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I'll admit it's been a while since I did multiple path probabistics so my maths might be a little rusty but it doesn't quite work out as simplistic as multiplying probabilities together.
I think it has a 68% chance of 1 wound 37% chance of 3 wounds and 11% chance of 3 wounds.
I can't remember how to do the maths for 2d6 pick the highest avarage but it I think it ends up as an avarage of somthing odd like 4.7 or such.
If you shoot T8 though the efficiency drops off a lot 55% of one wound 27% for two wounds and 6% for 3 wounds

 ServiceGames wrote:
While this is somewhat off topic for this thread, I have been very much in favor of GW turning over the rules part of the business to a company who has had more gaming experience and less modeling experience (like Fantasy Flight or WizKids). Unfortunately, that will never happen, but I just thin that FF or WizKids could write a more balanced ruleset for 40K and AoS (though AoS seems pretty solid right now, IMHO). Once FF or WizKids writes the rules, slap the GW label on it and sell it. While they wouldn't make as much money off indices, codices, dataslates, etc. this way, they'd still make more than enough... and people would enjoy a better gaming system.

SG

Lemme tell you what happened last time Wizkids games was handed control of a franchise I enjoyed. first of all they wrote a crappy click base game of it to replace the original classic game (thank god they where willing to lisence that out) this game was notedly inferior to their other click based game. they then futzed about with the lore making changed no one liked, and their rules designers/mini modelers didn't show a whole lot of deep abiding love for the lore. It was called Mechwarrior dark age, and it was garbage. yeah keep WK far away from any other game I like please and thank you. As for FFG, that's a great idea! we can instead of throwing buckets of discount dice, instead throw buckets of properitary dice that they over charge for!

yeah let's not put WK and FFG up on a pedestal they both have done some stinkers themselves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

So the Warglaive, at least, is intended to be able to tackle tougher fare so that they can protect the Knights themselves.

Ok, they are supposed to protect the knight, with meltas. So their intended targets are vehicles. How are they protecting a knight from enemy 48" range lascannons with their 30" range meltas ?

by moving up and providing a scary target for the anti armor armor on the table. an IK doesn't need to worry much about those generic guardsmen, it's the las predator and other armor crackers that are a concern. the armanger can eaither kill/soften them up, or at least draw their fire for a round.

another thing to consider is that we KNOW the actual box will have a additional sprue, BOLS has managed to prove it pretty convincingly. http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2018/03/40k-the-curious-case-of-the-missing-armiger-bits.html

 p5freak wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

"Melta" no longer is specific to combating vehicles.

So, they are going to kill infantry with their melta ? D3 shots are 2 shots on average, they score 1 hit, and 1 infantry model dies. Very impressive

You know there's multi-wound infantry with some pretty nice armor saves, yes?

Or, again:
Melta doesn't just combat vehicles anymore. Remember that the Melta rule previously was specific to vehicles and Armor Penetration. It's not anymore.

But I'm guessing you knew that and just wanted to be snarky when called out on making a ridiculous comment.

 Kanluwen wrote:

It has a weapon that lets it protect the Knight from high T gun platforms: tanks, monsters, and some fortifications.

And they're "protecting a knight from 48" range lascannons" by Advancing with their 14" move. On a 4? The Armiger has gotten within range on the target--on a 5 or 6, it's gotten closer than it needed to be to reach out and tag the target.

They hit on 4s after advancing. Thats 1 hit from 2 shots, doing 4 damage, if you manage to wound, and your target has no invuln sv. If they are within 15" from their high T gun platform targets its likely that they will get tied up in melee with enemy chaff.

They hit on 4s after Advancing. You say that like it's a dirty word.

Racerguy180 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
I dunno. Having multiple fast smaller knights running about is kind of what knights need. They themselves already have a lot of viable weapon loadouts. Having smaller guys that dont cost nearly as much but stick with the knight theme is pretty nice.

I guess that they're chaff for a knight? expensive chaff but none the less. I'd have hoped they were approx 200 with the loadout from the box cover.

That's pretty much their fluff role, yes. Armiger Warglaives are supposed to run ahead and kill enemy tanks so the big guys can rain destruction without finding themselves at the business end of a Leman Russ Tank Company.

Anyhow, bit more expensive than I hoped for, but I'm fine with it really. Don't forget they're FAST for being essentially a Dreadnought on steroids. If you play it smart these things might actually reach CC.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
What I want to know is what insane person looked at a knight list and said "you know what these puppies need, a unit with anti tank weapons to back it up!"

Knights have an awful time with hordes right now. This thing with something like a punisher cannon, assault cannons, or heck, even some sort of torrent style flamer like what the hellhound has, and these would fill a needed niche, be interesting, AND fill a lore friendly role. These guys are the serfs and servants. Their job should be clearing chaff and lesser opponents so their masters can gain the most glory fighting the biggest/baddest enemies on the battlefield. Why are they being sent ahead to kill high value targets? Isn't that what the knights should be doing?

THANK YOU! And yes that is what they are supposed to be doing, Knights exist for the hunt.

Yeah, that's why we have some Houses that decide who's in charge based on how many piddly Beastmen they kill while piloting a giant mech?

Honestly, I think people need to understand that:
A) The Armiger Warglaive is a specific loadout. There's no real debate about that at this point. The fact that the guns are on their own specific sprue should tell you this.
B) Armigers are an interesting concept if one looks at the origin of the word. It's Latin for "arms-bearer" and historically referred to an esquire(not a squire). These people had their own unique heraldic devices and were "above a gentleman but below a knight".

So these aren't just serfs and servants. These are individuals who have won the right to pilot an Armiger "suit" of armour. Heck, one just has to read the lore that GW themselves put out:

Armigers hearken back to an ancient martial tradition – that of a mounted lord hunting with his loyal bondsmen. While the prey may have gotten deadlier, and the hunt fiercer, the principle is the same, with pairs of Armigers guarding the flanks of their larger kin and ranging ahead to slay any potential threats to their lord.
To pilot an Armiger is an honour, albeit one much less prestigious than piloting a fully fledged Knight. For this reason, Armiger pilots are drawn from the lesser nobility of a Knight world, from distant cousins of the ruling House to commoners and lowborn uplifted by virtue of their exceptional talent for war.

So the Warglaive, at least, is intended to be able to tackle tougher fare so that they can protect the Knights themselves.

No you seem to have the same problem GW writers do . One example, one household looks to contain their homeworlds beastman problem through tradition, they all do that right? No. As for their Latin name you already forgot another interpretation of Armiger which is the MOST likely as the Armiger Knights do not actually have any heraldry, and that is "to take up knightly arms" as in the mini Knight itself and yes by your own quote they literally are serfs in some cases. As for the bondsman bit, they're there to ensure the success of a hunt and if that fails the safety of the lord.

 Quickjager wrote:

No you seem to have the same problem GW writers do . One example, one household looks to contain their homeworlds beastman problem through tradition, they all do that right? No.

Is it an example? Yes or no?

Sure, it doesn't mean "they all do it!"...but it's literally an example.

As for their Latin name you already forgot another interpretation of Armiger which is the MOST likely as the Armiger Knights do not actually have any heraldry, and that is "to take up knightly arms" as in the mini Knight itself and yes by your own quote they literally are serfs in some cases. As for the bondsman bit, they're there to ensure the success of a hunt and if that fails the safety of the lord.

1. (heraldry) A person entitled to bear a coat of arms.
2. A squire carrying the armour of a knight.

I have not been able to find anything about "taking up knightly arms". Also, with regards to heraldry--even the colors used on armor can be heraldic. There's whole disciplines devoted to this kind of stuff.

I honestly think you're going to be unhappy with this no matter what. That can't be helped if it is the case This is something that actually fills a niche, you don't like it? Then don't run Superheavy Detachments if you have points cost issues.

BrianDavion wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

So the Warglaive, at least, is intended to be able to tackle tougher fare so that they can protect the Knights themselves.

Ok, they are supposed to protect the knight, with meltas. So their intended targets are vehicles. How are they protecting a knight from enemy 48" range lascannons with their 30" range meltas ?

by moving up and providing a scary target for the anti armor armor on the table. an IK doesn't need to worry much about those generic guardsmen, it's the las predator and other armor crackers that are a concern. the armanger can eaither kill/soften them up, or at least draw their fire for a round.

another thing to consider is that we KNOW the actual box will have a additional sprue, BOLS has managed to prove it pretty convincingly. http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2018/03/40k-the-curious-case-of-the-missing-armiger-bits.html

First off absolutely agree with the contracting out rules point, I don't think it would go well either after recent dealings with FFG. X-Wing has become very bloated in my opinion and I really don't care for proprietary dice or templates in any system.

However, for it to be a scary target it needs to be an actual threat. The average guard list would consider this thing a joke. Oh no, I'm going to take a couple of melta shots on a tank almost half the cost of this thing before it charges some guardsmen and gets held up for 3 or 4 turns, whatever will I do?

Even if it rolled perfectly the guard player will almost guaranteed come out ahead on a points trade by taking the hit, screening the charge, then falling back and lighting it up next turn. And that's just guard, several other codexes like nids or orks could pull similar tricks. Heck a few nobs with PK's would tear this thing a new one and they're not even that good, much less dedicated elite assault infantry like what blood angels can throw around. It's essentially an imperial version of the distraction carnifex, just not as good. If it was say 200pts that'd be a lot more fair, but at 240 it pays far too much with a glaring weakness that EVEN GW noticed, that even a handful of cheap infantry stop it dead in it's tracks.

But we're mainly talking this weapon variant. If this thing gets a dakka version with Gatling cannons, some sort of thunderstrike gauntlet or even better an antihorde assault weapon, it could get a new lease on life even at it's current points, but it desperately needs some sort of help. Heck, even an "explodes on a 4+" rule like the hellhound has would be a benefit at this point.

BrianDavion wrote:

 ServiceGames wrote:
While this is somewhat off topic for this thread, I have been very much in favor of GW turning over the rules part of the business to a company who has had more gaming experience and less modeling experience (like Fantasy Flight or WizKids). Unfortunately, that will never happen, but I just thin that FF or WizKids could write a more balanced ruleset for 40K and AoS (though AoS seems pretty solid right now, IMHO). Once FF or WizKids writes the rules, slap the GW label on it and sell it. While they wouldn't make as much money off indices, codices, dataslates, etc. this way, they'd still make more than enough... and people would enjoy a better gaming system.

SG

Lemme tell you what happened last time Wizkids games was handed control of a franchise I enjoyed. first of all they wrote a crappy click base game of it to replace the original classic game (thank god they where willing to lisence that out) this game was notedly inferior to their other click based game. they then futzed about with the lore making changed no one liked, and their rules designers/mini modelers didn't show a whole lot of deep abiding love for the lore. It was called Mechwarrior dark age, and it was garbage. yeah keep WK far away from any other game I like please and thank you. As for FFG, that's a great idea! we can instead of throwing buckets of discount dice, instead throw buckets of properitary dice that they over charge for!

yeah let's not put WK and FFG up on a pedestal they both have done some stinkers themselves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

So the Warglaive, at least, is intended to be able to tackle tougher fare so that they can protect the Knights themselves.

Ok, they are supposed to protect the knight, with meltas. So their intended targets are vehicles. How are they protecting a knight from enemy 48" range lascannons with their 30" range meltas ?

by moving up and providing a scary target for the anti armor armor on the table. an IK doesn't need to worry much about those generic guardsmen, it's the las predator and other armor crackers that are a concern. the armanger can eaither kill/soften them up, or at least draw their fire for a round.

another thing to consider is that we KNOW the actual box will have a additional sprue, BOLS has managed to prove it pretty convincingly. http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2018/03/40k-the-curious-case-of-the-missing-armiger-bits.html

The anti armor armor is going to have no difficulty just shooting the Knight as the Armigers are going to be tied up in close combat by 40 point infantry units the entire game unless they stay outside of melta bonus range. This thing needs a fall back from infantry and charge rule so bad it's not even funny.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

No you seem to have the same problem GW writers do . One example, one household looks to contain their homeworlds beastman problem through tradition, they all do that right? No.

Is it an example? Yes or no?

Sure, it doesn't mean "they all do it!"...but it's literally an example.

As for their Latin name you already forgot another interpretation of Armiger which is the MOST likely as the Armiger Knights do not actually have any heraldry, and that is "to take up knightly arms" as in the mini Knight itself and yes by your own quote they literally are serfs in some cases. As for the bondsman bit, they're there to ensure the success of a hunt and if that fails the safety of the lord.

1. (heraldry) A person entitled to bear a coat of arms.
2. A squire carrying the armour of a knight.

I have not been able to find anything about "taking up knightly arms". Also, with regards to heraldry--even the colors used on armor can be heraldic. There's whole disciplines devoted to this kind of stuff.

I honestly think you're going to be unhappy with this no matter what. That can't be helped if it is the case This is something that actually fills a niche, you don't like it? Then don't run Superheavy Detachments if you have points cost issues.

It isn't an example of them doing it in battle. So no it ISN'T an example for your own point. And the niche they fill is so... specific it isn't worth mentioning. If you want one Lord of War you take the Superheavy Auxiliary detachment, if you want two Lord of Wars you have to take a second Superheavy Auxiliary; this unit doesn't solve that specific problem. BUT there is a workaround if you are willing to pay 230-247 points you can free up the 2nd detachment by bringing one of these. So now you have 2 detachments left for your remaining.... less than a 1000 points (assuming 2000 points)? This is assuming you wanted to run the cheapest superheavies in the game which I think is 2 Knight Gallants and the cheapest Armiger.

Look if you have literally run out of things to say feel free to walk away, but if you are going to defend it don't be surprised a one liner from you doesn't turn my worldview around.

EDIT: And yes I am aware of how heraldry works how the colors are incorporated etc. But you ignore that colors are used to denote allegiance moreso than acting as a personal crest. Otherwise there are a lot of peasants and guards who got knighted without them realizing it.

Pandabeer wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
I dunno. Having multiple fast smaller knights running about is kind of what knights need. They themselves already have a lot of viable weapon loadouts. Having smaller guys that dont cost nearly as much but stick with the knight theme is pretty nice.

I guess that they're chaff for a knight? expensive chaff but none the less. I'd have hoped they were approx 200 with the loadout from the box cover.

That's pretty much their fluff role, yes. Armiger Warglaives are supposed to run ahead and kill enemy tanks so the big guys can rain destruction without finding themselves at the business end of a Leman Russ Tank Company.

Anyhow, bit more expensive than I hoped for, but I'm fine with it really. Don't forget they're FAST for being essentially a Dreadnought on steroids. If you play it smart these things might actually reach CC.

Yes they might make CC.
Where the then spend the rest of the game fighting against a unit of Guard/Cultists/Guardians/Whatever chaff the enemy has.

Its a lot of points for a unit that gets stuck in chaff.

I think it's not fair to use the guard as a measuring stick for new units. if you compare new units to the most OP stuff out there, you SHOULD always be dissappointed.

BrianDavion wrote:
I think it's not fair to use the guard as a measuring stick for new units. if you compare new units to the most OP stuff out there, you SHOULD always be dissappointed.

But they are the bar for being competitive.

Martel732 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I think it's not fair to use the guard as a measuring stick for new units. if you compare new units to the most OP stuff out there, you SHOULD always be dissappointed.

But they are the bar for being competitive.

sure if by compeitive you mean "let's find the most broken stuff in the game and spam it"

These things look like a joke even for BA, due to their pricetag. We don't even have to bring up IG.

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I think it's not fair to use the guard as a measuring stick for new units. if you compare new units to the most OP stuff out there, you SHOULD always be dissappointed.

But they are the bar for being competitive.

sure if by compeitive you mean "let's find the most broken stuff in the game and spam it"

Yes, by competitive they mean exactly "Use the best, most optimized units in the strongest way possible."

Just because someone wants to play competitively does not make them a villain. Play with your dolls however you'd like, stop mocking those who use theirs differently.

BrianDavion wrote:
I think it's not fair to use the guard as a measuring stick for new units. if you compare new units to the most OP stuff out there, you SHOULD always be dissappointed.

Admech's own other units are hardly the 'the most OP stuff out there.'

Im going to assume they will need synergy from strats while using other units to expose holes in the bubblewrap. Run 1 Knight and 2 armiger's have other units for anti infantry. Expose the armor charge with armiger's and follow with the Knight.

It's a faster and slightly tougher dreadnought at a prohibitive price point. It would be viable at a lower cost, dreadnoughts are dysfunctional mainly because of their low speed.

Confirmed at adepticon that more armigers are coming with different options.

I think the Armiger needs another weapon mount. If the Cleaver arm has a integrated stubber, or flamer, it would be a much more viable design.

A knight needs protection from enemy infantry, its his job to take out enemy high T targets. His escort needs anti infantry guns, not meltas. Like twin AC and stormbolters.

If i want to protect a knight i would pick two contemptor mortis dreads with twin kheres assault cannons. Each has 12 shots, S7 AP-1 D1 hitting on 3+ after moving (2+ when standing still). And only 156 pts. each.

In the bigger picture, my bet is that there are other models that will server as protection for the knights in the upcoming codex.

The armiger will no doubt have its place.

My philosophy with the Armiger will be wait and see. You could see the points change in the new Dex. You could see that they could be equipped with some other weapon options that might let them live up to a higher point potential.

For example, the Thermal lance as far as I know is a new weapon, but it’s really a middle ground from the Multimelta and a thermal cannon

If there was a middle ground between a Onslaught Gatling and a Avenger Gatling cannon, that might be a nice design space to see, and might justify the points to me.

Armigers with each arm a mini Avenger Gatling Cannon will be a nice anti-infantry option. I have no doubt the Armigers will be released properly with different options.

It's also possible that the IK codex will include units that may not necessarily be Knights themselves but support units etc.

I think w the 14" movement and assault classification on the spear, they can run up on light vehicles (rhino/razors, etc) and smack them down in shooting and melee.

but fosho twin asscans would kick ass for anti-infantry. I would assume a decent amount of loadouts/weapons to come in the codex.

I'm really excited to build & paint them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:
A knight needs protection from enemy infantry, its his job to take out enemy high T targets. His escort needs anti infantry guns, not meltas. Like twin AC and stormbolters.

If i want to protect a knight i would pick two contemptor mortis dreads with twin kheres assault cannons. Each has 12 shots, S7 AP-1 D1 hitting on 3+ after moving (2+ when standing still). And only 156 pts. each.

I guess it depends on which knight loadout you are protecting. a warden or magera might have diff needs.