will never allow himself (or his foes) any true and final victories. After all, if he had an end goal, he would inevitably reach it, and after that cease to exist; no longer having any ambition to chase or change to enact.

He is not omniscient, read the story of the origin of Kairos and the Well of Eternity

But through Kairos he's almost omniscient and with Tzeentch's infinite wisdom that's good enough. There's the whole thing about Kairos telling one lie and one truth but i should think that the god of trickery and scheming is quick enough to catch which is which.

It's also really easy to work out which head lies and ignore it from after that.

Who's to say the same head lies twice?

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

darkoms wrote:

 Squidsy22 wrote:

darkoms wrote:
You exaggerate the power of Tzeentch too much, he is not omnipotent

Omnipotent? No, not at all. Omniscient, however, absolutely. He knows everything that could happen in infinite timelines, and is clever enough to subtly influence the state of the universe (which timeline he's in) Eons in advance to fulfill his schemes. Our only saving grace is that, as the lord of change and ambition, he will never allow himself (or his foes) any true and final victories. After all, if he had an end goal, he would inevitably reach it, and after that cease to exist; no longer having any ambition to chase or change to enact.

He is not omniscient, read the story of the origin of Kairos and the Well of Eternity

But through Kairos he's almost omniscient and with Tzeentch's infinite wisdom that's good enough. There's the whole thing about Kairos telling one lie and one truth but i should think that the god of trickery and scheming is quick enough to catch which is which.

It's also really easy to work out which head lies and ignore it from after that.

Who's to say the same head lies twice?

I'm pretty sure it is the same head.

If it was so simple to discern it Big T would just gag it or something and only recorded the other one...

Lorgar, he defeated Fateweaver in "Aurelian". And that was right after he defeated Ann'grath the unbound. (Big bad, named Bloodthrister)

Tsilber wrote:
Lorgar, he defeated Fateweaver in "Aurelian". And that was right after he defeated Ann'grath the unbound. (Big bad, named Bloodthrister)

The Ruinous Powers also had a vested interest in Lorgar winning.

That said, Primarchs have a pretty good showing against Greater Daemons. Except for Sanguinius losing agianst Ka'banda that one time.

Any kind of Daemon already has the odds stacked against them for being named characters that can die without really dying. That's why I never count one on one fights between a Daemon and a mortal as cannon since the Daemon isn't allowed to win.

 mrhappyface wrote:
Any kind of Daemon already has the odds stacked against them for being named characters that can die without really dying. That's why I never count one on one fights between a Daemon and a mortal as cannon since the Daemon isn't allowed to win.

Funny thing is, this is technically not true. Daemons, even named ones, die all the time, being killed so hard their essence is gone. See M'kar for one big example.

 Irbis wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
Any kind of Daemon already has the odds stacked against them for being named characters that can die without really dying. That's why I never count one on one fights between a Daemon and a mortal as cannon since the Daemon isn't allowed to win.

Funny thing is, this is technically not true. Daemons, even named ones, die all the time, being killed so hard their essence is gone. See M'kar for one big example.

"All the time"

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/True_Death

6 in all of Warhammer 40k Lore. Of course I'm sure in the background, without names or mentions, theres more. But is not common to give True Death to a daemon.

 Irbis wrote:
If it was so simple to discern it Big T would just gag it or something and only recorded the other one...

They wouldn't because then there's no fun lore about "one head lies and one tells the truth."

 Galas wrote:
"All the time"

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/True_Death

6 in all of Warhammer 40k Lore. Of course I'm sure in the background, without names or mentions, theres more. But is not common to give True Death to a daemon.

Yes, all the time. Ask yourself a simple question, if it's possible to do for a mook Chapter Master or Inquisitor who don't really have a lot of anti-daemon training/knowledge, then it can't be that hard to do and people who actually know what they are doing, like GK or some Eldar, must find it a lot easier. Occam's razor, really.

Doubly so seeing almost all your examples are from last century of M41, so unless daemons hate that number for some reason, there had to be on average similar number of deaths in all of 100 centuries of IoM existence. We just didn't hear about them as most of 40K fiction was placed in M41.

 Galas wrote:


"All the time"

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/True_Death

6 in all of Warhammer 40k Lore. Of course I'm sure in the background, without names or mentions, theres more. But is not common to give True Death to a daemon.

I don't recall it ever being said that Kar'voth was permanently killed. The Daemons Draigo slew in the Warp returned.

I also don't know if it's confirmed that Prophantii permanently died or if it was only ever Eisenhorn susepcting it.

Irbis wrote:Yes, all the time. Ask yourself a simple question, if it's possible to do for a mook Chapter Master or Inquisitor who don't really have a lot of anti-daemon training/knowledge, then it can't be that hard to do and people who actually know what they are doing, like GK or some Eldar, must find it a lot easier. Occam's razor, really.

No, the Grey Knights do not have the capability to readily permanently destroy Daemons. If they did they wouldn't have trouble with Daemons returning to the Materium after being defeated.

It's incredibly rare for it to occur and often only in exceptional circumstances.

 Happyjew wrote:
Malcador: Bring out yer dead!
[Rogal Dorn appears with the Emperor slung over his shoulder]
Rogal Dorn: Here's one.
M: Nine pence.
Emperor: I'm not dead.
M: What?
RD: Nothing. [hands Malcador his money] There's your nine pence.
E: I'm not dead!
M: 'Ere, he says he's not dead.
RD: Yes he is.
E: I'm not.
M: He isn't.
RD: Well, he will be soon, he's very hurt.
E: I'm getting better.
RD: No you're not, you'll be stone dead in a moment.
M: Well, I can't take him like that. It's against regulations.
E: I don't want to go on the throne.
RD:' Oh, don't be such a baby.
M: I can't take him.
E: I feel fine.
RD: Oh, do me a favor.
M: I can't.
RD: Well, can you hang around for a couple of minutes? He won't be long.
M: I promised I'd be at Fenris. They've lost nine today.
RD: Well, when's your next round?
M: Thursday.
E: I think I'll go for a walk.
RD: You're not fooling anyone, you know. Isn't there anything you could do?
E: I feel happy. I feel happy.
[Malcador paces for an idea, then whacks the body with his club, solving the problem]
RD: Ah, thank you very much.
M: Not at all. See you on Thursday.
RD: Right.

This is the best thing I have read online all day!! Well done, man!!! Thank you for such an awesome laugh!

Who would win? I'm with Stan